104 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 27 June 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

I read quite well. But you dont make avery fair comparison. U are basically ignoring clan range advantages, weapon advantages (stuff IS doesnt even have, targeting computers, all lbx/uac, increased ppc advantage...)

Sorry but a 55ton mech should be more agile than a 70 ton mech

Actually, I have ignored none, but keep telling yourself that. Especially since most of the effective weapons between both chassis, IE, ER PPC and LRMS have the exact same range.

Also targeting computer is of minimal use in most Summoner builds, and simply further eats up tonnage it does not have to spare.

Keep trying?

Ultimatum X, on 27 June 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

1) It's called an exception. Just like all of the Omni-pod quirks we have, all the mech chassis quirks we have.
2) Warhawk has 10 added DHS (not 20). Yes it's a lot but at least on builds using energy/missiles, DHS have value. There is no practical use for 5x JJs. And I don't see you lobbying daily that built into chassis DHS like the Warhawk has should be more awesome either - or that everyone else's added DHS should get nerfed to compensate.
3) Nerfing the effectiveness of Omni-JJs means nothing for the Summoner. It is still only as good as, and arguably worse than, a Shadowhawk or Griffin. Then you'd need to go and nerf every single IS JJ in the game as well, to ... make the summoner less bad.


So feel free to hold fast to arbitrary rules and also cherry picking which arbitrary rules you like (like quirks) and which ones you deem slippery slope, but nerfing other things will not save the summoner.

What the summoner needs is one, simple thing.

Usable Tonnage.


It will not get that without bending the rules a bit, you could remove JJs completely from the Timber Wolf and the Summoner is still a lemon.

It has 20 total DHS. Which is I believe, what I said. Never said anything about 20 extra. And it's a bad exception that sets a bad precedent.

[Roadkill]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 June 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

and how does 2.5 tons of free space that didn't exist before NOT break the stock model?

A 67.5-ton Summoner is a legal build.

A 72.5-ton Summoner is not.

PGI could, at least in theory, make weapons lighter or reduce the number of crit slots that they occupy and not break Stock builds. They'd be funny looking to TT-purists, but they'd technically still be legal.

They cannot increase weapon tonnage or increase crits, though, because that does break Stock builds. If you ever modified the Mech you would be unable to put it back to Stock.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roadkill, on 27 June 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

A 67.5-ton Summoner is a legal build.

A 72.5-ton Summoner is not.

PGI could, at least in theory, make weapons lighter or reduce the number of crit slots that they occupy and not break Stock builds. They'd be funny looking to TT-purists, but they'd technically still be legal.

They cannot increase weapon tonnage or increase crits, though, because that does break Stock builds. If you ever modified the Mech you would be unable to put it back to Stock.

Still breaks the stock build mold. Because I can make just as good an argument for the extra DHS in a the Warhawk being a detriment. Especially since it totally locks up my left torso.

[Roadkill]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 June 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

Still breaks the stock build mold. Because I can make just as good an argument for the extra DHS in a the Warhawk being a detriment. Especially since it totally locks up my left torso.

Not sure I'm following your reasoning.

Half-weight JJ don't actually break anything. Sure it means the Summoner Prime would technically be underweight in stock form in MWO, but it would still be a stock Mech and a valid, legal build. If you modded it, you could put it back to stock without any trouble.

You could give the Warhawk half-weight DHS without breaking anything, too, if you really wanted to. It would mean that the stock Warhawk Prime would only use 80 tons of it's 85-ton limit, but that's still a valid, legal build.

I'm not arguing for either change, just pointing out that it's at least a valid theoretical option because it doesn't actually break anything. It just makes some things look/feel weird to us TT vets.

[mogs01gt]

One thing the OP missed is heat advantage. IMO that is huge since Clan mechs typically win the war of attrition.

I really want to get the Summoner once its release for CBills but why would I want to pilot the mech when the more agile Griffin exists? IMO those two are the best looking mechs in the game but IMO the hitboxes of the summoner should be improved.

[Bishop Steiner]

mogs01gt, on 27 June 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

One thing the OP missed is heat advantage. IMO that is huge since Clan mechs typically win the war of attrition.

I really want to get the Summoner once its release for CBills but why would I want to pilot the mech when the more agile Griffin exists? IMO those two are the best looking mechs in the game but IMO the hitboxes of the summoner should be improved.

Do you own Clan Mechs? 90% of them are overheat boxes. Summoner a little less, unless you make heavy use of PPC or UAC20s or tons of missiles.

[mogs01gt]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 June 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Do you own Clan Mechs? 90% of them are overheat boxes. Summoner a little less, unless you make heavy use of PPC or UAC20s or tons of missiles.

We arent talking about other clan mechs. We are comparing the Summoner to the Griffon. the Summoner is more efficient with more firepower with similar builds. Yes the Summoner has poor required hardpoints but the tonnage allows it to be more heat efficient. Heat efficiency cannot be ignored.

Same builds:
GRF-1S

SMN-PRIME

I agree totally the Summoner needs "something", I say better hitboxes like the old Cents had or better heat efficiency over other clans. I dont know but it needs something.

Edited by mogs01gt, 27 June 2014 - 12:47 PM.

[Anakha]

I still say you just let us upgrade the Summoner to Endo Steel IS and lessen the number of fixed heat sinks down to 2 and I think that would balance out the chassis just fine. My 2 cents.

[Alistair Winter]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 June 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

In closing, calling it an oversized, clumsier Griffin really does seem apropos.

I agree with the premise of this thread. It is indeed unacceptable.

When PGI has done something about all the hideously underpowered IS mechs, I hope they fix the Summoner. It's a pity that the Mad Cat is so OP, because I would have used that mech even if it was the worst mech in the game. And I'm sure others would have too. It's kind of like Jedi in a Star Wars MMO. Everyone wants to be a Jedi anyway, but when the Jedi are actually overpowered, expect 99% of all players to roll as Jedi.

I'm kind of happy that the Puma isn't better than it is, because it's one of my favourite mechs, and I'm glad I'll be one of the few people willing to play it. Now I can just hope that PGI makes a total mess of the Mad Dog, so I can have that for myself too.

And thanks for teaching me a new way of using the word 'apropos' in English

[GreyGriffin]

ThomasMarik, on 27 June 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

Aparantly Nikolai Malthus is like the second coming of Lu Bu

Do not pursue Nikolai Malthus.

[El Bandito]

If PGI gives the Summoner more love, I sure as hell not complain about it. Planning to get the mech once it comes out anyway.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 June 2014 - 01:51 PM.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 June 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

It has 20 total DHS. Which is I believe, what I said. Never said anything about 20 extra.

OK, guess that is what you meant.

The 10, true 2.0, that are engine are irrelevant though, they don't add weight or eat crit slots.

Bishop Steiner, on 27 June 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

And it's a bad exception that sets a bad precedent.

So is nerfing every other jump jet in the game so that the Summoner (and others) can look slightly less bad by comparison.


The devs allowed for manipulating armor values for balance reasons. This would be a tweak to specific chassis, for balance reasons.

If you want a precedent for changing "stock" builds, it already exists in that example.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 27 June 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

OK, guess that is what you meant.

The 10, true 2.0, that are engine are irrelevant though, they don't add weight or eat crit slots.





So is nerfing every other jump jet in the game so that the Summoner (and others) can look slightly less bad by comparison.


The devs allowed for manipulating armor values for balance reasons. This would be a tweak to specific chassis, for balance reasons.

If you want a precedent for changing "stock" builds, it already exists in that example.

It doesn't nerf every other JJ in the game. I nerfs the slapdash, strap on Omni Podd JJs on Clan Omni Mechs, SLIGHTLY. It does nothing to affect "every mech in the game".

Because atm there is no down side. At all. But if a TimberWolf S had a jump profile closer to the Victor, instead of a Cataphract, the JJs would still be well worth having, but not an OBVIOUS and undeniable upgrade over the Summoner, or using any other TWolf torso for that matter. Because by core Mechanics, you have to take all 5 on the Summoner, and because they are hardwired, they should be. But IF Omni JJ Pods were slightly less efficient, it would not be game breaking for them to be available on ALL Omni Chassis, whereas now, they blatantly are.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 June 2014 - 02:11 PM.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 June 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

It doesn't nerf every other JJ in the game. I nerfs the slapdash, strap on Omni Podd JJs on Clan Omni Mechs, SLIGHTLY. It does nothing to affect "every mech in the game".

Because atm there is no down side. At all. But if a TimberWolf S had a jump profile closer to the Victor, instead of a Cataphract, the JJs would still be well worth having, but not an OBVIOUS and undeniable upgrade over the Summoner, or using any other TWolf torso for that matter. Because by core Mechanics, you have to take all 5 on the Summoner, and because they are hardwired, they should be. But IF Omni JJ Pods were slightly less efficient, it would not be game breaking for them to be available on ALL Omni Chassis, whereas now, they blatantly are.

What I mean is, all IS JJs effectively function like Omni Pods.

Why would only Clan Omni JJ pods be less efficient?

Why does the IS end up with the superior tech, that is also not hardwired?


This doesn't seem like a good design direction at all.


And lastly, this still would not solve the problem. At all.


If we had never gotten the Timber Wolf S variant, the Summoner would still be a complete dud.



This was obvious from the day the clan mech hardpoints/configs were posted on the clan site.



So you should ask yourself, do you want a real valuable solution or do you want a false solution that just makes you feel a bit better but doesn't actually solve any of the issues the Summoner has.

That was the point of this thread right, comparing it to the Griffin after all - the real issues the Summoner has.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 27 June 2014 - 03:11 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 27 June 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

What I mean is, all IS JJs effectively function like Omni Pods.

Why would only Clan Omni JJ pods be less efficient?

Why does the IS end up with the superior tech, that is also not hardwired?


This doesn't seem like a good design direction at all.


And lastly, this still would not solve the problem. At all.


If we had never gotten the Timber Wolf S variant, the Summoner would still be a complete dud.



This was obvious from the day the clan mech hardpoints/configs were posted on the clan site.



So you should ask yourself, do you want a real valuable solution or do you want a false solution that just makes you feel a bit better but doesn't actually solve any of the issues the Summoner has.

That was the point of this thread right, comparing it to the Griffin after all - the real issues the Summoner has.

Because while the Mechlab doesn't make a distinction, (because our mechlab is dumb) the IS mechs with JJs are very specific. You cannot take a non jumping mech and add JJs. How many jumping Atlases do you see? The fact that our mechlab lets you tear out or run on partial hardwired JJs notwithstanding, in IS mechs, technically EVERYTHING is hardwoired.

I know what I want, a fix that solves an issue not JUST for Summoners, but across the board for future omni mechs, and have concisely explained the problem, and the easiest, most sensible fix. I am not looking myopically at one chassis, but a systemic problem. Not all of the Summoner's issues are SOLELY an issue for the Summoner, just as Poptarting and jump mechanic issues don't SOLELY affect Dragon Slayers.

And yes, because the lack of WolfTarts would not impact the usefulness of the Summoner, at all. *rolls eyes*

We have layers of issues here, and blindly focusing on one thing, or even chassis, as the "cure" will not fix what needs fixing.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 June 2014 - 04:10 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

1

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 June 2014 - 04:10 PM.

[Creovex]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 June 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

Actually, I did not, I mentioned the extra toughness of the Clan XL.
And with inferior hitboxes, it is still often a paper advantage. Also, I simply use a GRF-1S i have equal energy hardpoints, and better missiles. So no, Still wrong.

Perhaps you are jsut not very good at reading?

Can you explain the better missle comment? I only run streaks on Summoners for obvious reasons and IS would need 3M (3x SSRM2) to my Thor's 1M (1x SSRM6)

Also... as a Mech that fits the Clan LBX20 in 1B hardpoint while IS needs 2B for 2x LBX 10 to equate....I see the Thor as slotted/optioned to put on the larger, single hardpoint weapons... yieldin IMO ... some hit and run benefits....

IMO and this not nowhere going near graphing (I like the game but save statistics for my day job) some advantages that are overlooked by some arguing "more hardpoints = better".... which might be true if BOTH factions had the same weapons but availability difference factors in big time to the balance equation.

Thoughts? (I enjoy CONSTRUCTIVE discussions)

Edited by Creovex, 27 June 2014 - 04:34 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Creovex, on 27 June 2014 - 04:25 PM, said:

Can you explain the better missle comment? I only run streaks on Summoners for obvious reasons and IS would need 3M (3x SSRM2) to my Thor's 1M (1x SSRM6)

Clan LRMs, I suppose I should have specified since everyone wants a speed SRM Griffin. Clan LRMs are fired in a stream of missiles, easily wiped out by AMS. IS LRMS are clumped together and are harder to kill with AMS and all hir at the same time.

And I would rather run 3 SSRM2 over a single SSRM6, thought the clan SSRM2s are superior, because SSRM6 have the worst cooldown speed in the game at 7 seconds. Even just running 2 SSRM2s (like my GRF-1N does) you have a DPS of 2.28 vs 1.71 for the SSRM6. Running 3 Clan SSRM2s, you end up with 3.42 DPS, or double the effective firepower of a single SSRM6. Of course, hardpoints are an issue for the summoner, so running 2-3 smaller racks may not be `practical (one of the issues I noted) but even then, I'd rather use a standard SRM6 or one with Artemis, as it has a DPS of 3.0, still better than the SSRM6 (and I don't for my own playstyle find a single SSRM6 much deterrent to Lights)

I am by no means saying the Summoner holds no advantage in this comparison, as the Clan's much lighter weapon tech is a significant factor (though again, that is the tech, not the chassis, which is outgunned by anything packing it's own tech), but that it is seldom as cut and dried as so many people think it to be, upon first blush. A whole lot of factors make many clan "advantages" not as hugely advantageous as some would claim.

Just my 2ct.

[Creovex]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 June 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

Clan LRMs, I suppose I should have specified since everyone wants a speed SRM Griffin. Clan LRMs are fired in a stream of missiles, easily wiped out by AMS. IS LRMS are clumped together and are harder to kill with AMS and all hir at the same time.

And I would rather run 3 SSRM2 over a single SSRM6, thought the clan SSRM2s are superior, because SSRM6 have the worst cooldown speed in the game at 7 seconds. Even just running 2 SSRM2s (like my GRF-1N does) you have a DPS of 2.28 vs 1.71 for the SSRM6. Running 3 Clan SSRM2s, you end up with 3.42 DPS, or double the effective firepower of a single SSRM6. Of course, hardpoints are an issue for the summoner, so running 2-3 smaller racks may not be `practical (one of the issues I noted) but even then, I'd rather use a standard SRM6 or one with Artemis, as it has a DPS of 3.0, still better than the SSRM6 (and I don't for my own playstyle find a single SSRM6 much deterrent to Lights)

I am by no means saying the Summoner holds no advantage in this comparison, as the Clan's much lighter weapon tech is a significant factor (though again, that is the tech, not the chassis, which is outgunned by anything packing it's own tech), but that it is seldom as cut and dried as so many people think it to be, upon first blush. A whole lot of factors make many clan "advantages" not as hugely advantageous as some would claim.

Just my 2ct.

Great analysis.... my favorite build for example is 3xSSRM6 and 2xERLL. ... weapon group 1 is 2xERLL together, group 2 is 3x SSRM6 chain firing and group 5 is 3x SSRM6 together. Due to play style group 5 is only used on Mechs as they turn. This focuses the 18 missle salvo into a narrower spread to impact arm or leg.... thus making considerable focus fire and damage on less sections. In cases like this I find my play style with this build tearing off arms through smart consolidation of available impact sites. Something the non-streaks cannot do and thus negating the refire time concerns...

Thoughts?

Edited by Creovex, 27 June 2014 - 04:43 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Creovex, on 27 June 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

Great analysis.... my favorite build for example is 3xSSRM6 and 2xERLL. ... weapon group 1 is 2xERLL together, group 2 is 3x SSRM6 chain firing and group 5 is 3x SSRM6 together. Due to play style group 5 is only used on Mechs as they turn. This focuses the 18 missle salvo into a narrower spread to impact arm or leg.... thus making considerable focus fire and damage on less sections. In cases like this I find my play style with this build tearing off arms through smart consolidation of available impact sites. Something the non-streaks cannot do and thus negating the refire time concerns...

Thoughts?

If it works for you, go for it! For me, I would still prefer SRM6s, because of the much better cooldown meaning I can get more missiles on target, usually better grouped than the SSRMs, allow. Down side, of course, is I miss, I miss, no homing. Upside, is I am not at the mercy of ECM, either.

So dependant on playstyle and the group dynamic (if any) you play in!