160 replies to this topic

[Cion]

***Final edit: I feel like I got a lot of GOOD feedback. I did my best to summarize some at the bottom of THIS post. Thanks all****

So I rarely make any quick judgements. I never complained about the LRMpocalipse, SRMgeddon, the PPC/AC stuff, jumsniping, LRMpocalipse2, etc. I always found a way around it, tactics, loadouts, etc. Sure, maybe not as efficient, but did a decent job.

I did not complain about the Clan mechs. Yes, the devs did it relatively good, making longer laser durations, and different lrm mechanics so they are not totally OP.

When clans came out, I could still hold my own vs some. Many TBs were just simply cocky and that killed em. Direwolves got LRMd to death, etc.

These last few days though, I am finally starting to *feel* outgunned. Doesnt matter what mech I take, there is a better, faster, more powerful (BY A LOT) Clan mech out there. It feels like my IS mechs are just outclassed in every arena, speed, mobility, guns, etc.

Dunno if its clan players having finally mastered their clan mechs, or just more experience, or something.

Any suggestions on how to take the fight to those clan mechs on IS mechs? tactics, loadouts, etc? I'm running out of ideas.

On a side note, I've always liked making the underdog mech work. I've piloted Awesomes to decent success when everyone hated them. At the moment though, I cant seem to make IS mechs work vs Clans.

Thanks.

PS: let's avoid starting a new "this is OP", I'm looking for new ideas. thnx.
edit: bold the actual question so ppl know this is not a whine thread but seeking new ideas thread. gosh.

--------------------------------
For those interested, here are some ideas given (I usually ran meds/heavies brawlers. sometimes lrm boats and assaults).

About Clan Mechs
-Have slow/limited arm movement. Shoot them from different angles
-Low hardpoints. Shoot over cover with high mounted weapons
-Lights are slow, assaults are VERY slow. Care against Meds.Heavies.
-Most weapons on arms. Take off arms or side torsos rather than go for CT
-Someone suggested when going against meds/heavies (harder Clan mechs), shoot a leg and leave them till they are alone, then finish them.

About IS mech
-Many people posted successful crit heavy builds
-a few mentioned to go very fast to have a chance (100+)
-Many suggested more fire once weapons (ACs, Gauss and SRMs vs Lasers)
-Many suggested a higher emphasis on pinpoint damage (Gauss, AC 10, etc).

Piloting Meds
-Pick better mechs to support (I used to always support the atlas, now I should maybe support the Warhawk, or DireWolf.). Take a look at their weapons ingame to figure it out
-Go fast 90+.
-Double the normal emphasis on hit and cover.

General
-get better chassis
-Tweak mouse sensitivity to better pinpoint w lasers
-have swtichable arm lock key to aid in pinpoint and still have flexibility to move arms when needed.

Obvious:
-torso twist
-use cover
-move around
-stick with your team
-etc etc etc.
-oh, and buy clan mechs, lol

edit 2: added a summary of some responses.

Thanks all, I consider this more than enough for me to try.

Edited by Cion, 07 July 2014 - 08:30 PM.

[FupDup]

The Clans almost always have the DPS advantage, but this is counteracted by most weapons spreading damage more (i.e. burst ACs). They also just have a lot more weapon variety due to the size of their arsenal. Their ER lasers give them excellent range, too.

The IS advantages are better pinpoint accuracy and better customization (i.e. can change internal structure and engine at will, but the Clans cannot). The top IS mechs also have superior hitboxes, such as the Shadow Hawk, Victor, Ember, and Stalker.

Edited by FupDup, 06 July 2014 - 07:37 PM.

[Aresye]

I think it's mainly that a lot of IS pilots learned how to counter Clan mechs while us Clan pilots were still figuring out how to exactly run these things efficiently. Now that we've settled into the right groove, the right loadouts, etc, those tactics aren't as efficient as they once were.

[Scratx]

My dual gauss jager still works like a charm. My dual AC10 dual medlas standard engine jager funnily enough also still works just fine.

I'm too sleepy right now to hunt down every build of mine that seems to work fine, though.

[Sandpit]

It may also have to do with your Elo climbing to stiffer competition. From what I've seen, if you go charging in against clans you're going to get clubbed fairly quickly (not that I'm saying you are) so I've learned patience is even more key against clan mechs

[Devlin Pierce]

Trading directly with a clan mech is suicide. I wouldn't recommend it.

[RangerGee412]

Hit and run tactics. Getting in a straight up fight will get you killed alot of times.

Go for side torsos or arms. Wont kill them but it cuts their firepower down alot. I always aim for the missile pods on a timberwolf, they cant twisting enough to protect them.

Leg them if you can.

If your playing solo bring a narc or tag. Hopefully your team has lrms. Lrms are the devil to clan mechs.

You've been play in for a while so I'm sure you torso twist which can really save your hide against the clan mechs.

From load your armor more.

The closer the better, negate their range advantage.

Edited by RangerGee412, 06 July 2014 - 07:42 PM.

[Cion]

thanks for all the replies.

FupDup, on 06 July 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

The Clans almost always have the DPS advantage, but this is counteracted by most weapons spreading damage more (i.e. burst ACs). They also just have a lot more weapon variety due to the size of their arsenal. Their ER lasers give them excellent range, too.

The IS advantages are better pinpoint accuracy and better customization (i.e. can change internal structure and engine at will, but the Clans cannot). The top IS mechs also have superior hitboxes, such as the Shadow Hawk, Victor, Ember, and Stalker.

Seems to me, lately, that even with the oportunity to modify the engine and internals, I still feel outgunned. maybe I should focus more on pintpoint damage, been working with SRMs lately and that may not help much...

Scratx, on 06 July 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

My dual gauss jager still works like a charm. My dual AC10 dual medlas standard engine jager funnily enough also still works just fine.

I'm too sleepy right now to hunt down every build of mine that seems to work fine, though.

again, maybe I should focus more on pinpoint weapons, like gauss and Ac10. I usually use everything else (lasers, ppcs, srms and lrms). that may be it.

Sandpit, on 06 July 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

It may also have to do with your Elo climbing to stiffer competition. From what I've seen, if you go charging in against clans you're going to get clubbed fairly quickly (not that I'm saying you are) so I've learned patience is even more key against clan mechs

maybe but I have no way of confirming it. I just dont worry about ELO

Devlin Pierce, on 06 July 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

Trading directly with a clan mech is suicide. I wouldn't recommend it.

probably yes =/ lol

RangerGee412, on 06 July 2014 - 07:40 PM, said:

Hit and run tactics. Getting in a straight up fight will get you killed alot of times.

Go for side torsos or arms. Wont kill them but it cuts their firepower down alot. I always aim for the missile pods on a timberwolf, they cant twisting enough to protect them.

Leg them if you can.

If your playing solo bring a narc or tag. Hopefully your team has lrms. Lrms are the devil to clan mechs.

You've been play in for a while so I'm sure you torso twist which can really save your hide against the clan mechs.

From load your armor more.

The closer the better, negate their range advantage.

As a concept sounds great, but...
I sold most of my lights. I enjoy mediums and heavies, with the ocassional assault. I've noticed that hit and run dont work quite well when I see heavy clans mechs outrunning my mediums.

[HBizzle]

Learn to play better, build better mechs, or buy the clan mechs. Your choice.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

Clans are suppose to be better then IS. That does not mean they are OP. Btw I did not buy one clan, not one. Nor will I when they can be got with MC. AND I only pilot lights.

Maybe since lights leave no room for mistakes I learned faster then the rest of you.

I O.N.L.Y. play lights. If I make a mistake with a clan mech I will pay 4 it. But you pay for mistakes with IS and clans when groped against good players.


Learn... to... play...

Stop standing STILL in the open
Stop stopping to shoot
COVER IS YOUR BEST FRIEND!


There is no such think as OP clans, only people who are better then you, or you paying for your mistakes.

Stop blaming every thing under the sun, and start thinking about how YOU could have done better!

[Cion]

HBizzle, on 06 July 2014 - 07:47 PM, said:

Learn to play better, build better mechs, or buy the clan mechs. Your choice.

I hope this is a joke.

That's what this thread is about, asking for suggestions on how to play better, or get better builds. You are not adding anything to the conversation . I can't justify the price for clan mechs atm. I just buy MC here and there. but that doesnt even matter in this thread. Please submit a constructive idea if you have one. this is not a "clans are op" thread. Please read next time. peace.

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 06 July 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

.....
Stop blaming every thing under the sun, and start thinking about how YOU could have done better!

Do people not read these days? thanks for the post, but if you read, that is exactly what I'm asking about. New ideas, tactics, builds I have not thought of before. No one is blaming or crying "OP"

Please read next time. New ideas welcome. Thanks.

[Bishop Steiner]

Devlin Pierce, on 06 July 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

Trading directly with a clan mech is suicide. I wouldn't recommend it.

I do it quite regularly. Coring out Timberwolves in my Jager or Orion is actually quite therapeutic.

[HBizzle]

Cion, on 06 July 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

I hope this is a joke.

That's what this thread is about, asking for suggestions on how to play better, or get better builds. You are not adding anything to the conversation . I can't justify the price for clan mechs atm. I just buy MC here and there. but that doesnt even matter in this thread. Please submit a constructive idea if you have one. this is not a "clans are op" thread. Please read next time. peace.


Do people not read these days? thanks for the post, but if you read, that is exactly what I'm asking about. New ideas, tactics, builds I have not thought of before. No one is blaming or crying "OP"

Please read next time. New ideas welcome. Thanks.

Well what is your standard build? What is your average heat efficiency? Have you tweaked your mouse settings out of game, and in game, to aim better?

[Cion]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 July 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

I do it quite regularly. Coring out Timberwolves in my Jager or Orion is actually quite therapeutic.

do you favor spread or pinpoint damage (ex: SRMS vs ACs) on those builds?

[Mcgral18]

Build a WubShee, the Clans can't handle it.


Or a slightly more effective poptart, your choice of chassis. AC20 brawler is a slightly more risky, but still rewarding choice.

[Cion]

HBizzle, on 06 July 2014 - 07:54 PM, said:

Well what is your standard build? What is your average heat efficiency? Have you tweaked your mouse settings out of game, and in game, to aim better?

I play mainly brawlers, with LRM boat every now and then. I noted previously I do favor lasers and srms, but thanks to the comments I'm re-thinking that. I'm a decent player that never had any problems against other "flavors of the month" because I use tactics and counter builds. Everyone LRMing? snap AMS on every mech and play trenches. everyone jumpsniping? Move around the map using cover, etc.

Yes I've tweaked the mouse sensitivity. I'm good at torso twisting. I make tactical mistakes like everyone, but I have pretty good situational awareness (at least more than average). My aiming is **DECENT**, not perfect.

Ohh, I really dont use JJs. Maybe that's something else I should reconsider.

thanks.

[MischiefSC]

You are not incorrect.

A big problem with the Clan/IS balance is that the Clan mechs severely out-DPS every IS mech. If you run anything but a PPFLD build you're playing at a disadvantage.

You're also correct on the 'mastering' bit. Early on while getting the *feel* for my Timber Wolf I'd have stretches of 14 games where I lost everyone and died with no kills. Now that I've got 3 builds that I really, really understand and have most of my chassis at Master or at least double-basics it's rare for me to die and most matches I'm 2-5 kills (2ERLL, UAC20, ammo, JJs and DHS to use them relentlessly). I suspect others are the same - finally getting their Clan-legs under them.

However, the PPFLD builds are still just stupidly dangerous. So are SRMs. An SRM boat medium IS build with JJs can still handily crush any Clan mech around 1 on 1 up close. Something like a Banshee with the 3xAC5,2xPPC and some decent aim still crushes Clanners until it gets bored with the little noises they make. A good Jag gauss-sniper can make a killing - Timber Wolf cockpits are large and centrally located. Backstabbing a Dire Wolf or Warhawk with a little laserboat light has never been easier. They're fatter and slower than a Stalker. Many Clan mechs do not effectively load AMS - LRMboats have never been better, especially with the prevalence of NARC among teammates (though always, ALWAYS bring your own TAG and at least 2MLs!)

Many IS builds are trash now though. Many more chassis that were marginal before are even more fodder now. Anything that tries to stare down a Clanner is doomed. Boomjags are still dangerous but the prevalence of incredibly long ranged weapons and SRMs have blunted its survival significantly.

Re-evaluate your builds. Honestly? Approach it from 'can this kill 2 or 3 Timber Wolves and if not, how can it' and you'll start moving towards what works.

Swing when you're hit. Never stop - ever, in any mech, at all, if there's any chance of being shot at. Time to start/stop matters with 1.5 second lasers. A pair of clan ERLLs or grouped UAC fire will destroy you before you get to full acceleration if they catch you flat footed - they'll splatter 5 or 10 points over you at most if they catch you on the move.

The old tactics of 'stand, snipe, stand, snipe, jump, lean, shoot, backup, wait, lean, snipe, stand' don't work anymore and drive a lot of frustration for people who don't like the new meta. You don't really see a lot of 3Ds anymore - wide and slow on most the grandfathered sniper builds that were common with them. Mobility and pivoting are far more useful than jump, shoot, land, wait.

Good luck.

Edited by MischiefSC, 06 July 2014 - 08:00 PM.

[Cion]

MischiefSC, on 06 July 2014 - 07:59 PM, said:

You are not incorrect.

A big problem with the Clan/IS balance is that the Clan mechs severely out-DPS every IS mech. If you run anything but a PPFLD build you're playing at a disadvantage.

You're also correct on the 'mastering' bit. Early on while getting the *feel* for my Timber Wolf I'd have stretches of 14 games where I lost everyone and died with no kills. Now that I've got 3 builds that I really, really understand and have most of my chassis at Master or at least double-basics it's rare for me to die and most matches I'm 2-5 kills (2ERLL, UAC20, ammo, JJs and DHS to use them relentlessly). I suspect others are the same - finally getting their Clan-legs under them.

However, the PPFLD builds are still just stupidly dangerous. So are SRMs. An SRM boat medium IS build with JJs can still handily crush any Clan mech around 1 on 1 up close. Something like a Banshee with the 3xAC5,2xPPC and some decent aim still crushes Clanners until it gets bored with the little noises they make. A good Jag gauss-sniper can make a killing - Timber Wolf cockpits are large and centrally located. Backstabbing a Dire Wolf or Warhawk with a little laserboat light has never been easier. They're fatter and slower than a Stalker. Many Clan mechs do not effectively load AMS - LRMboats have never been better, especially with the prevalence of NARC among teammates (though always, ALWAYS bring your own TAG and at least 2MLs!)

Many IS builds are trash now though. Many more chassis that were marginal before are even more fodder now. Anything that tries to stare down a Clanner is doomed. Boomjags are still dangerous but the prevalence of incredibly long ranged weapons and SRMs have blunted its survival significantly.

Re-evaluate your builds. Honestly? Approach it from 'can this kill 2 or 3 Timber Wolves and if not, how can it' and you'll start moving towards what works.
....
Good luck.

this is really helpful. thanks. I'll start making some adjustments, trying and re-evaluating.

I guess my old style of play got obsolete (at least by a wider margin than it was before the clans). will make some changes

[HBizzle]

Cion, on 06 July 2014 - 07:59 PM, said:

I play mainly brawlers, with LRM boat every now and then. I noted previously I do favor lasers and srms, but thanks to the comments I'm re-thinking that. I'm a decent player that never had any problems against other "flavors of the month" because I use tactics and counter builds. Everyone LRMing? snap AMS on every mech and play trenches. everyone jumpsniping? Move around the map using cover, etc.

Yes I've tweaked the mouse sensitivity. I'm good at torso twisting. I make tactical mistakes like everyone, but I have pretty good situational awareness (at least more than average). My aiming is **DECENT**, not perfect.

Ohh, I really dont use JJs. Maybe that's something else I should reconsider.

thanks.

Spend time getting your mouse sensitivity down pat. Adjust the mouse in and out of game. I have taken time to get mine better, but am tweaking it more as I go along.

I would switch from laser builds to more pinpoint heavy builds. Also if you are using lasers, or any build really, I would actually keep your arms locked so you are more likely to have all of your damage locked on one body part when you deliver it. I see way too many players using arms unlocked and having their damage spread over all of a mech, instead of hitting one spot, which is more likely to actually remove a part. Use your pinky to unlock when you need it by using the shift key.

Playing a brawler can be loads of fun, but exposes you to a lot of damage, and the game fundamentally runs on damage per second. That means if you are more apt to take a lot of damage in a short amount of time, you will not have the time needed to deliver more damage to your opponent. If you start thinking of the game as a math problem, i.e. how can I deliver more damage over a longer period of time, then you will improve your builds dramatically.

What is the average in game heat efficiency of your mechs?

Edited by HBizzle, 06 July 2014 - 08:09 PM.

[ArmandTulsen]

OP, that feeling you're experiencing... I got news for you:

It's not a feeling. It's the reality of the situation.

You ARE outgunned.