141 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Oiy vey.

Damage nerf is not what I would have picked for the CERSL. I agree that it seemed a little bit overdone pre-patch, but an extra point of heat would’ve been a better idea than slicing off the extra damage. CSPL at 5.5 damage and 3.5 heat or so would have been a (semi-)viable competitor with the C-ERML as a 1-ton energy weapon – take a significant range cut and a bit of damage lost in exchange for half the beam duration and some heat savings. C-ERSL at 5 damage and 3 heat would have been exactly what it was – a really dangerous close-range weapon in gangs that offered really excellent HPS efficiency in a light package. The extra heat would simply have bitten into the ability to fire the C-ERSLs and the C-SRMs and the C-LBX all at once for two straight minutes. And also, of course, bitten into the Nova’s ability to blast you in the dong with ALL DA LAYZAHS.

Now, the C-ERSL is still a heat-efficient attack option, but it’s lost vital close-combat pressure that allowed ganged C-ERSL ‘Mechs to win knife fights. If the C-ERSL doesn’t win knife fights, what does it win? It’s the same thing I wish they’d address with both pulse lasers – all pulse lasers – and the IS SL. Cases where the IS SL is useful are extremely rare and only turn up when the weapon can be ganged 6+ deep. The C-ERSL could be taken in pairs as a straight-up replacement for the C-ERML (hardpoints permitting) if one favored knife-fighting over distance poking and still felt good. I used paired C-ERSL under paired C-ERPPC all the time as low-heat last-ditch backups for the particannons in close quarters situations, which is where the smalls excelled. One of my favorite Stormcrows used a quartet of C-ERSLs in the arms as a punchy knife-range backup to its longhorn-mounted C-ERPPCs.

I’ll have to see if the 4-damage laser is still worth it, but my gut feeling is that the penalty’s just a bit too harsh. I could’ve seen a 0.5-damage reduction, dropping a pair of C-ERSL to 9 damage over the C-ERML’s 7, possibly even in conjunction with a heat increase, but at 8 to 7, it’s starting to get harder to justify going for double shortbeams over the longer-ranged weapons. 16 damage over 14 for the same two tons doesn’t feel like much, not when I’m usually desperate for every last point of pressure I can throw out there in optimal ERSL range anyways.

Anyways. The small laser thing kinda sucks, but hurray for Clan spreadocannon fixes! And at least they got the message about the C-SPL being utterly pointless, even if they misfired on how to respond to that message. Any pulse laser buff is a step in the right direction. I just wish they’d finally GET THERE, instead of just taking the occasional step. Half the burn duration for any pulse laser would be a fair way to start paying the player back for spending the weight, heat, and range penalties for what’s supposed to be a ‘more accurate, better-for-mobile-combat’ laser.

IF IT’S SUPPOSED TO BE BETTER FOR MOBILE COMBAT, MAKE IT BETTER FOR STICKIN’ AND MOVIN’, PIRANHA.

[qki]

I did not drive the 12 ersl nova, so I cannot say for certain, but a 20% reduction in damage seems a bit much.

The change affects mostly the nova, which could run 12 of the things, hitting with a whopping 60 point alpha (short range, but a reasonably short burn time as well) for a mere 24 heat (+/- ghost heat). Maybe the final valuse should be closer to 4.3-4.5 damage.

I honestly cannot say. I'd have left the ersl "as is", unless the data collected shows the nova as the next fastback and this is a preemptive nerf.

[Zerberus]

FupDup, on 02 July 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Clan ER Smalls are now blatantly inferior to Clan ER Mediums, unless you somehow have only 0.5 tons left over and don't want any more ammo. Using more than 1 CERSL is now pointless.

Maths:

2x CERSL:

• 1 ton
  
• 200m range
  
• 8 damage
  
• 4 heat

1x CERML:

• 1 ton
  
• 450m range
  
• 7 damage
  
• 5 heat

The Nerfinator has claimed another life, and now the CERSL has suffered the same fate as the Inner Sphere Small Laser.



Seriously, Paul, the weapon was reasonably balanced before. A pair of them gave a noticeably higher punch than 1 CERML, but you had the run the risk of getting into very short range to reap that higher damage (fights don't magically start at 180m, folks). But now, only a dumbass would ever use a CERSL after the patch.

Then I guess I`m a dumbass, because my 12cERSL 4cMG Nova still wrecks things just fine...

[Koniving]

Xeraphale, on 02 July 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

The large pulse lasers really need a buff, their burn time is far too long. There isn't any point in using them beyond the funky sound they make.

I think the ER LL burn time isn't long enough.

Far as the Clan LPL...
it's 1.3 seconds long.
It does 11.8 damage, where tabletop's Clan LPL does 10 damage for significantly more heat. So it's already pretty buffed.
Now, take two of these and you're doing 23.6 damage for the tonnage of 1 ultra 20 at more than twice its optimal range. And if that ultra 20 double tapped, it'd generate 4 heat less than your twin LPL.

Now, the most overpowered weapon in tabletop is the Clan LPL... at 10 damage fired at 10 heat, while the Clan ER PPC did 15 damage and 15 heat.

Here... it's 11.8 damage at 8 heat (less than the ER LL which is supposed to do 9 damage for 12 heat), compared to an ER PPC which still does 15 damage at 15 heat but locks your arm from being able to aim (where the LPL doesn't do that) and weighs exactly the same.

There's all the reason in the world to run twin LPL.
Even better run twin LPL and twin ER-LL and notice the LACK OF GHOST HEAT!

...because someone at PGI isn't very bright, and the weapons are far too compatible with their beam times..

Also to mention..
Inner Sphere LPL at 600 meters with a 0.6 beam time...
3.021 damage approximately.
Clan LPL at 600 meters, with only 0.6 beam time of the total 1.3 hitting?
5.45 damage. You very clearly outclass the Inner Sphere tech with ease.

Just focus your beam better.

Clan ER LL needs some tweaking though so that the Clan LPL has real reasoning behind being chosen.

Of course if PGI made pulse lasers into what they're described as in lore... they wouldn't need shorter beam times because they would be 'laser machine guns', DPS weapons that for the IS churn out higher damage than the more instant damage lasers for only little miniscule amounts more heat. They'd be extremely different here instead of very similar.

Sadly no game has ever accomplished the written lore of pulse lasers...except mechassault which came close..and I confess it wasn't terribly attractive to see them as projectile star trek disruptor-like weapons.

Edited by Koniving, 02 July 2014 - 12:09 PM.

[Reno Blade]

You need to also compare weapons to the IS counterparts

CERSL duration 1.0 damage 4 cooldown 2.25
CERML duration 1.3 damage 7 cooldown 3.0
CSpulse duration 0.75 damage 4.4 cooldown 2.25
CMPulse duration 0.9 damage 7.5 cooldown 3.0

- cERSL vs isSL: +1 damage +0 heat +100m range +0.15sec longer beam.
- cERML vs isML: +1 damage +1 heat +180m range +0.3sec longer beam.

- cSP vs isSP: +1 damage +0 heat +80m range +0.25sec longer beam.
- cMP vs isMP: +1 damage +0.5 heat +120m range +0.30sec longer beam
overall they are all stronger for nearly the same heat with a lot longer range for a bit longer duration.

The CERSL was totally out of place with 5dmg, compared to SPulse, MLaser and IS SL, SPulse, ML and MPulse.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Ok, so now can the C LPL get some changes as well?

Dmg, lowered to 11.5
Duration time lowered to 1
Cooldown lowered to 3.
heat unchanged at 8

And can the C ER PPC get changed a bit?
.
Damage reduced to 12.5 PP
Heat reduced to 13
Recycle increased by half a second
range increased to 890

PPC and Gauss Rifle changed to only be able to fire one at a time of either weapon, no more group or duo firing 2 PPC or 2 GR or PPC/GR....

If its the arcing making it mess up lets drop arcing then....atleast till PGI can make it work. But its hit detect is shotty...plus C ER PPC are just the most IS of all the Clan weapons, its not at all, in any way an efficient weapon, not arcing 5 pts of damage, while maintaining the same 15 heat, and half the shots doing nothing anyway. Im not saying I want C ER PPC to be efficient or cool, heat wise....just the way they are now, I see little reason to take them, aside from a DW who boats 9 of them with 2 GRs on backup..

Clan LL changes

Dmg reduced to 10
Cooldown reduced by half a second
Duration reduced to 1.2
Heat reduced to 7.5
range reduced to 810.


^^^^^I Wish.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 02 July 2014 - 12:39 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Anyone want to be the nerf to the C-ER SL was due to the Nova being able to boat 12 of them? Seriously being able to pretty much do 60 points of damage per alpha with almost no heat issues was a bit much. 48 damage seems more reasonable.

However like alot of other of PGI's fixes, a fix for just one single mech that can boat 12 ER SLs, totally penalizes those who mounted the ER SL for other reasons and in moderation. Reminds me of the Gauss rifle fix that total borked up its mechanics just so you couldn't pair up a Gauss with PPCs and fire them together for pin point damage. Everyone who mounted the Gauss paired up with Lasers or Missiles, got totally screwed on that one.

[Jeb]

qki, on 02 July 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

I did not drive the 12 ersl nova, so I cannot say for certain, but a 20% reduction in damage seems a bit much.

The change affects mostly the nova, which could run 12 of the things, hitting with a whopping 60 point alpha (short range, but a reasonably short burn time as well) for a mere 24 heat (+/- ghost heat). Maybe the final valuse should be closer to 4.3-4.5 damage.

I honestly cannot say. I'd have left the ersl "as is", unless the data collected shows the nova as the next fastback and this is a preemptive nerf.

I disagree... it IMO effects the Nova the least... boating the 12 ERSLs your losing 12 dmg... but you can now hit from an extra 40 meters out... (Range was it's only real weak point if you ask me lol)
I think the change effects the builds running 2-4 ERSLs more

I think I am with a lot of other people in thinking the dmg should have stayed the same, while the heat should have been bumped up some...

Edited by Jeb, 02 July 2014 - 01:00 PM.

[Prezimonto]

FupDup, on 02 July 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

The damage increase is +1. The heat decrease is -1. The range reduction is -250 meters. What you gain is orders of magnitude smaller than what you sacrifice.



You just used the words "in line." That sounds like something Paul would say. Normalize all the things!

At 200 it's still DOUBLE the range of the basic IS small laser, and close to the range of the IS medium laser. I might agree with a 20 to 50 range increase, but more than that is wildly out of proportion with the rest of the weapons in the, especially for it's performance in terms of damage and heat.

[Jeb]

the sooner people realize that the clan weapons and IS weapons are apples and oranges the better... The clan weapons need to be balanced based around the pros and cons they built into the clan mechs to balance them... Comparing IS and Clan weapons stats one for one doesn't really give the full picture...

Personally I think the IS SRL needs some work but that is separate from anything they do with clan weapons..

[FupDup]

Zerberus, on 02 July 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

Then I guess I`m a dumbass, because my 12cERSL 4cMG Nova still wrecks things just fine...

The Nova has a top speed of 89.1 kph, and you equip it with a loadout that is defenseless past 400 meters? Dafuq? And it doesn't even have that much of an alpha.


6 ERML + 4 MG is far more sensible and versatile.

Edited by FupDup, 02 July 2014 - 06:22 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 02 July 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

Thank you for nerfing CERSL! They were retardedly overpowered. 4 damage for 2 heat is far more reasonable.

Show me a screenshot of a 12 ERSL Nova topping the scoreboard and wrecking Dragon Slayers + Timbertarts. Preferably, those Slayers and Timbertarts would be members of known competitive teams such as House of Lords, SJR, or Swords of Kentares. Until you provide such a screenie, I ain't gonna believe you.

But hey, enjoy indirectly buffing the CERML by removing one of its sidegrades. Clearly we can't have anything lightweight compete with the CERML, because that would be bad. Just like why we can't have any Inner Sphere small energy weapons compete with the Inner Sphere Medium Laser.

Edited by FupDup, 02 July 2014 - 06:33 PM.

[FupDup]

Rebas Kradd, on 02 July 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

Big deal.

You seem like one of the people that wouldn't support this kind of change. The reason I say this is because in the past you've accused "role warfare" proponents of wanting everything to all be the same, rather than giving specialized niches to each thing. Basically, those posts of yours in the past implied that you wanted things to be unique from one another, rather than different colors of the same thing.

And this nerf reduces the differences between the CERSL and CERML. 2 CERSL now have their damage very close to the CERML, and their range is slightly closer than before. Pre-nerf, the ranges were more different and the damages were much more different (10 for a pair of ERSL, versus 7 for 1 ERML).

Raw numbers:
Old range difference: 270 meters (540m for max range)
Old damage difference: 3 (assuming 2 ERSL)

New range difference: 250 meters (500m for max range)
New damage difference: 1 (assuming 2 ERSL)


Was my past impression of your attitude towards balance correct, or was I wrong? Do you want them to be more distinct, or more similar?

Edited by FupDup, 02 July 2014 - 06:45 PM.

[Silentium]

Ronyn, on 02 July 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

I like the changes to the medium pulse, but will have to try them first before making a decision.

Same, I mean, I already was starting to like the CMPL, and I am down with these changes on paper. Still grinding out the NVA-S, so I should get a crack at it in the morning.

[Kiiyor]

FupDup, on 02 July 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

The Nerfinator has claimed another life, and now the CERSL has suffered the same fate as the Inner Sphere Small Laser.

Agreed. I'm not normally one to jump to conclusions without testing, but this seems excessive. Were people really clamoring for nerfs? The only mech they were truly dangerous on was the Nova, and if that little battler managed to get within range of you to use them, all the more power to him.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 02 July 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

The Nova has a top speed of 89.1 kph, and you equip it with a loadout that is defenseless past 400 meters? Dafuq? And it doesn't even have that much of an alpha.


6 ERML + 4 MG is far more sensible and versatile.

11 ERSLs and 2 ERLLs was kinda fun.

My go to was 6 ERMLs and 6 ERSLs either either MGs or dual AMS systems, with 1/2 tons of ammo for either build.


I might have to change that first one, though.

[Ultimax]

Kiiyor, on 02 July 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

Agreed. I'm not normally one to jump to conclusions without testing, but this seems excessive. Were people really clamoring for nerfs? The only mech they were truly dangerous on was the Nova, and if that little battler managed to get within range of you to use them, all the more power to him.

Sorry only 3 or 4 weapon systems are allowed to function well, and only on poptarts.

Anything that could be made to look like a nerf to poptarts will be implemented, though these changes will actually repeatedly nerf non-poptarts even worse.

Everything else will be "normalized".

[Kiiyor]

Ultimatum X, on 02 July 2014 - 08:48 PM, said:

Sorry only 3 or 4 weapon systems are allowed to function well, and only on poptarts.

Anything that could be made to look like a nerf to poptarts will be implemented, though these changes will actually repeatedly nerf non-poptarts even worse.

Everything else will be "normalized".

Maybe it's being normalized, balanced based on overall performance data... but I would have thought that any weapon that worked within brawling range should be lovingly nurtured and allowed to grow free. We need more close range fisticuffs!

[Dymlos2003]

Obviously still broken Plz nerf

[UBCslayer]

ER small laser nerf means even more PPC/gauss timberwolves on the battlefield... it's almost as if PGI wants that to be the only competitive build. Oh well, RIP brawling and another victory for jump sniper online once again.