21 replies to this topic

[Hillslam]

GENERAL LOGIC Rules:

• - 3-3-3-3 enforced in all queues
  
• - Solo players drop in "solo" queue with a MAX of one 2-4 man premade on either side.
  
• - 2-4 man group should drop in either "solo" queue or "large group" queue
  
• - 5-10 man groups drop in "large group" queue exclusively
  
• - 12 mans drop in "12 man only queue" exclusively.

"LARGE GROUP" QUEUE Rules:

Rule 1 - The MM should never allow a gap of more than 1 group per side.
Examples:

• 3-3-3-3 vs 4-4-4 = OK
  
• 5-7 vs 4-4-4 = OK
  
• 10-2 vs 2-2-2-2-2-2 = NOT OK
  
• 6-6 vs 4-4-4 = OK
  
• 6-6 vs 2-3-3-4 = NOT OK

and so on

Rule 2 - If a large group drops then THEY WAIT until enough additional large groups drop to satisfy Rule 1. No "steam valves" in the LARGE GROUP QUEUE let time out and dump the large group on a group of 6 unsuspecting 2 mans

[SirLANsalot]

Except for that last part there (which wasn't in the PTS but they changed it to allow 12's into the group que)

IT ALREADY DOSE THIS!


2-4 gets to be in either GROUP or SOLO ques. 5-12 are Group Only. Read effing patch notes.

[Drasari]

Hillslam, on 02 July 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:

GENERAL LOGIC Rules:

• - 3-3-3-3 enforced in all queues
  
• - Solo players drop in "solo" queue with a MAX of one 2-4 man premade on either side.
  
• - 2-4 man group should drop in either "solo" queue or "large group" queue
  
• - 5-10 man groups drop in "large group" queue exclusively
  
• - 12 mans drop in "12 man only queue" exclusively.

"LARGE GROUP" QUEUE Rules:

Rule 1 - The MM should never allow a gap of more than 1 group per side.
Examples:

• 3-3-3-3 vs 4-4-4 = OK
  
• 5-7 vs 4-4-4 = OK
  
• 10-2 vs 2-2-2-2-2-2 = NOT OK
  
• 6-6 vs 4-4-4 = OK
  
• 6-6 vs 2-3-3-4 = NOT OK

and so on


Rule 2 - If a large group drops then THEY WAIT until enough additional large groups drop to satisfy Rule 1. No "steam valves" in the LARGE GROUP QUEUE let time out and dump the large group on a group of 6 unsuspecting 2 mans

Could not agree more. That would be fantastic.

[Roland]

There is no reason to separate out 12 man teams into their own queue. It serves no purpose.

[Dymlos2003]

Isn't that what the matchmaker already does? Except the 12v12 only thing.

[Willard Phule]

That works, but don't forget, the Elo portion needs to have a 7500 point spread to choose from. Granted, the max is 2800....but, if it's set for 7500, then we'll get every skill level into every match. One lopsided roflstomp after the other. That's what we're looking for.

[Hillslam]

SirLANsalot, on 02 July 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

Except for that last part there (which wasn't in the PTS but they changed it to allow 12's into the group que)

IT ALREADY DOSE THIS!


2-4 gets to be in either GROUP or SOLO ques. 5-12 are Group Only. Read effing patch notes.

No it doesn't. I read just fine.

Also, the 5-12mans are dumping into the 2-4 queue due to these "time out steam valves" they've built in to mitigate the large group's wait time. Because they're a bunch of vocal whining primadonnas. So: bad design + bug. This post is as it is advertised: this is how the MM *should* work.

Next time before you post take a nice sip of your cup of STFU and think through what you just read.

[Roland]

Hillslam, on 02 July 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:

No it doesn't. I read just fine.

Also, the 5-12mans are dumping into the 2-4 queue due to these "time out steam valves" they've built in to mitigate the large group's wait time. Because they're a bunch of vocal whining primadonnas. So: bad design + bug. This post is as it is advertised: this is how the MM *should* work.

Next time before you post take a nice sip of your cup of STFU and think through what you just read.

No, you don't understand how the system works.
There is no "2-4 man queue".

There is the solo queue, and there is the groups queue.

Solo players always drop in the solo queue.
Groups of 5-12 always drop in the groups queue.
Small groups will drop in either, as required.

The new system is a dramatic improvement for everyone, except for people who liked their advantage as 4 man groups going up against pugs.

[Hillslam]

I get that. I understand exactly how the current MM logic has been described to be working.

I meant in the current system the 5-12s and the 2-4s are co-mingling. IMO they shouldn't and in my logic rules they wouldn't.

Also - the part about no more than 1 max group discrepancy in the group queue is flatly not happening. Its not part of their design at all. If it was it wasn't documented to us, and it clearly is failing. And we have proof of that.

And we have proof of the steam valves dumping grossly unbalanced matches together to mitigate wait times (which would largely impact the vocal big groups the most). My rules disallow any such time-out valves.

I haven't seen the data but I'm willing to bet that large groups are hitting their escape code on every drop, with the MM effectively saying "F* it, I can't match this big group up against another big group, so in you go into the general population of all groups." Who cares that you just dumped a shark into the tuna tank...

Edited by Hillslam, 02 July 2014 - 05:27 PM.

[Rebas Kradd]

I wonder how many large (5-12) groups you beat today and never realized it, because they sucked.

[1453 R]

I love how the general tone of all these "NEW MM SUCKS" threads is "Grouped players can suck a fat one. They can wait as long as they have to and have lousy fights with each other twice an hour because they all ruin balance anyways. Who cares about them. Also why can't my 4-man roflparty keep dropping exclusively in the pug queue and rake in the billz the way we always have?!"

[Hillslam]

BTW - I'm not just spouting dreams here. I eat my own dogfood:

In 2013 Miner and I submitted to PGI the exact MM code that would do just this. (In the world of math its known as a knapsack problem.) Miner literally handed them the code. No cost. With quite a bit of supporting testing and the graphing and reporting to show how it performed and the results it produced. We had some discussion with a couple of their reps. For whatever reason, they didn't take it. Oh, and it handled 11s.

More than a year later, they're still struggling to get this right.

PS - I pug exclusively

Edited by Hillslam, 02 July 2014 - 05:33 PM.

[1453 R]

You're still not telling me why it's perfectly okay for large groups to suffer half-hour wait times for drops, Slam

[Spike Brave]

1453 R, on 02 July 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

I love how the general tone of all these "NEW MM SUCKS" threads is "Grouped players can suck a fat one. They can wait as long as they have to and have lousy fights with each other twice an hour because they all ruin balance anyways. Who cares about them. Also why can't my 4-man roflparty keep dropping exclusively in the pug queue and rake in the billz the way we always have?!"

This is what I wanted to say. I always pug. I generally enjoy the game, but every once in awhile you get the four man GGCLOSE crowd. Looks like they don't like having to fight uphill. It's tough fighting an organized group. I don't think it's right to say that pugs might have to groups, but group shouldn't have to fight bigger groups. Sounds balanced to me.

Hillslam, on 02 July 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

BTW - I'm not just spouting dreams here. I eat my own dogfood:

In 2013 Miner and I submitted to PGI the exact MM code that would do just this. (In the world of math its known as a knapsack problem.) Miner literally handed them the code. No cost. With quite a bit of supporting testing and the graphing and reporting to show how it performed and the results it produced. We had some discussion with a couple of their reps. For whatever reason, they didn't take it. Oh, and it handled 11s.

More than a year later, they're still struggling to get this right.

PS - I pug exclusively

Math or code. It's different. Implementing complex math in an OO environment can be complicated, especially when using a framework.

[Hillslam]

Code. The math its based off solves a knapsack problem. And it did it extremely well. With quite a lot of configurability. And I've been delivering distributed systems since 1993.

The math itself isn't really that complex to code, once you understand the problem. Which PGI clearly doesn't.

That's not a huge slam on them: the problem and the approach to it isn't simple - even if what you arrive at is.

Miner is way smarter than me. MIT PhD in EE fact. all the credit goes to him.

Edited by Hillslam, 02 July 2014 - 08:39 PM.

[FaceRipt]

Groups of 2 are who really got shafted, you want to play and have fun with your friend , nope gotta go play with the META big boys now.

Groups of 2 should have the option to play in the group que, not saying this because me and my friend were this omg roflstomp game changing 2 man group.

I'M SAYING THIS BECAUSE IT WAS NOT FUN FOR US.

It felt even more disadvantaged than being in the old que with a disco or 2.

I know it's just my opinion and one of the few that goes against the whole it's a wonderful patch and all, but alot of the replies I see posted to the 2-4 man groups are pertaining to a full 4 man.

This is just how I feel about 2 people that want to play the game and have fun, not be forced into the big arena ( THERE BE DRAGONS HERE ) META deep-end.

To me going into the group que like that is the equivalent of playing in a Ranked que.

[Grifthin]

FaceRipt, on 03 July 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

Groups of 2 are who really got shafted, you want to play and have fun with your friend , nope gotta go play with the META big boys now.

Groups of 2 should have the option to play in the group que, not saying this because me and my friend were this omg roflstomp game changing 2 man group.

I'M SAYING THIS BECAUSE IT WAS NOT FUN FOR US.

It felt even more disadvantaged than being in the old que with a disco or 2.

I know it's just my opinion and one of the few that goes against the whole it's a wonderful patch and all, but alot of the replies I see posted to the 2-4 man groups are pertaining to a full 4 man.

This is just how I feel about 2 people that want to play the game and have fun, not be forced into the big arena ( THERE BE DRAGONS HERE ) META deep-end.

To me going into the group que like that is the equivalent of playing in a Ranked que.

Or you know - the two of you will be in regular pug drops as often as the normal group que. You don't only land in the grouped que - you will often be in a pug drop to balance out the single premade on the enemy team.

[FaceRipt]

Grifthin, on 03 July 2014 - 03:24 AM, said:

Or you know - the two of you will be in regular pug drops as often as the normal group que. You don't only land in the grouped que - you will often be in a pug drop to balance out the single premade on the enemy team.

Out of about 20 games last night there were maybe 3 times we were in the public que.

How do I know this you ask, when you see the same 8-12 names 3-4 matches in a row guess what same que and when those same names have matching Clan or IS tags guess what same que.

I never said we were always in the group que, just that we flopped there more often than not and when we did the game was not fun because of the difference between the way the pub que plays and the META group que does.

2 man groups should have the choice between casual (pub) or hard mode (group).

But in your words it's okay that I have a crappy time playing in the group que cause hey I'll get to play the game how I was enjoying it every now and again if I'm lucky.

[Bobzilla]

Really the question is, how long are the wait times for the 12 mans currently?

If they aren't that long, increase the wait before the 'valve' opens them to non 12 mans.

Maybe more 12 mans will form now that they seem to be having less wait times and this whole thing will be a moot point anyways.

[RAM]

1 queue and 1 queue only. Match on ELO alone.

This is a god damn ******* war - never fight fair.


RAM
ELH