114 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Prologue: I am a meta user, I am effective in it, I use it with much success. I do not enjoy it.

Here is the meta, in plain English for those of you who are not sure:
Long Range PP damage. (Either PPCs/Guass or PPCs/ACs)
Jumpjets
Artillery Strikes.

Effect on game-play (at competitive Elo)
A jumping wave of TBRs, DSs, and CTFs. (Sometimes Highlanders..) Arty Striking everything there is.
I have seen more entertainment in watching paint dry.

Do not get me wrong, I love to win, and I play to do so.. but I want my win to involve some diversity. A slow game of watching the same 4 mechs jump around shoot across obstacles is not diversity.

---------------------------------

Here is a big step in changing it:

Drop the rate of fire on PPCs and Gauss. Drop it by half, or almost half.

Reason: Currently, especially in IS mechs, the Metabuild can be used as effectively at brawling as it can be sniping- so there is minimal risk in bringing it. (reg PPCs generate negligible heat when using DHS)

A shorter range mech can arrive and put out a little more DPS due to weapon weights, but SRMs are splash, not PP, and AC20s simply get blown off by mechs shooting just as rapidly as it would.

I equate this meta to a skewed CoD scenario (because that is a large part of this game is..)
Imagine a Sniper Rifle in CoD, accurate at range, that was fully automatic like an Assault Rifle.

Why would you bring anything else?
Up close and personal: Commensurate.
At range: Unchallengeable.

--------------------------------

Second change:
Increase the Global Cooldown on Arty/Airstrike to 30 seconds.
Make the Arty/Air Strike take 2 module slots.

Still can be effective, but you actually have to trade something to use it.

[Pygar]

Arty is already falling out of the "meta"...I am using it or seeing it used a little, but not like it was before the nerf- it's barely worth the Cbill cost/Module slot now.

"Scalar Falling Damage", is a backhanded nerf to JJet builds that skimp on Jets for bigger guns. (which is over 90% of "meta" builds) I am not very confident in this nerf... I just don't think it's direct enough- in fact it may be possible for the intended targets to ignore this while other pilots who weren't "pop tarting" end up feeling the pain instead. Guess we'll find out tomorrow.

[Spheroid]

Your post is outdated. Weight matching and jump jet nerfs are almost here. Plus I see tons of different builds since the Buckton fix and Clan release.

If there was really a meta problem it would be nothing but Dragonslayers every match. That is simply not the case.

Edited by Spheroid, 01 July 2014 - 09:50 AM.

[Tsig]

Any extra damage for no weight will always be worth it. Therefore, Arty Strike will be here to stay in competitive games.

[YueFei]

Spheroid, on 01 July 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

Your post is outdated. Weight matching and jump jet nerfs are almost here. Plus I see tons of different builds since the Buckton fix and Clan release.

If there was really a meta problem it would be nothing but Dragonslayers every match. That is simply not the case.

Buckton fix is not a cure-all for SRMs.

Currently, even with missiles at 2.15 damage per missile, ASRM6s have a TTK 23% faster than AC5 for the same tonnage, and higher crit slot and hardpoint investment in SRMs. At 90 meters range. On a stationary front-facing Awesome in the Testing Grounds. And generates 250% of the heat to do it, so if your target is twisting, turning, jumping, you can find yourself overheating with those SRMs well before you can drop it dead, requiring you to slack your rate of fire and giving up any TTK advantage. Even with Artemis in my launchers, I can see missiles occasionally hitting arms and legs on the Awesome. It's like WTF.

McGral repeated these tests at 20 meters, it makes no difference, so face-hugging won't change anything.

Currently, if you have a choice between 2xAC5, or 4xASRM6, you're better off with the AC5s. You have more than twice the range, higher projectile speed, greater damage-per-heat, and less crit slots and less hardpoints used.

Even if SRMs had 100% perfect hitreg, they currently don't offer enough advantage over AC5s within the range band where SRMs *should* be vastly superior.

SRMs ought to kill things dead twice as fast as AC5 does at close range, considering AC5 has more than double the range. Why do brawlers take tremendous risks, with closing through long range enemy fire, with proximity to the enemy once engaged (making it more difficult to pull away for a breather or to drop from the enemy's focus fire)..... only to be rewarded with a paltry 23% TTK advantage once they're in range? An advantage that you probably won't see come to fruition against a moving and defensively shielding target?

SRM spread should be changed to a cone pattern so that as you get closer, the damage concentrates more and more. At point-blank range, SRMs should be a better investment per tons/crits/slots compared to any other weapon in the game.

Edited by YueFei, 01 July 2014 - 10:09 AM.

[Livewyr]

Pygar, on 01 July 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

Arty is already falling out of the "meta"...I am using it or seeing it used a little, but not like it was before the nerf- it's barely worth the Cbill cost/Module slot now.

"Scalar Falling Damage", is a backhanded nerf to JJet builds that skimp on Jets for bigger guns. (which is over 90% of "meta" builds) I am not very confident in this nerf... I just don't think it's direct enough- in fact it may be possible for the intended targets to ignore this while other pilots who weren't "pop tarting" end up feeling the pain instead. Guess we'll find out tomorrow.

Arty is definitely not out of the meta- just got out of a match a little while ago with some of the top players (Proton for example) and I saw 5 arty strikes inside a minute of combat.

The JJ nerf will effect the meta only slightly, depending on how strong it is. The falling damage will hurt non JJ mechs more than anything. (no way to mitigate falling off a cliff or intentionally dropping down it. You will see those most noticeably in Canyon and Tourmaline )

The meta will remain- there just might be slightly less jumping. (The JJ heat nerf will hit the Twolf the hardest, as it has no low-heat alternatives.)

Spheroid, on 01 July 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

Your post is outdated. Weight matching and jump jet nerfs are almost here. Plus I see tons of different builds since the Buckton fix and Clan release.

If there was really a meta problem it would be nothing but Dragonslayers every match. That is simply not the case.

Perhaps you missed where I said: "Competitive Elo."

At low pop times, when I get shoved with whoever the MM can find- I do find all sorts of builds.

(Sorry for the harsh tone, but nondescript anecdotes are annoying.)

Tsig, on 01 July 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

Any extra damage for no weight will always be worth it. Therefore, Arty Strike will be here to stay in competitive games.

That may be, but having to trade 2 modules just for one, might lessen the attractiveness.

Edited by Livewyr, 01 July 2014 - 10:13 AM.

[Artifact]

The absurd lengths people go to to avoid the obvious makes me laugh.

Want to fix the metagame? It's simple:add a slight degree of uncertainty about where PPC bolts/AC rounds/Gauss shots will go. It doesn't have to be much -- few minutes of angle will emulate TT rules, and spread damage around at range. When a mech is airborne, double the degree of uncertainty.

Problem solved, now pay me a massive consulting fee.

Edited by Artifact, 01 July 2014 - 10:18 AM.

[Spheroid]

@Livewyr: They are not going to design the game around what is good for high ELO. That doesn't make any business sense. Surely you can see that. Right?

[Livewyr]

Artifact, on 01 July 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

The absurd lengths people go to to avoid the obvious makes me laugh.

Want to fix the metagame? It's simple:add a slight degree of uncertainty about where PPC bolts/AC rounds/Gauss shots will go. It doesn't have to be much -- few minutes of angle will emulate TT rules, and spread damage around at range. When a mech is airborne, double the degree of uncertainty.

Problem solved, now pay me a massive consulting fee.

That is cute. I love rolling digital dice to see if I am accurate or not. Screw the whole reticle thing.

(That works in TT because mechs are effectively *not* moving when you shoot.)

Spheroid, on 01 July 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

@Livewyr: They are not going to design the game around what is good for high ELO. That doesn't make any business sense. Surely you can see that. Right?

I am discussing balancing the game at a mechanical level. (High Elo bracket is an example of people playing closer to the mechanical level.)

Simple mechanics, apply risk versus reward, and come out with: Long Range fire that does not pay anything for its advantage.
What do you think the logical choice is, to use, in order to win?

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Livewyr, on 01 July 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

(The JJ heat nerf will hit the Twolf the hardest, as it has no low-heat alternatives.)

Last I heard this was being shelved until they looked at thrust for other classes of jump jets.

Edited by Rouken, 01 July 2014 - 10:31 AM.

[Livewyr]

Rouken, on 01 July 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

Last I heard this was being shelved until they looked at thrust for other classes of jump jets.

That is true.

[WarHippy]

Tsig, on 01 July 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

Any extra damage for no weight will always be worth it. Therefore, Arty Strike will be here to stay in competitive games.

If this were true, and I will point out that it isn't we wouldn't have seen them unused for so long before they were buffed. They were almost entirely unused when they were much lower in damage, and it is why they upped the damage to 40. Just lowering the damage to 35 and messing with the splash area and spread has caused a significant decrease in their use, and a change as laughable as the OPs would assure they would never be used again short of them doing 80+ damage per shell.

Edited by WarHippy, 01 July 2014 - 10:38 AM.

[Artifact]

PGI has avoided the obvious (and only) solution forever because people like you can't accept the idea that sometimes, s$^& happens and you miss.

The ridiculous nerf cycles we've seen since closed beta with PPCs and ACs and heat sinks could all have been avoided with making fire slightly inaccurate. No one is happy with the current meta. Let's try a fix that has been proven effective in tons of games before this one.

Edited by Artifact, 01 July 2014 - 10:41 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Spheroid, on 01 July 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

@Livewyr: They are not going to design the game around what is good for high ELO. That doesn't make any business sense. Surely you can see that. Right?

It's only good "business" if they have the player base to support a high volume of high elo players. Im using LoL as an example. Most of their original balancing was base around champ vs champ, now its mostly what and how ELO players are using certain champs + items.

[Pygar]

Livewyr, on 01 July 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

Arty is definitely not out of the meta- just got out of a match a little while ago with some of the top players (Proton for example) and I saw 5 arty strikes inside a minute of combat.

Interesting- I can see how it might still be good if spammed, but I know for me personally I have gotten rid of it on most my PUG builds....with the way players are using LRM in PUG matches, UAV is a much better way to break stalemates for the same price right now.

This is one of those situations where I can't tell if the balance problem is the actual gear or the fault of the pilots- High ELO "meta" seems to fall into spamming things a lot.

[Gyrok]

Spheroid, on 01 July 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

Your post is outdated. Weight matching and jump jet nerfs are almost here. Plus I see tons of different builds since the Buckton fix and Clan release.

If there was really a meta problem it would be nothing but Dragonslayers every match. That is simply not the case.

Hmm...you have lots of confidence...perhaps the pool you swim in has different fish in it...the meta has gone nowhere...

[Livewyr]

Artifact, on 01 July 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

PGI has avoided the obvious (and only) solution forever because people like you can't accept the idea that sometimes, s$^& happens and you miss.

The ridiculous nerf cycles we've seen since closed beta with PPCs and ACs and heat sinks could all have been avoided with making fire slightly inaccurate. No one is happy with the current meta. Let's try a fix that has been proven effective in tons of games before this one.

How exactly does one miss where his laser is pointed at?

[Livewyr]

Pygar, on 01 July 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

Interesting- I can see how it might still be good if spammed, but I know for me personally I have gotten rid of it on most my PUG builds....with the way players are using LRM in PUG matches, UAV is a much better way to break stalemates for the same price right now.

This is one of those situations where I can't tell if the balance problem is the actual gear or the fault of the pilots- High ELO "meta" seems to fall into spamming things a lot.

In my bracket, LRMs are rarer (due to being supplanted by jumpsnipers) so I removed the UAVs from my mechs.

Edited by Livewyr, 01 July 2014 - 11:08 AM.

[Ultimax]

Livewyr, on 01 July 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

How exactly does one miss where his laser is pointed at?

The target moves. You move. Something steps between you and the target.

Lasers not delivering their entire payload instantly are prone to damage loss and therefore missing.

As a recoil-less weapon, they lose out on that advantage due to this games cannons not having any recoil.

I don't want artificially created misses, but perfect convergence of multiple weapon systems and 0 recoil are clearly problematic with regards to TTK.

We're not firing 1 rifle while stationary, we are firing 2 or 3 huge cannons all at once, hitting a dime while jumping in a giant robot. 30 tons of cannons should not all hit a single pinpoint.


Addressing those two factors is better than nerfing the RoF on Gauss Rifles and PPCs because this is not CoD and those are not "sniper" weapons. Armlock is problematic, and exasperates the issue.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 01 July 2014 - 11:14 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Livewyr, on 01 July 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

I equate this meta to a skewed CoD scenario (because that is a large part of this game is..)
Imagine a Sniper Rifle in CoD, accurate at range, that was fully automatic like an Assault Rifle.

LOL, you mention a Fully automatic sniper rifle? You dont look to CoD, no...you look to battlefield bad company 2, they literally have EXACTLY that.....

Its the Sniper's VSS Vintorez...its a pin point accurate, low drag, sniper rifle machinegun...and yes, its absurdly OP lol.


As for arty strikes, you know how to balance that? Make it where the only guy who can use one is the Lance and Company leaders. Cuz any tom **** and harry isnt going to have access codes to artillery batteries and air power.

And the PPC/GR, make em chain fire only...then you cant fire 80 points of dmg while poptarting lol. Make Lasers the overtime damage that is more accurate, easier to aim and is able tobe group fired. PPC/AC/GR, only chain fire to counter act the PPFLD nature of those weapons. So they deal 15/10 or w/e dmg in 1 go.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 01 July 2014 - 11:17 AM.