372 replies to this topic

[Galenit]

TheFuzzyBunny, on 03 July 2014 - 04:41 AM, said:

You're so adorable....

No, that isn't the issue at all. The issue is a 12 man deck, with comp based builds is > than a group of groups with a regular variety of builds. Which really isn't a surprise to anyone, or shouldn't be. The lesson learned is that if you're going to run a group, and be in the group mode, you better be as close to a 12 man as possible, and run your comp based builds and tactics.

Why do you need to learn the lesson,
you have said this nearly 1.5 years ago,
dont remember?

http://mwomercs.com/...ost&pid=1314466

Quote

Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:49 AM
It just seems silly to cry over getting beat by a premade when you can easily join up with a group and you know, become a premade...

Edited by Galenit, 03 July 2014 - 07:33 AM.

[Torgun]

Drasari, on 03 July 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

Oh so that was broken but being a 2 man with other split groups going against a 10-12 is ok, got it.

Either way, I will never be in that situation again.

Since so many were calling for 5-11 player teams, that's why this happened. But I know you'd rather drop in your 4-mans into solo queue and convince yourself that's somehow more fair.

[Haipyng]

This whole 4-man stomping PUGs and now getting owned by 10-12 man premades is rubbish. The 4 mans had a slight advantage, but most of that was diluted by the other 8 players on their team being PUGs. Not every 3-4 man group was an elite group either.

Coordinated 8-12 man groups that have drilled together and are running complimentary builds will steamroll multi-group companies nearly every time. It was happening pretty frequently last night, and I was seeing the frustration on players.

If you like the Tryhard play style, great. If you like a more laid back play style, more power to you. PGI needs both to continue to develop the game.

[Roland]

Drasari, on 03 July 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

Oh so that was broken but being a 2 man with other split groups going against a 10-12 is ok, got it.

Yes, that is ok. Glad you understand it now.

[TheFuzzyBunny]

Galenit, on 03 July 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

Why do you need to learn the lesson,
you have said this nearly 1.5 years ago,
dont remember?

http://mwomercs.com/...ost&pid=1314466

There is a difference between a pre-made, and a pre-made in a comp deck build. Just like there is a difference between comp based play and general play. What has happened is that now there is no difference between comp based play and general play in group mode.

I appreciate your ability to find my posts from a year and a half ago, but I'm just wondering what that has to do with this conversation. One and a half years ago the game was different, you could compete in general by just being in a group, we didn't have as of a front loaded advantage by the said comp deck builds as we do now.

You could also quote the entire post as opposed to cherry picking a part of it. The intent of that post was to encourage people to join a group which could help them with their tactics, in addition to just giving them people to play with.

Got anything else you want to dig up from a year and half ago you think is applicable to our current situation?

[Roland]

Another big change today is that if you have a large group, then you are forced into the 3\3\3\3 build. You can't run 10 Highlanders and two ravens or some crazy nonsense like you used to be able to.

[Felicitatem Parco]

This thread is a joke.

If you want to roll as a 6-player group, specifically, and you don't want to fight against 12-man groups, then find 6 other players to fight against and launch a private match. You can't get on a pedestal and demand that your group only be matched against 6 other players in a public match because you're only putting 12 players into a game designed to host 24 players at a time. If you want to fight in smaller groups, only, and avoid the public gaming rules, then you rent some server space with premium time and do it that way.

They're not going to make 12v12 matches exclusive from group+group v. group+group or group+group v. 12 because the wait times would be enormously bad and would make the game worse -> playing the game as a 10+2 v. 12 is better than "SEARCHING..."

Edited by Prosperity Park, 03 July 2014 - 07:47 AM.

[Zolaz]

Cryhards love the QQ. What are they going to do when CW rolls out? QQ to PGI that they have to fight coordinated teams to take a planet?

[Haipyng]

Prosperity Park, on 03 July 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

They're not going to make 12v12 matches exclusive from group+group v. group+group or group+group v. 12 because the wait times would be enormously bad and would make the game worse -> playing the game as a 10+2 v. 12 is better than "SEARCHING..."

How about giving the players the option to wait for more even matches, rather than getting pitted into an 8-12 man competitive premade? A fast lane to the big competitive premades or a slower lane to more even group matches.

[AlmightyAeng]

Oh look, this topic is new and exciting.

The Kell Hounds ran groups last night in a variety of sizes, ranging everywhere between 3 and 10 at a time. We maintained a 3:1 W/L ratio all night, and went up against combos of groups and 12-mans.

Quit your crying. Yeah, more coordination and teamwork between more players will always work better. You're playing a multiplayer game that hinges on coordination and focused effort.

Deal with it.

Edit: I'd be fine with 2-4 mans having an option to "opt out" IF it didn't completely break the matchmaker...they only just got it working again last night.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 03 July 2014 - 07:54 AM.

[Drasari]

Haipyng, on 03 July 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

How about giving the players the option to wait for more even matches, rather than getting pitted into an 8-12 man competitive premade? A fast lane to the big competitive premades or a slower lane to more even group matches.

I would gladly wait longer.

Roland, on 03 July 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Another big change today is that if you have a large group, then you are forced into the 3\3\3\3 build. You can't run 10 Highlanders and two ravens or some crazy nonsense like you used to be able to.

That is one nice aspect for sure.

[Haipyng]

Drasari, on 03 July 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

I would gladly wait longer.

I think many people would me included. At least then the choice is in the players hands.

[ztac]

Seems to me that if the MM were intelligent enough it should be able to find like sized groups to fight each other :-
12 vs 12 , 3x4 vs 3x4 ,2x4 and 2x2 vs 2x4 and 2x2 etc etc etc .. and just keep all the solos in one queue.

It just makes no sense to give anyone some kind of advantage before a game even starts, and as for throwing the occasional solo player into a pre-made match to make up numbers ... kind of not very bright at all (do you hate solo players that much PGI?)

Solo players want to play solo for some reason or other , not so they can risk playing pre-mades all the time. Or is the real problem here that you really want to instigate multi-player but just don't have the player base for it , but went ahead anyway.

At the end of the day throw all the groups in one MM , and the PUG's in another ( PUGS will want this , but pre-mades won't ).

Edited by ztac, 03 July 2014 - 08:15 AM.

[TheFuzzyBunny]

Prosperity Park, on 03 July 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

This thread is a joke.

If you want to roll as a 6-player group, specifically, and you don't want to fight against 12-man groups, then find 6 other players to fight against and launch a private match. You can't get on a pedestal and demand that your group only be matched against 6 other players in a public match because you're only putting 12 players into a game designed to host 24 players at a time. If you want to fight in smaller groups, only, and avoid the public gaming rules, then you rent some server space with premium time and do it that way.

They're not going to make 12v12 matches exclusive from group+group v. group+group or group+group v. 12 because the wait times would be enormously bad and would make the game worse -> playing the game as a 10+2 v. 12 is better than "SEARCHING..."

I agree to a point PP. What I'd like to see differently is a way to seperate the HARD CORE comp based stuff from the casual play. Right now that is not possible. If you take a casual play 4-12 man group into a comp based game against the HARD CORE teams you're going to get ROFLstompped. Everyone knows this, I can't imagine it's fun for either side unless the HARD CORE team is a bunch of juvenile children who don't really want to compete, but just want to win.

So the issue I have that it is not possible to play casually in a group unless you want to take the gamble you're going to get rolled by a comp team who is trying to practice their 12 man game. Whats worse as people figure this out more and more will just try to sync drop solo and screw that grouping up, or just drop 12s themselves making it even harder to find a generic casual group play game.

Finally we all know you can lobby and not have to worry about it. We also all know that you cannot gain any XP on your mechs or CBills while in the lobby.

Finally I'm not QQing. This is how the system is. I will adapt. I'll solo drop for my leveling, and treat all group play like I expect to be dropped into a comp based game every drop. This means comp based builds, no casual play, strikes and the lot. I just don't see how that would be fun to the casual players who just want to play with friends in a casual game.

[Screech]

TheFuzzyBunny, on 03 July 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

Got anything else you want to dig up from a year and half ago you think is applicable to our current situation?

No, his first post was spot on. Sucks when your own words are used against you, think of it as a teachable moment for the future.

[Vassago Rain]

Haipyng, on 03 July 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

This whole 4-man stomping PUGs and now getting owned by 10-12 man premades is rubbish. The 4 mans had a slight advantage, but most of that was diluted by the other 8 players on their team being PUGs. Not every 3-4 man group was an elite group either.

Coordinated 8-12 man groups that have drilled together and are running complimentary builds will steamroll multi-group companies nearly every time. It was happening pretty frequently last night, and I was seeing the frustration on players.

If you like the Tryhard play style, great. If you like a more laid back play style, more power to you. PGI needs both to continue to develop the game.

Maybe you should get on teamspeak and gather some more friends? Adapt and overcome. L2P.

There used to be other excuses.



Now I have 9 friends, and I'm walking all over you.

[spectralthundr]

Haipyng, on 03 July 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

This whole 4-man stomping PUGs and now getting owned by 10-12 man premades is rubbish. The 4 mans had a slight advantage, but most of that was diluted by the other 8 players on their team being PUGs. Not every 3-4 man group was an elite group either.

Coordinated 8-12 man groups that have drilled together and are running complimentary builds will steamroll multi-group companies nearly every time. It was happening pretty frequently last night, and I was seeing the frustration on players.

If you like the Tryhard play style, great. If you like a more laid back play style, more power to you. PGI needs both to continue to develop the game.

I dunno, I was running a 3 man won a ton of games, then later a 2 man with a squad mate last night and we got matched up on a team entirely made of of Mariks who were obviously a single group launch, it didn't help our team win, I was the only one who got a kill the entire game since all the Mariks wanted to play peek and poke rather than move the hell up and engage.

[TheFuzzyBunny]

Screech, on 03 July 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

No, his first post was spot on. Sucks when your own words are used against you, think of it as a teachable moment for the future.

Do tell. Accept for the fact said person is only picking and choosing what he quotes. If anything he is agreeing with me, not using my words against. What is more likely is he's trying to insult me by stating an inability to learn, when, again, he is choosing to ignore half of the conversation.

The joining the group part is only half of the issue, and the lesser half at that. The real issue is casual play being matched against comp play. This is why the 12 man que was made separate to begin with. So the comp based teams had a place to go to truly practice their craft.

I play in the comp based 12 mans just fine with my comp based teams. I also like to tone it back and play casually, both solo and in what used to be normal groups, with non comp based builds.

You no longer have that option as you will randomly be stuck against a comp based team working on their 12 mans, regardless of whether or not you are built to run that way.

I realize the MWO forums are toxic at times, but really? Do we really need to constantly resort to this level?

[Deathlike]

Roland, on 03 July 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Another big change today is that if you have a large group, then you are forced into the 3\3\3\3 build. You can't run 10 Highlanders and two ravens or some crazy nonsense like you used to be able to.

At worst, a Steiner scout lance can be fielded (or any combination of a lance of a particular weight class). I don't think there's been any skewing of that stat... yet.

Solo does ensure 3/3/3/3 though. Group play breaks down to what I've just said.

TheFuzzyBunny, on 03 July 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

I agree to a point PP. What I'd like to see differently is a way to seperate the HARD CORE comp based stuff from the casual play. Right now that is not possible. If you take a casual play 4-12 man group into a comp based game against the HARD CORE teams you're going to get ROFLstompped. Everyone knows this, I can't imagine it's fun for either side unless the HARD CORE team is a bunch of juvenile children who don't really want to compete, but just want to win.

So the issue I have that it is not possible to play casually in a group unless you want to take the gamble you're going to get rolled by a comp team who is trying to practice their 12 man game. Whats worse as people figure this out more and more will just try to sync drop solo and screw that grouping up, or just drop 12s themselves making it even harder to find a generic casual group play game.

Finally we all know you can lobby and not have to worry about it. We also all know that you cannot gain any XP on your mechs or CBills while in the lobby.

Finally I'm not QQing. This is how the system is. I will adapt. I'll solo drop for my leveling, and treat all group play like I expect to be dropped into a comp based game every drop. This means comp based builds, no casual play, strikes and the lot. I just don't see how that would be fun to the casual players who just want to play with friends in a casual game.

I don't think that's entirely possible, and you may not necessarily agree with the reasoning.

If we put small groups together, would it not be possible that some sort of "small elite/troll premade" be stalking that queue instead of "taking their lumps" in the big boy queue?

There will ALWAYS be a subsection of players that will be better than you. That is the reality. You have only two real solutions:

1) Get better (or simply practice better teamwork).

2) Go to the solo queue.

The solo queue is actually bad, and there's way more underhive than I'd ever thought. If you wish to run "casual" or "low level group play", you will find it there. While it's probably going to help my stress levels (because, you have an equal level or derp), the quality/seriousness of play is a FAR lower than people that would like BETTER TEAMPLAY (as in, they wish to derp less).

While there should be some tweakage of the 2-4 mans that are pulled into the big boy queue, the reality is... casual is relegated to playing solo, and you have a "small" chance to keep playing it as you or your small premade team get better over time.

[Vassago Rain]

TheFuzzyBunny, on 03 July 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

Do tell. Accept for the fact said person is only picking and choosing what he quotes. If anything he is agreeing with me, not using my words against. What is more likely is he's trying to insult me by stating an inability to learn, when, again, he is choosing to ignore half of the conversation.

The joining the group part is only half of the issue, and the lesser half at that. The real issue is casual play being matched against comp play. This is why the 12 man que was made separate to begin with. So the comp based teams had a place to go to truly practice their craft.

I play in the comp based 12 mans just fine with my comp based teams. I also like to tone it back and play casually, both solo and in what used to be normal groups, with non comp based builds.

You no longer have that option as you will randomly be stuck against a comp based team working on their 12 mans, regardless of whether or not you are built to run that way.

I realize the MWO forums are toxic at times, but really? Do we really need to constantly resort to this level?

For the past two years, whenever anyone has questioned the premad need to stomp, the reply has been 'get on teamspeak and get some more friends.'

This time, you can't escape to the ghetto to lick your wounds. The ghetto has become the 8 manz premade battlefield of 2012. If you keep losing, and you probably will, your powerlevel elo score will balance out, and you won't run into the meanies anymore.

gg close