63 replies to this topic

[KamikazeRat]

vesarius6, on 03 July 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

So you can drop an atlas from orbit into battle - no problem.
But if he falls off a 10 meter hill (about his waist height) he takes damage - makes sense to me.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Drop_Pod

[Bishop Steiner]

Carrioncrows, on 03 July 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

Because it's the Future

A Future where:

mguns that only go 200m
Flamers that can't light a camp fire.
missiles that only go 1000m
and SRM's that are really rockets
tree's don't get knocked over
and Armor can magically not take damage falling.

I would rather have piloting checks when you push your gyro then misc leg damage.



I am fine with that.

It's up to the enemy to do damage to you.

Piloting checks is a far better system to have in place than taking random damage to a location

Totally disagree.

Doing "Gundam" stunts only takes away from the immersion of the game.

I just took my Locust out in the testing Grounds, Crimson Strait. Mind you a single run is hardly conclusive, but play along with me here.

when I ran along and jumpe doff the 5 meter tall platforms in D5, I took ZERO leg damage, traveling over 150 kph, and ran off them multiple times. Even ran off 3 in a row, max speed. Zero leg damage.

In C4, there is an approximately 10 meter shelf running along the hillside, from the saddle along the upper deck. Dropping off that, did 1% damage to my mech.

Dropping off the parking garage deck, be it at 10 kph I took 2% damage. Running off at 150 kph , I hit 57 ft/s (I should have checked that more frequently, will when the video processes) and took 3% damage.

Minor, overall, though mind you, being confined to the legs, it adds up.

Now, for the money trick.

I run up the side of the E4 hill, as far as I can, and fling myself off into space, aiming for the saddle. Well over 50 meters from the Ground. I take 10% damage, hitting over 70 ft/s fall velocity. And still, after all that, while both legs are internal and have FINALLY suffered critical damage, still have full mobility.


Yes, I took a 20 ton tank on pencil legs, with no JJs, and or Parachutes, and FLUNG it over 50 meters/150+ ft to the ground, and walked away. Technically still ran away.


You will have to forgive me if I think people doth protest too much, but in my admittedly limited testing, I did not damage my legs from running drops, unless, they were over a second, or 10 meters, give or take, (bouncing fall down the side of a hill did damage too, but TBH, there were many points I was airborne over a second doing so.)

Dropping 10 meters did negligible damage, and 20+ meters only a little more. (on the lightest armored mech in the game). Enough to remind me that I can take shortcuts, but they will hurt.

at 50 meters, I take noticeable damage, but still only took critical due to have taken 9% health damage previously to my legs from previous jumps.

In other words, I do something suicidally STUPID, and not only live to tell the tail, but am still running at 150 kph to boot (albeit sans any armor left on my legs).

Sorry, but at least so far, seems to be a lot of compñaing about essentially being given a gentle reminder about physics, and map awareness. You will have to forgive me if I think someone throwing their Locust off of the top of Candy Mountain in Alpine should ned in a rolling fireball of scattered limbs.

vesarius6, on 03 July 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

So you can drop an atlas from orbit into battle - no problem.
But if he falls off a 10 meter hill (about his waist height) he takes damage - makes sense to me.

Drops from orbits are done with jump packs and parachutes. Not exactly the same thing.

[Riptor]

Mechs dont take fall damage for the same reasons humans dont take fall damage.

Mechs take fall damage for the same reasons humans take fall damage.

Its all about the weight and velocity.

A mechs Myomer muscles can absorb a certain amount of shock without the mech taking any damage, that is why jump mechs can jump around like they are bloody gundams in the battletech universe.

But fall from to great a height or have a certain amount of impact speed and those muscles wont be able to absorb the shock and nasty stuff happens.

So all your tank comparisons can go straight out of the window, a tank neither has legs nor muscles, its just a solid box of metall


Seriously people have to stop thinking that mechs = tanks on legs

They have skeletons and they have muscles.. thats the entire reason they where so successfull in the battletech universe instead of sticking with tanks, they can be used in any terrain, move like a human can and even work under different gravitations without becomming immobile.

Read some books

Edited by Riptor, 03 July 2014 - 01:16 PM.

[stjobe]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 July 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

Drops from orbits are done with jump packs and parachutes. Not exactly the same thing.

Quote

The Drop Pod itself consists of an ablative and ceramic shell (the 'pod') that allows the unit to enter the atmosphere intact. The entire system consists of the pod, jets, parachutes, and flight computers (that enable the unit to land relatively close to the drop zone) and a cocoon of spun foam and a ceramic structure. At a pre-timed position, the pod explodes into five sections (with the possible benefit of distracting ground-based sensors), freeing the unit. The cocoon then melts away in the remaining heat. Once free of the effects of the Drop Pod, the BattleMech relies on jump jets, a jump pack, and/or specialized parachutes to land safely on the ground

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Drop_Pod (emphasis mine)

Also, as CarrionCrows pointed out, leg damage isn't just any old damage; it's one of three ways to actually kill a 'mech (legging, engine destruction, cockpit destruction).

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 03 July 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Drop_Pod (emphasis mine)

Also, as CarrionCrows pointed out, leg damage isn't just any old damage; it's one of three ways to actually kill a 'mech (legging, engine destruction, cockpit destruction).

Indeed.

and pilots who take no note of their environment, and think they should be able to fling themselves off cliffs with abandon, should take damage for it, no mater how big their beast.

Much like with Hill Climb, it was short cuts we all got used to, no matter how good or bad, and have taken for granted. Now, we can still use them, but it runs a risk. I don't see how that is a bad thing. If anything, it should knock the rust off (literally in some cases) where we have allowed ourselves to be lazy in our situational awareness.

I'm sorry if I am not convinced this is a bad thing.

[Carrioncrows]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 July 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

Totally disagree.

Doing "Gundam" stunts only takes away from the immersion of the game.

I just took my Locust out in the testing Grounds, Crimson Strait. Mind you a single run is hardly conclusive, but play along with me here.

when I ran along and jumpe doff the 5 meter tall platforms in D5, I took ZERO leg damage, traveling over 150 kph, and ran off them multiple times. Even ran off 3 in a row, max speed. Zero leg damage.

In C4, there is an approximately 10 meter shelf running along the hillside, from the saddle along the upper deck. Dropping off that, did 1% damage to my mech.

Dropping off the parking garage deck, be it at 10 kph I took 2% damage. Running off at 150 kph , I hit 57 ft/s (I should have checked that more frequently, will when the video processes) and took 3% damage.

Minor, overall, though mind you, being confined to the legs, it adds up.

Now, for the money trick.

I run up the side of the E4 hill, as far as I can, and fling myself off into space, aiming for the saddle. Well over 50 meters from the Ground. I take 10% damage, hitting over 70 ft/s fall velocity. And still, after all that, while both legs are internal and have FINALLY suffered critical damage, still have full mobility.


Yes, I took a 20 ton tank on pencil legs, with no JJs, and or Parachutes, and FLUNG it over 50 meters/150+ ft to the ground, and walked away. Technically still ran away.


You will have to forgive me if I think people doth protest too much, but in my admittedly limited testing, I did not damage my legs from running drops, unless, they were over a second, or 10 meters, give or take, (bouncing fall down the side of a hill did damage too, but TBH, there were many points I was airborne over a second doing so.)

Dropping 10 meters did negligible damage, and 20+ meters only a little more. (on the lightest armored mech in the game). Enough to remind me that I can take shortcuts, but they will hurt.

at 50 meters, I take noticeable damage, but still only took critical due to have taken 9% health damage previously to my legs from previous jumps.

In other words, I do something suicidally STUPID, and not only live to tell the tail, but am still running at 150 kph to boot (albeit sans any armor left on my legs).

Sorry, but at least so far, seems to be a lot of compñaing about essentially being given a gentle reminder about physics, and map awareness. You will have to forgive me if I think someone throwing their Locust off of the top of Candy Mountain in Alpine should ned in a rolling fireball of scattered limbs.


Drops from orbits are done with jump packs and parachutes. Not exactly the same thing.

So highlanders can DFA on another mech and the only one who takes damage is the highlander.
Mechs can slam into each other at a combined 340 kph but not even take a whisker of damage.
But mechs without jumpjets take damage to their legs going off a 5 meter drop slowly.

And I would be fine with that if getting both of my legs ruined didn't equal mech death.

(ruin both battlemech legs you knockdown for 5 secs then plod around at 15kph is what I say)

Heavies, mediums, and assaults can all afford to take damage to the legs because it's not a primary targeting location.

So the most agile battlemechs can't afford to be agile anymore "unless" they have jumpjets.

The piloting check (Knockdown) is still a preferable method to solving these issues, that and we get some good ol fashion battletech goodness back into the game.

[krash27]

vesarius6, on 03 July 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

So you can drop an atlas from orbit into battle - no problem.
But if he falls off a 10 meter hill (about his waist height) he takes damage - makes sense to me.

You sure can, if that atlas has temporary jump packs installed.
Maybe actually take the time to read the lore.

[Dymlos2003]

Situational awareness is a requirement for piloting fast mechanism hell too be good at Mechwarrior.

Edited by Dymlos2003, 03 July 2014 - 01:32 PM.

[stjobe]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 July 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

Indeed.

and pilots who take no note of their environment, and think they should be able to fling themselves off cliffs with abandon, should take damage for it, no mater how big their beast.

Much like with Hill Climb, it was short cuts we all got used to, no matter how good or bad, and have taken for granted. Now, we can still use them, but it runs a risk. I don't see how that is a bad thing. If anything, it should knock the rust off (literally in some cases) where we have allowed ourselves to be lazy in our situational awareness.

I'm sorry if I am not convinced this is a bad thing.

Fall damage should be for falls - i.e. for losing control of your 'mech, not for standard combat maneuvers like running or jumping.

A 'mech could drop 2 elevation levels (12 m) without damage no matter what speed it was going in TT. Drop more than that, you'd have to make a piloting roll to avoid damage, +1 on the roll per level dropped. Which meant, basically, that a regular pilot stood a 1 in 12 chance of taking zero damage from dropping almost 50 meters (piloting skill 4 + 8 levels = 12, boxcars will do it), and had a 50% chance of not taking any damage from an 18 m drop at full speed.

Edited by stjobe, 03 July 2014 - 01:44 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Carrioncrows, on 03 July 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

So highlanders can DFA on another mech and the only one who takes damage is the highlander.
Mechs can slam into each other at a combined 340 kph but not even take a whisker of damage.
But mechs without jumpjets take damage to their legs going off a 5 meter drop slowly.

And I would be fine with that if getting both of my legs ruined didn't equal mech death.

(ruin both battlemech legs you knockdown for 5 secs then plod around at 15kph is what I say)

Heavies, mediums, and assaults can all afford to take damage to the legs because it's not a primary targeting location.

So the most agile battlemechs can't afford to be agile anymore "unless" they have jumpjets.

The piloting check (Knockdown) is still a preferable method to solving these issues, that and we get some good ol fashion battletech goodness back into the game.

Yes, because knockdown worked SOOOOOOOOO well in CB.

Or are you forgetting the Clipping?

As for DFA, we don't have it. But the Highlander, was landing on specially reinforced legs (remember the WASP had to have it's structure reinforced because jump kicks were causing them to shear at the hip). And yeah, even that was, to put it mildly, skosh ridiculous.

As for high speed impacts, I'm all for them adding that in, when they get collisions sorted out.

But so far, in my admittedly limited testing
Running caused no leg damage
Running off 5 meter cliffs, did none, even at full speed.
Drops over 10-25 meters did minimal damage
Insane drops that should cause insta frikkin death, actually were not enough to leg my Locust, and in fact would not even got to internals, if my armor was whole.

Or, if you take minor falls (10-30 meters... because 100 ft drops are minor things) , unless you are severely damaged, or do it a lot, (in which case, pay attention where you are driving?) you do minimal damage.

You do utterly stupid things, like flinging yourself off a 300 ft cliff, you take heavy damage, when you should be dead.

Yeah. Sorry if I think maybe people might be exaggerating the issue, so far. Perhaps I will find with further testing that aint the case, but based off of my findings, and our debate, I am not seeing it.

stjobe, on 03 July 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

Fall damage should be for falls - i.e. for losing control of your 'mech, not for standard combat maneuvers like running or jumping.

A 'mech could drop 2 elevation levels (12 m) without damage no matter what speed it was going in TT. Drop more than that, you'd have to make a piloting roll to avoid damage, +1 on the roll per level dropped. Which meant, basically, that a regular pilot stood a 1 in 12 chance of taking zero damage from dropping almost 50 meters (piloting skill 4 + 8 levels = 12, boxcars will do it), and had a 50% chance of not taking any damage from an 18 m drop at full speed.

And so far it has been 10 meters I have taken damage at. Close enough to 12 for me not to care. When I start actually recording damage while running or minor falls, I'll get back to you. So far I haven't.

[Willard Phule]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 July 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

it's actually the non jumping Lights and such getting it the worst.

But again, running a 30 ton vehicle off a 100 ft cliff, really shouldn't end well......

Yeah, man, but.....there's a HUGE difference between a Mechwarrior and a D.A.T (Dumb Ass Tanker). LOL. Man, I can only imagine trying to explain THAT one to the 1SG....

[stjobe]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 July 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

And so far it has been 10 meters I have taken damage at. Close enough to 12 for me not to care. When I start actually recording damage while running or minor falls, I'll get back to you. So far I haven't.

Have you tried what I suggested in an earlier post today (you know the one, where you took umbrage at me mad-libbing your "weeding out" remark ) and ran a 150+ light down a slope? That's where it breaks for me at least. HPG is full of good slopes for it, as is Alpine.

[Mad Strike]

Remove leg damage.......NOPE....definetly not. It's fine , save 50% of your jumpjets and everything will be allright.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 July 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

Yes, because knockdown worked SOOOOOOOOO well in CB.

Or are you forgetting the Clipping?

As for DFA, we don't have it. But the Highlander, was landing on specially reinforced legs (remember the WASP had to have it's structure reinforced because jump kicks were causing them to shear at the hip). And yeah, even that was, to put it mildly, skosh ridiculous.

As for high speed impacts, I'm all for them adding that in, when they get collisions sorted out.

But so far, in my admittedly limited testing
Running caused no leg damage
Running off 5 meter cliffs, did none, even at full speed.
Drops over 10-25 meters did minimal damage
Insane drops that should cause insta frikkin death, actually were not enough to leg my Locust, and in fact would not even got to internals, if my armor was whole.

Or, if you take minor falls (10-30 meters... because 100 ft drops are minor things) , unless you are severely damaged, or do it a lot, (in which case, pay attention where you are driving?) you do minimal damage.

You do utterly stupid things, like flinging yourself off a 300 ft cliff, you take heavy damage, when you should be dead.

Yeah. Sorry if I think maybe people might be exaggerating the issue, so far. Perhaps I will find with further testing that aint the case, but based off of my findings, and our debate, I am not seeing it.


And so far it has been 10 meters I have taken damage at. Close enough to 12 for me not to care. When I start actually recording damage while running or minor falls, I'll get back to you. So far I haven't.

I just ran off the top of the tallest peaks in Alpine, over 100 meters, and recorded descents speeds of 119 ft/s and 127 ft/s.
The first did 6% damage and reduced my LCT to orange armor. The second reduced me another 6% leaving my legs at Cherry red armor, and my total health at 89% (though a secondary bounce on the second just brought me to intervals and 86% health).

2 Jumps, over 100 meters each, uncontrolled, and I still had leg armor, on the most lightly armored mech in the game.

[stjobe]

strikebrch, on 03 July 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Remove leg damage.......NOPE....definetly not. It's fine , save 50% of your jumpjets and everything will be allright.

Again, my Commando doesn't have jump jets.

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 03 July 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Have you tried what I suggested in an earlier post today (you know the one, where you took umbrage at me mad-libbing your "weeding out" remark ) and ran a 150+ light down a slope? That's where it breaks for me at least. HPG is full of good slopes for it, as is Alpine.

Just did, and aside from what could be best described as a controlled fall down the big slopes, I took no damage. And those "runs down the cliff face" that did do damage had MULTIPLE instances of being airborne for considerably over a second at a time.

stjobe, on 03 July 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

Again, my Commando doesn't have jump jets.

So stop trying to base jump in in it.

[Sephlock]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 July 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

Just did, and aside from what could be best described as a controlled fall down the big slopes, I took no damage. And those "runs down the cliff face" that did do damage had MULTIPLE instances of being airborne for considerably over a second at a time.


So stop trying to base jump in in it.

I thought you were against pop tarts, turns out you're just against air time.

Not cool ;(.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sephlock, on 03 July 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

I thought you were against pop tarts, turns out you're just against air time.

Not cool ;(.

Ask for parachute Module?

or maybe....

[stjobe]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 July 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

Just did, and aside from what could be best described as a controlled fall down the big slopes, I took no damage. And those "runs down the cliff face" that did do damage had MULTIPLE instances of being airborne for considerably over a second at a time.

Interesting, I'll have to do a few more test runs then. It was pretty consistent in my 171 kph TDK.

Bishop Steiner, on 03 July 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

So stop trying to base jump in in it.

What?! Base jumping in a Commando is a way of life, man! Stop trying to repress me, man! Not cool!

[YueFei]

Bishop Steiner, on 03 July 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

Just did, and aside from what could be best described as a controlled fall down the big slopes, I took no damage. And those "runs down the cliff face" that did do damage had MULTIPLE instances of being airborne for considerably over a second at a time.

I have no issue with fall damage being in the game. I'm even totally in support of having major leg damage from big drops.

The problem I have is that the current threshold is set too low.

An F-18 can drop 6 meters onto much flimsier landing gear, and that thing can mass 20+ tons. An F-14 probably passes the same test, since both are carrier aircraft, and that thing masses 30+ tons. They'd hit the ground at 10+ meters/sec from that height.

Right now our fall damage threshold is set to 10 meters/sec of vertical speed. I'd recommend bumping it up to 18 meters/sec before fall damage even kicks in.