96 replies to this topic

[BatWing]

So, what are we looking at here exactly??

OP is complaining that his "smal"" group 2 to 4 is dropping against 12 man all of the times and stomped???

Ok, so .. yes,, you drop vs 12 ppl on the other side. There is NO Way for you to say (other than just a few obvious situations) that the enemy 12 ARE a single group.

So you are already wrong here.

Then, you are either 2 or 3 or 4 on your team, but you never said what about the other about 8 ppl dropping with you. Are they other small groups, are they all Solo, how do you know it exactly? are you having "chat surveys' on every single drop you drop?

What you report is that"your team is stomped by the enemy team". That s all what i see in your statement.

based on the old numbers PGI provided, there was barely a 10% of groups dropping at that time ... BARELY A 10%!! And just a small part of that already small 10% were 12 man....

So, where are you finding now all of this 12 man groups stomping you so consistently ????

Alriight, i ll give the benefit of the doubt, maybe now finally you have a game that works, possibly Groups are finally dropping more... how nice...

So, what do you think? from a staggering 10%, the 12 man population possibly grew up in the last couple of days to.... what... 20%.... maybe 25%

or do you seriously believe thhat now, in a matter of hours the 12man population grew up to something like 80% so that every time you and your small group drops, they are all hiding behind the corner just waiting to stomp you?

Furtehrmore you are sooo unlucky that you never drop with some other decent group? if you drop in 2, you have some chance to get a 10man premade.. how cool that could be ?

Or still you could group up with other small groups.... but everytime you get stomped?? seriously???

man, there is some serious lack of coherency in your post....

[Lykaon]

StaggerCheck, on 03 July 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

It's a crapshoot now. Just before the patch a solo player could drop and find 12 PuGs on the other team, a bunch of PuGs and a group, a few PuGs and two groups or multiple small groups. Horrifically, it was possible that the groups you were facing started out or ended up on the same TeamSpeak channel. I know... I've seen it happen. How is that situation different from post patch, where you can find yourself as a solo player or group player facing all the above scenarios, except now full twelve man groups are in the mix? You know sync drops have happened before, so this is simply a continuation of the norm, but more organized!

And how often do you think these sych drops occured?

You are aware of the variables involved?

First: you need multiple groups in the same voip channel to time the drop with server latencycausing timing desyncs.When I say NOW and when player one player two or player four hears it transmittited will all be different based on individual connections and latency. Not a major hurdle to jump but it's the first.

Second: to improve odds of getting the sync drop to actually sync you will deselect two out of the three game modes.This of course means that 2/3rds of the game modes in play will not have any chance what so ever of matching against this sync drop.(many syncro dropping teams used skirmish)

Third: Now you need to deal with the match maker.Players who group frequently have higher than average Elo ratings.This means that two groups attempting to sycro drop have to be matched with other high Elo players or,more often than not match against each other to balance the team Elo values.

Fourth: once the matchmaker has sorted the multiple groups into Elo buckets it now dumps them onto one of a dozen maps either on seperate maps or on opposing sides and very very rarely on the same team vs an Elo matched opposing force.

So how often do you think the planets align to allow this to happen with enough frequency that it was a problem?

So you asked how is this different from post patch?

Well the solo puggies still have a premade boogie man to blame when they suck (as it has been)

Grouping players seem to have been screwed again.First it was expulsion to 12 man mandatory meta humperville and a max "casual" group size of 4.And now it's mechwarrior roulette to determine group queue victories by what side draws the largest on comms groups wile also forcing all grouped players to become meta humpers in order to compete.

(gonna be hearing about this from the puggies since all groups must be prepared to play vs tryhards always all groups will become tryhards and 4 mans can still drop with Pugs)

So instead of investing time into developing communication and grouping tools built into the game we get this.

And grouping players get to be tossed into the random victory generator of the grouped queue.I have yet to collect data but,my theory is the side with the most players on the same VOIP will win the vast majority of the time.

If this does indeed turn out to be the case then we can conclude that the single most important factor for determining victory will be what side has the largest on VOIP group this of course means victory is largely predetermined by the match maker.

[Dimento Graven]

"Large groups ATE MY BABY!!!"

lolz...

[zhajin]

The Wakelord, on 03 July 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

Are we are to magically know that the other players are in a single group, or do you suggest each player ask in every single match "hey, is the rest of my team a single group so we can co-ordinate a stately battle plan?"

I play solo, or groups 2-4. The only time I know before the match starts that I'm not in a PUG is when an entire lance is a single faction.

so are you expected to communicate with your team before running off with your own group? yes... yes you are.... this should actually be happening in solo queue as well thanks...

[Dimento Graven]

Quote

...
I have yet to collect data but,my theory is the side with the most players on the same VOIP will win the vast majority of the time.
...

I'm not sure why this would be a bad thing, especially considering that this is how the game has been advertised since DAY ONE.

From http://mwomercs.com/game, "How so does gameplay work?":

Quote

MechWarrior Online puts MechWarriors into team-based and tactical battlefield where the victors swim in the spoils of war and are rewarded with the almighty C-Bill (in-game currency).

Each team has up to 12 players and the two teams are pitted in combat in an enclosed battlefield. Communication is key, be it in-game chat, integrated C3, or a third party VOIP solution, keeping in constant communication with your teammates will drastically increase your team’s chances of success.

If a person is not willing or capable of finding a group of friends, and to install any of the FREE, AT NO COST TO YOU, VOIP solutions... Well... Maybe MWO isn't the game for them.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 03 July 2014 - 09:46 AM.

[zhajin]

JHackworth, on 03 July 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

MM probably needs a couple of tweaks.

• On the UI front, an option for 2-4s to choose "Solo Queue, Group Queue, Both" would help.
  
• On the backend, making the largest groups differential no more than 2 would probably help. So, 12-mans can drop against 10 or 12, 10-mans can drop against 8,9,10,12 plus fillers etc.

statically those are both likely not possible with any reasonable wait time. this is not wow with millions of players on at any given time.

[jozkhan]

Look I'm not being a cry baby if you want to think that then fine. I'm actually the kind of person that will continue to drop because you know I just like to fight - win or lose. And will hopefully learn a few things. So please dont misinterpret where I'm coming from.

However not everyone I play with (in small groups) is like that

Vass has suggested a significant return of the 12 man group already saying his old buddies are all back playing now.

And yes we were asking at the end of match about the enemy team size. I didnt take screens tho. And generally if everyone has the same faction its usually a good indicator of who is organized. On the our team side of things the general lack of any comparable level of organization suggests smaller groups and also I would say something else that time to kill (from the 12 man side of things) is really very quick.

It's something of a shock to the system when you factor in time to kill and being faced with 12 man level of gameplay.

Edited by jozkhan, 03 July 2014 - 09:50 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

I find the attitude of "unfair!" towards 12-mans amusing. 12-mans will only ever have 3 assaults. Hell, 3 of anything. As a team of mixed groups, you could have up to 6 assaults, facing those 3. You could outnumber their lights. Or heavies. You could out-ton them. It's that variety that makes things interesting. Play to the strengths of the comp you drop with.

Just because they're a 12-man, doesn't mean their mechs do more damage. You CAN outplay 12-mans. It's not always easy, and it's not always hard.

Believe it or not, it's not ALL in their favor.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 03 July 2014 - 09:50 AM.

[Furniture]

StaggerCheck, on 03 July 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

It's a crapshoot now. Just before the patch a solo player could drop and find 12 PuGs on the other team, a bunch of PuGs and a group, a few PuGs and two groups or multiple small groups. Horrifically, it was possible that the groups you were facing started out or ended up on the same TeamSpeak channel. I know... I've seen it happen. How is that situation different from post patch, where you can find yourself as a solo player or group player facing all the above scenarios, except now full twelve man groups are in the mix? You know sync drops have happened before, so this is simply a continuation of the norm, but more organized!

That's not how it works at all. In fact, the new system is much better for solo droppers because it prevents sync dropping altogether. In the solo que no team can have more than one premade group on it, and that group can't be more than 4 people in size. Also, if one team has a premade on it, the other will also have a premade on it. If your team has no premades, the other team has none. The group que is separate from the solo que - only 2-4 man groups drop in both ques.

The only people who are "hurt" by the new matchmaker are small groups who can no longer be guaranteed an easier game against disorganized opponents, instead of having to receive their own medicine by fighting against larger organized groups every now and then.

[Jon Gotham]

Ghost Badger, on 03 July 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

I made a point to inform the rest of our teammates, actually, and invited them to "stick with us." We typed our targets in chat as we called them on TS. A little communication goes a long way. We went 12W and 4L last night.

Welcome to a multiplayer game based on teamwork and coordination...talking to your team helps.

Tried doing that all last night-it failed every single time. They just wouldn't work with us.
Also, my take on it is:if my team is made up of several smaller groups-why can't the other team be comprised the same? Every single game we dropped last night we were against larger premades. It frankly wasn't much fun to be honest. We kept going up against tourney level tryhards spamming cbills at us via arty/airstrikes. All we wanted was a good match even if we lost.
Out of ten drops, we got two good games, 1 a win, 1 a loss.
Eight awful games.

If the solo experience is better I'll do that more often I think, wait till my guys can get a twelve going then at least it'll be fair.
Otherwise not much point dropping with 2-3 mates if all you get is larger premades treating the games like it was the last tournament.

As for the sniping attacks by the solo players...really? One premade (usually) with the odd 2 premades isn't the same as being fed to 8/10/12 mans.
I have deliberately avoided fielding meta, and avoided comp play because I hate the meta and the gameplay it provides so very much. I've turned down offers to join teams because I dislike the 12 man level of gameplay (meta, arty/airstrike spamming) now I'm being forced into it if I want to play with a couple of friends.

I would have preferred a separate 4,,8 or 12 man group qeues for those that want that.
I like the idea of the pug queue, where each team gets one premade.....now it's play like it's a tourney or don't bother. Hopefully it'll settle down over the next few weeks.
Until it does,my solo play time is going to increase:)

Edited by kamiko kross, 03 July 2014 - 10:03 AM.

[Caviel]

Ghost Badger, on 03 July 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

As a team of mixed groups, you could have up to 6 assaults, facing those 3. You could outnumber their lights. Or heavies.

Not true. From the patch notes:

Over time, the matchmaker will relax both Elo and weight class composition constraints. In the case of weight class composition, the matchmaker guarantees both teams end up matching.

You may end up with two teams of 2/1/6/3, although you will not see different weight class counts between the two teams.

[Caviel]

Lykaon, on 03 July 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

And grouping players get to be tossed into the random victory generator of the grouped queue.I have yet to collect data but,my theory is the side with the most players on the same VOIP will win the vast majority of the time.

If this does indeed turn out to be the case then we can conclude that the single most important factor for determining victory will be what side has the largest on VOIP group this of course means victory is largely predetermined by the match maker.

I agree this is likely the case. If it is true, Elo will fix this since the 8-10 and 12 pilot groups will go up in Elo while the 2-4 pilot groups will trend downward from where they are right now. That will means it will turn into 8-10 and 12 pilot groups playing other 8-10 and 12 pilot groups primarily with say a 12 pilot group playing a team of 4+4+4 that have a high Elo.

[Felbombling]

Lykaon, on 03 July 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

<<< Lots of good stuff. >>>

Furniture, on 03 July 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

<<< More good stuff. >>>

I seriously need to go back and revise the original post you two are quoting, because my point was missed by not specifying that solo players won't have to face group(s) larger than 5+ moving forward. I was speaking in general tones and moved from solo to small groups in my last sentence.

Having said all that, sync dropping can happen. We have reports of teams sync dropping to perform tournament games awhile ago. As another example, I was in a group that dropped, realized that the group above us in TeamSpeak had dropped into our team as well and then witnessed three of my group jump up to join them. I pleaded ignorance and stayed behind, because I thought it was a crap move. Crud like this happens, so don't tell me that it hasn't or doesn't, either by design or by accident.

Now, the new matchmaker is fantastic in that solo players will never again face a situation like I just described. I think we can all agree on that. PuG stomping is boring as all h*ll. On the flip side, I cannot really gather sympathy for players who have grouped up for months and gained all the benefits of voice comms, only to cry foul now that they've been thrust into the same situation that their former PuG opponents regularly found themselves. What do we normally see on the forums in defense of small groups and advice for PuGs? "Find more friends." "Join us on TeamSpeak." "Don't be so anti-social."

I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone that doesn't think voice comms are a tactical advantage in game. Given that, it seems rather odd to hear the complaints of small groups who have benefited tactically from the previous matchmaker suddenly get up in arms over this new version. Honestly, what do you think is more fair... small groups beating up on unorganized PuGs, or small groups on comms facing similar competition or larger groups? The PuGs have suffered enough... time for the small groups to take one for the team while community warfare gets implemented.

[WarZ]

StaggerCheck, on 03 July 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

It's a crapshoot now. Just before the patch a solo player could drop and find 12 PuGs on the other team, a bunch of PuGs and a group, a few PuGs and two groups or multiple small groups. Horrifically, it was possible that the groups you were facing started out or ended up on the same TeamSpeak channel. I know... I've seen it happen. How is that situation different from post patch, where you can find yourself as a solo player or group player facing all the above scenarios, except now full twelve man groups are in the mix? You know sync drops have happened before, so this is simply a continuation of the norm, but more organized!

I know right. People are acting like it was all roses and honey before the patch. They are completely ignoring the lopsided, imbalanced teams we'd get stuck with before. Situations worse than we are getting now. At least now if you are facing a large team of players, you at least have 2 or 3 grouped teams on your side to compete with. Instead of 12 pugs facing off against 2-3, 4 man teams (which was far worse).

And to note I've played a against a few of those large teams since patch in 2 and 3 man groups, and they were far from stomps. In some we may have lost 12-6 in the end, but it certainly wasnt 12-0.

A 2 man group I could see as being allowed to have the option to play in the solo queue only. Any group size larger should not.

Another thought is if there is a full 12 man team, they should be matched against other 12 mans first, then against the next largest possible group size (810 ?), then fill in with another random group. Just dont always put 3 different groups against a 12 man.

[Bryan Ekman]

jozkhan, on 03 July 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

In reply to Bryan.

Thanks for the info. I agree the solo queue seems ok but im not sure what you are saying as it seems contradictory.

'About 10-12% of group matches will be multiple groups vs a 12 man. Most of the time you are going up against multiple group teams (2-6 groups) depending on the time of day.'

Seems to suggest 88-90% of games are 12 man vs what exactly?

From our experience 90% of the matches we join with 1-4 players are matched vs 12 man.

Definitely not the case. There are not that many 12 player groups in the queue. If there are 100 matches being played right now, there would be 10 matches with at least one 12 player pre-made group. 90 matches would contain a mix of 2-6 groups on each side.

Just looking at legal even number team group make ups:

10+2 =12
8+4 = 12
8+2+2 = 12
6+6 = 12
6+4+2 =12
6+2+2+2 = 12
4+4+4 = 12
4+4+2+2 = 12
4+2+2+2+2 = 12
2+2+2+2+2+2 = 12

To answer another question - 12 man groups will try to be matched against other 12 mans first. If none are available then it looks for the next largest team size and so on.

[Bryan Ekman]

A side note - End scores also don't reflect a match sometimes. Often matches can be really close for 5-10 minutes before the first domino falls. What is a fun match? Something entirely subjective depending on each person's perspective on fun. Some people only want to stomp, some people are looking for close tight matches, others have no problem loosing a good close fight.

We try to focus on creating as even playing field as possible to promote a match that will result in a close game whenever possible. We can't control player behavior, which can drastically change the outcome of any match, no matter how even the teams. The mechanics of MWO/BT are built around attrition, the minute one team has an advantage in either armor/ammo/numbers etc.. the other other team will need to employ superior tactical play to overcome the deficits. Speaking in broad terms of course.

[AlmightyAeng]

Caviel, on 03 July 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

Not true. From the patch notes:

Over time, the matchmaker will relax both Elo and weight class composition constraints. In the case of weight class composition, the matchmaker guarantees both teams end up matching.

You may end up with two teams of 2/1/6/3, although you will not see different weight class counts between the two teams.

Well, in THAT case...if you have MORE than 3 of anything you are absolutely 100% assured that you did NOT go up against a 12-man, because they are restricted to 4x3. So, that's even better then, isn't it?

Edited by Ghost Badger, 03 July 2014 - 11:35 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Ghost Badger, on 03 July 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Well, in THAT case...if you have MORE than 3 of anything you are absolutely 100% assured that you did NOT go up against a 12-man, because they are restricted to 4x3. So, that's even better then, isn't it?

And before we get the anectdotal, "Not true I was solo and got stuck against a 12 man," not every group that "looks" like a 12 man IS a 12 man.

Had a drop last night where it was two teams of 4, a team of 2 and I think two solo players, it's just that on our side all but two of us had Davion tags, so to the other team, I'm sure we looked like, at the very least, a 10 man.

But no, some RRB got matched with some HHoD, the other side of course, panicked.

[jozkhan]

Well have played some more games all I can say is 4 minute matches really aren't much fun.

Perhaps it has just been a run of bad luck for me and my friends and I will see the clearer picture of time then...

Anyway thanks for the reply, appreciate you getting so involved in such a seemingly non-issue.

Clearly the statistics are always right.

It certainly is a blue moon when vass and ekman are lining up together!

Edited by jozkhan, 03 July 2014 - 11:42 AM.

[Caviel]

Ghost Badger, on 03 July 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Well, in THAT case...if you have MORE than 3 of anything you are absolutely 100% assured that you did NOT go up against a 12-man, because they are restricted to 4x3. So, that's even better then, isn't it?

Yes, if you end up in a non 3/3/3/3 match, it isn't a 12 pilot group on the other side. Could be a 10+2, but not a 12.

Dimento Graven, on 03 July 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

And before we get the anectdotal, "Not true I was solo and got stuck against a 12 man," not every group that "looks" like a 12 man IS a 12 man.

Wouldn't be much of an anecdote. Solo players will, at "worst", have a single 4 pilot group on the other team with the rest being solo players.

Quote

Had a drop last night where it was two teams of 4, a team of 2 and I think two solo players, it's just that on our side all but two of us had Davion tags, so to the other team, I'm sure we looked like, at the very least, a 10 man.

Also not possible, one 2-4 group max per team with solo players. may have been 4+4+2+2, would not have been any solo players in that match either side if there were two full lance groups on one side.

jozkhan, on 03 July 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

Clearly the statistics are always right.

The matchmaker isn't perfect, and it always sucks to be an edge case. There are some "exploits" (For a lack of better term) in the inherent design that will need to be addressed. For example, thinking about our 10-pilot group drops I was in last night, it looks like there is a way to:

-See few 12 pilot groups
-Be matched against primarily opposing teams of 3-4 groups (4+4+2+2, 4+4+4, 3+5+4, etc.)

This is based on a few MM requirements:

-Groups MUST adhere to the 3/3/3/3 makeup
-The matchmaker will not put two mech class mismatched teams together.
-A 10 pilot group can only get a completed team with another group of 2 since solo players will not be used.

Since 12 pilot groups MUST be 3/3/3/3, make a 10 pilot group leaving out two of the mech classes with the lowest online percentage. For example, if the playing distro looks like this:

Light: 20%
Medium: 10%
Heavy: 35%
Assault: 35%

..build your team as a 3/1/3/3 setup. This means in order to actually get a 3/3/3/3 match there has to be a duo group of 2 mediums. In this case it would be statistically small odds causing the MM release valves to kick in setting you up as say 3/1/5/3, or 3/1/4/4 meaning no 10+2 vs 12 matches possible.

In addition, the chances of another 8-10 pilot team with the same weight classes are also statistically lower (Unless they game the system the way way), so the MM is going to hodgepodge together an opposing 4+3+3+2 team (Or similar variation) to fit the weight class requirements of your 10+2 team.

Edited by Caviel, 03 July 2014 - 11:58 AM.