155 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 27 June 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

And don't forget AMS, especially when NARC is fired from max range, can shoot down the NARC missile. And it works even better with the AMS range and overload modules.

About a couple of weeks ago i couldn't figure out why it took 8 shots to get a NARC to stick, then i remembered AMS

[Galenit]

nemesis271989, on 27 June 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

Look there is nothing that may counter NARC, if being hit by NARC in Caustic Valley or Alpine Peak you are done, because majority of clan mechs carry LRMs 30+ at least. So with a single NARC rocket you are removing an enemy mech from the game. How is that fair?

Do you have AMS? Then the narcing light needs to get more near then 450m.
Do your allys have AMS, then the narcing mech needs to go toe on toe with you to stick it to you.

No counters?
The nearest ecm mech counters the narc for you. (This can be countercountered by narcing the ecm mech too or using counterecm or bap or an uav.)
Or you can power down for the time you are narced. (This can be countercountered by an enemy with bap)

BUT you dont know by yourself that you have this little beacon on your ass.

And thats what should be adjusted, not the time of the narc or something else.
Just make one of the unused monitors flash a narc warning and let betty say something about it.

[ztac]

Yes it is widely known about LRM, but PGI say LRM are in a good place right now (translation :- overpowered), and seem to like it that LRM is now used more than PPC's ever were when they got nerfed all the way back last year! You will as allways see a lot of people defending LRM as they use them and really don't want their easy mode turned off!

It is fun being on the LRM heavy teams, it is not fun dying to LRM fire in 6 seconds flat! , the fact that the 'get behind cover answer does not work 9/10 times as LRM seem to magically go over a lot of cover.Not to mention things like Narc and Tag that just make things worse.
Also as long as someone sees you then the radar deprivation mod won't work, ECM is hit and miss, a lot of games my teams have had no ECM present , or the guy with the ECM dropped or quit because of the horrible maps in play.
Massed ams is not overly effective either, and the ams mods don't look that great either (not to mention that in one game whilst having 4k ams rounds my ams ran out in the first 3 minutes of game play as my ams was almost permanently on due to the mass of missiles!)

[Varent]

Galenit, on 27 June 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

Do you have AMS? Then the narcing light needs to get more near then 450m.
Do your allys have AMS, then the narcing mech needs to go toe on toe with you to stick it to you.

No counters?
The nearest ecm mech counters the narc for you. (This can be countercountered by narcing the ecm mech too or using counterecm or bap or an uav.)
Or you can power down for the time you are narced. (This can be countercountered by an enemy with bap)

BUT you dont know by yourself that you have this little beacon on your ass.

And thats what should be adjusted, not the time of the narc or something else.
Just make one of the unused monitors flash a narc warning and let betty say something about it.

well said

ztac, on 27 June 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Yes it is widely known about LRM, but PGI say LRM are in a good place right now (translation :- overpowered), and seem to like it that LRM is now used more than PPC's ever were when they got nerfed all the way back last year!

I would take lrm spam over jump sniping any day of the week.

[nemesis271989]

Galenit, on 27 June 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

Do you have AMS? Then the narcing light needs to get more near then 450m.
Do your allys have AMS, then the narcing mech needs to go toe on toe with you to stick it to you.

No counters?
The nearest ecm mech counters the narc for you. (This can be countercountered by narcing the ecm mech too or using counterecm or bap or an uav.)
Or you can power down for the time you are narced. (This can be countercountered by an enemy with bap)

BUT you dont know by yourself that you have this little beacon on your ass.

And thats what should be adjusted, not the time of the narc or something else.
Just make one of the unused monitors flash a narc warning and let betty say something about it.

I do carry AMS all the time and AMS is always busy shooting down the LRM spray don't even take into consideration that AMS would save you from NARC missile.

[Pygar]

All apologies...the Clan mech I have been flying the most (that I was looking forward to the most) just seems to work best for me as a missile boat. (might change after targeting computer becomes active)

I would say if anything, the Clans influencing the LRM trend is mostly due to missile launchers being so easy (light) for them to mount...in fact, a lot of Clan mechs have builds that that already come with them, and if you try to strip them off, it is then really hard to replace the lost firepower...so it's easier just to leave them on even if they aren't the most efficient way to deal damage.

Aside from that- I have a new theory about LRMs to add to the discussion about them here. I don't really think LRMs are the most efficient way to kill the enemy in MWO, but I do see a tendency for LRMs to make people angry that other weapons just can't match- all the people that complain about LRMs here are more than likely getting 'sploded in games by direct fire weapons too, and probably more often than they do with LRM- but it's the one time that they do get popped by LRMs that makes them come charging on down to forum land to let everybody else know about it...anybody else see this?

Edited by Pygar, 27 June 2014 - 08:14 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I understand the frustration. I've been taken from 100% to 40%, side torso gone and almost legged, in a Warhawk, by the time I could get to cover. Yes it is frustrating, but it doesn't happen all the time, so you just have to move on, and try to stay close to cover if you spot a NARCer or see lots of lurms flying around. It is pretty easy to tell when the enemy team has lots of lurms, as soon as they get LoS you basically see all the lurms they have fly into they air.

[Fut]

Galenit, on 27 June 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

And thats what should be adjusted, not the time of the narc or something else.
Just make one of the unused monitors flash a narc warning and let betty say something about it.

Would love to see one of those [AUTO DETECT: No Signal] do something for a change!

Wonder how many complaints there'd be that the warning isn't in an obvious enough location though.

Edited by Fut, 27 June 2014 - 08:09 AM.

[nemesis271989]

DYSEQTA, on 27 June 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

I am inclined to agree with the shorter duration seeing as what made NARC useless before was the damage cap. No the cap is gone the duration should be shorter.

Finally, at least one person who agrees that problem exits.
Thank you man

[Spheroid]

The OP is so incorrect its not even funny. Today's battlefield is choked with air-defense Kitfoxes and Atlas-DCs.

I work my ass off in my Jenner-K. I expect to be well compensated.

Edited by Spheroid, 27 June 2014 - 08:13 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I don't understand the "I would take LRM spam over jump sniping any day" argument. Why would you rather have to worry about an unseen fat mech (or multiple), using no piloting skills or aiming (just positioning, i.e. hiding) lobbing missiles upon missiles at you while you are trying to engage other mechs then actually pit your skill against someone else's?

[Billygoat]

I think I've been killed by LRMs maybe.. once? in the past week. And the way they were pouring into me I was almost certainly NARC'd, so fair cop.

Taken serious damage from them maybe twice aside from that and I've been playing more than usual with the Clan stuff dropping.

I don't even bother with AMS in most of my builds since it's just so rarely necessary. If I see a missile warning, I get behind something and then listen to them splat harmlessly onto a rock.

LRMs are weak and I really don't understand all the fuss.

[Bilbo]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 June 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

I don't understand the "I would take LRM spam over jump sniping any day" argument. Why would you rather have to worry about an unseen fat mech (or multiple), using no piloting skills or aiming (just positioning, i.e. hiding) lobbing missiles upon missiles at you while you are trying to engage other mechs then actually pit your skill against someone else's?

The LRM carriers do a pretty good job of keeping the jump snipers ground bound while my slow *** gets into position to bring the pain in a more brawly fashion.

[Dolph Hoskins]

If you would prefer to die in other ways I'm sure you could step out of cover where direct fire toting players would deliver your mech to the scrap heap in perhaps a more favorable fashion?

These forums....they are just too much.

[Pygar]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 June 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

I don't understand the "I would take LRM spam over jump sniping any day" argument. Why would you rather have to worry about an unseen fat mech (or multiple), using no piloting skills or aiming (just positioning, i.e. hiding) lobbing missiles upon missiles at you while you are trying to engage other mechs then actually pit your skill against someone else's?

I call bullshit. I fly both LRM and direct fire boats....and you can stop patting yourself on the back for "aiming" right now. Especially now with RDM adding to the web of ECM and AMS in many matches, getting LRM boats to do effective damage takes work, and many LRM pilots use TAG which does require actual aiming as well. (Getting locks with Clan mechs already requires more "aiming" than you think too... and it requires holding that aim for a lot longer than I would have to with a PPC/Gauss/AC mech. )

Edited by Pygar, 27 June 2014 - 08:21 AM.

[Varent]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 June 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

I don't understand the "I would take LRM spam over jump sniping any day" argument. Why would you rather have to worry about an unseen fat mech (or multiple), using no piloting skills or aiming (just positioning, i.e. hiding) lobbing missiles upon missiles at you while you are trying to engage other mechs then actually pit your skill against someone else's?

Because LRMS are easy to counter. AMS, ECM, Proper use of cover, Proper use of tacticts and not just running across open ground. Hell just being outside of 1000 meters counters lrms. And that doesnt even take into account the fact that its just spread damage and not precise damage.

The same does not hold true for jump sniping, More range, Ability to focus the damage where you want it, no ability to actually counter it with anything, inability to actually react to it properly since jump snipers even in close can fight fairly well and all of the jump sniping builds are vastly superior and more versatile then any missle boat.

Missle boats die when you get up onto them, its just a fact, very few of them can fight in close worth a damn. Sadly people in pugs just dont know how to handle them and so they die and die stupidly. There is a reason why in high elo you simply dont see missles and you see lots and lots of jump snipers, its simply better in every way. You see it at lower elo with missles because people dont understand how to use cover, done bring ams, dont group up and rush open ground.

So yes, any day of the week, id take missles over jump snipers.

Billygoat, on 27 June 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

I think I've been killed by LRMs maybe.. once? in the past week. And the way they were pouring into me I was almost certainly NARC'd, so fair cop.

Taken serious damage from them maybe twice aside from that and I've been playing more than usual with the Clan stuff dropping.

I don't even bother with AMS in most of my builds since it's just so rarely necessary. If I see a missile warning, I get behind something and then listen to them splat harmlessly onto a rock.

LRMs are weak and I really don't understand all the fuss.

Every once in awhile ill get killed by them. Its always my own fault for getting to far away from the group or not positioning correctly.

[nemesis271989]

Pygar, on 27 June 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

All apologies...the Clan mech I have been flying the most (that I was looking forward to the most) just seems to work best for me as a missile boat. (might change after targeting computer becomes active)

I would say if anything, the Clans influencing the LRM trend is mostly due to missile launchers being so easy (light) for them to mount...in fact, a lot of Clan mechs have builds that that already come with them, and if you try to strip them off, it is then really hard to replace the lost firepower...so it's easier just to leave them on even if they aren't the most efficient way to deal damage.

Aside from that- I have a new theory about LRMs to add to the discussion about them here. I don't really think LRMs are the most efficient way to kill the enemy in MWO, but I do see a tendency for LRMs to make people angry that other weapons just can't match- all the people that complain about LRMs here are more than likely getting 'sploded in games by direct fire weapons too, and probably more often than they do with LRM- but it's the one time that they do get popped by LRMs that makes them come charging on down to forum land to let everybody else know about it...anybody else see this?

It is all because that clan's equipment is lighter, that makes clanners pack a lot of LRMs + some lasers (the number of lasers is still larger than an IS mechs can carry).

[Ultimax]

Varent, on 27 June 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

It wasnt stated as a complaint towards you. It was stated that 'people' may be complaining and that they have no right to. Its a fact that the clans have limitations that can be overcame but dumb down their power. Its balance.

Fair enough, I misunderstood the intent of your comment. Thanks for extrapolating.

Pygar, on 27 June 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Aside from that- I have a new theory about LRMs to add to the discussion about them here. I don't really think LRMs are the most efficient way to kill the enemy in MWO

They aren't but they are probably one of the best ways to soften opponents (attrition damage) on mechs that are incapable of jump sniping.

Pygar, on 27 June 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

but I do see a tendency for LRMs to make people angry that other weapons just can't match

It has to do with primarily these factors, imo.

1) The screenshake and smoke is a bit over the top. If you go and peruse any PvP gaming forum, ever, you will undoubtedly find endless threads complaining about weapons/powers that create any kind of physical/visual state of control effects that can be maintained for fairly long durations (such as "stun-lock" or perma knock-down/prone).

2) Very often the inability to fire back at your attacker. With direct fire weapons, you have to have made a severely bad mistake for one or more opponents to all have line of sight to you, and you have zero line of sight to them. When you can at least see your opponent, you get to go down fighting.

3) Indirect Fire allows for massed coordination on a target, without any real coordination amongst the team. This means not only will LRMs rain down on you, there is a chance they are raining down on you from multiple angles creating a situation where even cover can be denied unless you are under a structure (or a tunnel, etc).



All 3 of these factors all magnify the state of having low agency in what is happening to you, a feeling that you have lost control of your mech. This is the psychological factor that I feel most likely drives the frustration for many players.

I think #1 could, and should be toned down. This is low hanging fruit.
#2 requires a revised LRM vs. LRM counters system to address IDF.
#3 would be alleviated to an extent by #2, beyond that it's fair game. They out played you.

[Mercules]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 June 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

I don't understand the "I would take LRM spam over jump sniping any day" argument. Why would you rather have to worry about an unseen fat mech (or multiple), using no piloting skills or aiming (just positioning, i.e. hiding) lobbing missiles upon missiles at you while you are trying to engage other mechs then actually pit your skill against someone else's?

See... ignorance is bliss. I have a friend that pilots a good deal of Firesupport mechs that use LRMs. I can tell you, Launching LRMs is not as easy as you seem to pretend it is.

Situational awareness is everything in a dedicated LRM mech. You have to know what targets are actually worth locking by keeping an eye on the mini map so you know who is most likely holding the lock and can see when they might lose it. You have to know the terrain between you and the mech you are firing on because 80 missiles into the side of a building does nothing for you or your team. You have to do this while keeping close to the team since an LRM mech alone is an LRM mech asking for someone to come kill him.

Launching LRMs is easy, actually getting them to hit the enemy isn't. It takes timing, awareness, and a bit of intuition.

[Wolfways]

ztac, on 27 June 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Yes it is widely known about LRM, but PGI say LRM are in a good place right now (translation :- overpowered)

AT YOUR ELO RANGE!

It's people that can't be bothered to learn to play and think they are already MWO gods that stops PGI making LRM's a viable weapon in mid ELO and higher.

If you (anyone) think LRM's are even slightly a problem then you are nowhere near as good as you think you are. You are low ELO or being carried by your team in a higher ELO range.