162 replies to this topic

[Dymlos2003]

Mavairo, on 02 July 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

You really don't play mechs without jump jets do you?

Most of my mechs don't have jumpjets. I just know how to pilot them

[Lefteye Falconeer]

'Mechs are not made to slide/roll/crawl down slopes, and that's why they have jumpjets which are still incredibly useful. It was wrong before. This is a great gamechanger, all you need to do is adapt to the new playstyle which affects EVERYONE.

[Mavairo]

Dymlos2003, on 02 July 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

Most of my mechs don't have jumpjets. I just know how to pilot them

Would you like a demo video?
Because I'm going to call bull that you can jump down the canyons without the ramps without JJ and not take damage.
I'll show you some examples, of VERY commonly required escape routes and the varying grades of slope you still take leg damage on.

Edited by Mavairo, 02 July 2014 - 04:00 PM.

[LobsterPete]

YueFei, on 02 July 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

The planes also pull 9 g's sustained with no issue.

Top Gear dropped a Toyota Hilux in a building demolition from 73 meters. It survived and drove away.

A mech can't handle 2.5 g's of shock without hurting itself now?

Fine, toss realism aside for a moment. Is it aesthetically sensible for a drop that's less than waist-height to hurt a mech?

This nerf hurts the non-JJ mechs more than the JJ-mechs, because they can't even feather their falls.

My head can sustain a few hundred g's and still be ok, if it's only for a millisecond or so. In football impacts, around 100 g's seems to be the magic number for injury, but those are around 20 msec or longer in duration. Woodpeckers can slam their head into a tree for a few hundred g's over and over and be ok.

Looking at g's might not be best way to determine injury. What really breaks things is the force applied, so using F=ma, g's are only half the equation. You also really need to know the mass of the object, how long is this force applied to the object, what is yield strength of material taking the load, what is the cross-sectional area of the load bearing members... Something big and heavy coming down and stopping almost instantaneously is going to have a lot more stress on the legs than some sort of cushion that spreads out all the energy over a second or so. If you can distrubte the load in either area or time then you can keep your stress under the breaking point.

So something very big and heavy dropping not very far but stopping very quickly could definately break something. But these are all just magical stompy robots so trying to bring logic into if something is possible is not is kind of a moot point anyways. If we wanted to be more realistic mechs wouldn't have ablative armor.

[Sephlock]

Dymlos2003, on 01 July 2014 - 05:13 PM, said:

With this being added next patch there is going to be a huge wave of threads saying that it is broken. It's not. For once people have to watch where they pilot especially light pilots. Legs will be hurting. Do You expect an out cry?

You guys better start practicing feathering your falls. It's going to be an interesting patch day.

Somehow I suspect that when people suggested increased fall damage as a fix they had poptarting Victors in mind and not Locusts playing Dukes of Hazzard.



God only knows why they decided to nerf the damage mitigation module so severely for light mechs.

Maybe they were afraid that the 3 second Jenner would become a poptart?

Or worse! FEAR THE POPTART SPIDER! OP-ness never felt so squirrely!

Edited by Sephlock, 02 July 2014 - 04:01 PM.

[Dymlos2003]

Mavairo, on 02 July 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

Would you like a demo video?
Because I'm going to call bull that you can jump down the canyons without the ramps without JJ and not take damage.
I'll show you some examples, of VERY commonly required escape routes and the varying grades of slope you still take leg damage on.

Hence I know how to pilot them. I don't jump down stuff unless it is needed.

[Mavairo]

Dymlos2003, on 02 July 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Hence I know how to pilot them. I don't jump down stuff unless it is needed.

You must play in a very strange world if the need to traverse terrain very quickly isn't required.
You never did answer my question, at what point is nerfing the Ground Pounders a good idea, when it does nothing to JJ mechs?

[Hellcat420]

Lefteye, on 02 July 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

'Mechs are not made to slide/roll/crawl down slopes, and that's why they have jumpjets which are still incredibly useful. It was wrong before. This is a great gamechanger, all you need to do is adapt to the new playstyle which affects EVERYONE.

actually, mechs are made to slide/roll/crawl/climb up and down slopes in lore(well, mechs with hands can climb).

[Deathlike]

Mavairo, on 02 July 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

You must play in a very strange world if the need to traverse terrain very quickly isn't required.
You never did answer my question, at what point is nerfing the Ground Pounders a good idea, when it does nothing to JJ mechs?

Assume worst case Elo.

[Dymlos2003]

Mavairo, on 02 July 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

You must play in a very strange world if the need to traverse terrain very quickly isn't required.
You never did answer my question, at what point is nerfing the Ground Pounders a good idea, when it does nothing to JJ mechs?

I know my maps, strats for each build, and positions. It's not hard to do. Look you might have a hard time playing jumpjetless mechs. I do not.

[Mavairo]

Dymlos2003, on 02 July 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

I know my maps, strats for each build, and positions. It's not hard to do. Look you might have a hard time playing jumpjetless mechs. I do not.

Riiiiight.
You do realize most of my mechs are not JJ equipped, and that many of the locations that did not generate fall damage before, do so now right?

And that in order to enact quick escapes particularly on canyons will generate fall damage without JJ right?
Guess not.
Sure, there's places you can exit down IF YOU GO SLOW. Here in lay the problem... you're going to slow your mech down, and take more than twice as long to go down into the canyons and get your ass shot up to pieces in the process.
Where as billy joe bob, with JJs can just hop on down there like the good old days feather the JJ one time, and take zero fall damage, and actually end up down there waiting for you before you get down.

So, Answer The Question. At what point was nerfing ground game based mechs a good idea, when JJ mechs were unaffected? (unless piloted by a complete moron)
Who honestly feels that the ground pounders were any where near the same league as JJ mechs? Do you feel that way? Especially with all of the hill scale nerfs, the introduction of canyons in the first place.
Do you really feel that a JJ mech of equivalent speed is in anyway shape or form truly lacking compared to a NON JJ counterpart? Did you really feel it was necessary to nerf the ground mechs, and NOT the JJ ones?

Have you not been paying attention to what mechs have been meta the last year +?

Here is part 1 of the Falling Damage Extravaganza
https://www.youtube....e&v=7pu_UYrqdno

Part 2 will feature more common required jump off points, for both offensive and defensive fighting, and will include a JJ mech for comparison.

Edited by Mavairo, 02 July 2014 - 04:22 PM.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 01 July 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

I have immortalized this concept into meme format:

This still cracks me up, and I've seen you post it like a dozen times week.


My favorite line?

[YueFei]

Pygar, on 02 July 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

Yeah, tbh I don't even care about the physics.... I don't like the idea of non-jump jet mechs suddenly getting a "nerf" unintentionally because PGI wants to do something to Jump Snipers, but doesn't want to do the easy fixes. (like just making Jump Jets a fixed item that cannot be stripped.)

I voiced my concern and pointed out that this would happen in their feedback thread. A Centurion running *halfway* up the ramp on HPG to the top platform, and then dropping down, will hurt his legs. Like, you reach 40 ft/sec falling (why is that gauge in ft/sec anyway, it should be in meters/sec for metric). That's not even at the top of the ramp.

The threshold is set waaay too low. It should be at least 1 mech height for aesthetic reasons. A human can drop almost twice his height without injury. We can use a Centurion's height as baseline. That's 14 meters. We can set the threshold at 15 meters of fall height, which would be a fall of 1.732 seconds, hitting at a speed of 17.32 meters/sec. Or just make it a nice round number at 18 meters/sec vertical impact speed is the point at which leg damage begins to happen.

That's an easy number to tune. Currently that value is roughly 10 meters/sec. Someone at PGI just needs to open an XML file and change it to 18 meters/sec.

Of course, just because the fix is *easy* and sensible doesn't mean PGI will actually do it.

Quote

OK now we're talking...because "pop tarts" are the intended target here- while I think that Jump Sniping should be possible, the fact that 95% of "pop tart" builds skimp on Jets for bigger guns bothers me....nobody ever ever did that prior to MWO.

Honestly I don't think it'll affect the jump snipers that people should worry about. The bad ones, who jump suuuper high unnecessarily (because they're not that quick and need time to find a target and line up the shot), yeah they'll wreck their legs. The good ones make the shortest jump possible, because when you first tap spacebar you get a very fast initial lift-off, so that gets you out of cover faster, leaves you exposed for a shorter amount of time. Those guys will have plenty of fuel left for landing.

The *only* thing fall damage revamp should've been trying to do is to avoid disproportionately punishing Light mechs. The problem before was the flat amount of damage caused regardless of the mech's tonnage. Losing 1 HP on your legs isn't a big deal when you have 65 armor and 34 internals. But losing 1 HP on your legs when you only had 32 armor and 16 internals is a bigger percentage of your leg's health.

[Sephlock]

Lefteye, on 02 July 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

'Mechs are not made to slide/roll/crawl down slopes, and that's why they have jumpjets which are still incredibly useful. It was wrong before. This is a great gamechanger, all you need to do is adapt to the new playstyle which affects EVERYONE.

OTOH Alpine was only bearable as a variant of Chutes and Ladders:


The hill climbing nerf was one thing, but at least we had the chutes... up until now .

[Pygar]

Mavairo, on 02 July 2014 - 04:20 PM, said:

Here is part 1 of the Falling Damage Extravaganza https://www.youtube....e&v=7pu_UYrqdno Part 2 will feature more common required jump off points, for both offensive and defensive fighting, and will include a JJ mech for comparison.

The two things I see when watching that video are, the damage you took per single fall wasn't that bad... and the way you were piloting to demonstrate the damage is seriously bad piloting- if you need to repeatedly throw yourself off the sides of Canyon Network like that to survive a match, you are doing it wrong.

So what the hell are you freaking out about?

Edited by Pygar, 02 July 2014 - 04:30 PM.

[Sephlock]

Mavairo, on 02 July 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

Would you like a demo video?
Because I'm going to call bull that you can jump down the canyons without the ramps without JJ and not take damage.
I'll show you some examples, of VERY commonly required escape routes and the varying grades of slope you still take leg damage on.

Maybe we'll end up like CoD, with specific jump spots and places you have to land in order to make certain trick jumps.

[Mavairo]

Pygar, on 02 July 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

The two things I see when watching that video are, the damage you took per single fall wasn't that bad... and the way you were piloting to demonstrate the damage is seriously bad piloting.

So what the hell are you freaking out about?

Those are drop off points that weren't all that bad, before. Also, I'm moving down the hills, more for speed than anything else.
To go down those same points without taking fall damage, requires you to slow down, tremendously (one of those points, is actually Sheer, so if you end up having to use that as your egress route you're going to take fall damage regardless without JJ) and raises your exposure time.

The whole point of the vid, you'll see in part 2 with the Jester.
In neither vid am I exactly trying very hard to move around. Nor am I trying all that hard on the target dummies obviously.

It's also worth noting, this is on Canyons, where you will quite likely be doing several rapid elevation changes as the game progresses, and the falls are not even all that far down. On Alpine, it's an exercize in hilarity on some of the mountains as the mech picks up more accel on descent.

Edited by Mavairo, 02 July 2014 - 04:39 PM.

[YueFei]

LobsterPete, on 02 July 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

My head can sustain a few hundred g's and still be ok, if it's only for a millisecond or so. In football impacts, around 100 g's seems to be the magic number for injury, but those are around 20 msec or longer in duration. Woodpeckers can slam their head into a tree for a few hundred g's over and over and be ok.

Looking at g's might not be best way to determine injury. What really breaks things is the force applied, so using F=ma, g's are only half the equation. You also really need to know the mass of the object, how long is this force applied to the object, what is yield strength of material taking the load, what is the cross-sectional area of the load bearing members... Something big and heavy coming down and stopping almost instantaneously is going to have a lot more stress on the legs than some sort of cushion that spreads out all the energy over a second or so. If you can distrubte the load in either area or time then you can keep your stress under the breaking point.

So something very big and heavy dropping not very far but stopping very quickly could definately break something. But these are all just magical stompy robots so trying to bring logic into if something is possible is not is kind of a moot point anyways. If we wanted to be more realistic mechs wouldn't have ablative armor.

Fighter aircraft weigh in the neighborhood of 20 to 30 tons. When maneuvering, it's the wings that produce the force, pulling the fuselage around at 9 g's. A fightercraft's wings aren't that thick, and can withstand those kinds forces.

I neglected mass because fighter aircraft mass actually isn't that much different from the mass of most Light mechs. This may surprise some people, but yes, fighter aircraft are big and heavy.

In this setting, we have mechs made with futuristic materials that put modern ones to shame, and a mech's legs have plenty of room to flex to absorb landings.

The *only* thing Fall Damage Overhaul should've tried to do was make fall damage *proportionately* damaging to Light mechs. As in, you fall and hit the ground at X speed, you suffer Y *percentage* of damage to your legs. Instead of just having everyone take the same flat amount of damage, which was a greater percentage of a Light mech's leg health.

[C E Dwyer]

Sephlock, on 02 July 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Somehow I suspect that when people suggested increased fall damage as a fix they had poptarting Victors in mind and not Locusts playing Dukes of Hazzard.



God only knows why they decided to nerf the damage mitigation module so severely for light mechs.

Maybe they were afraid that the 3 second Jenner would become a poptart?

Or worse! FEAR THE POPTART SPIDER! OP-ness never felt so squirrely!

They broke an awful lot of cars making dukes of hazard thanks for the clip

[Pygar]

OK no, I've heard enough...if you guys were jumping off of stuff that was taller than your mech and not taking damage before somehow...I don't even know how, because it was damaging my mechs- but it's over, you can't just jump off of things like a fool and not expect leg damage.