46 replies to this topic

[Mudhutwarrior]

Warblood, on 07 July 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

ooh we do lol .. but when it comes to math, ummm yeah lol theirs a reason you haven't heard of a famous Canadian mathematicians
not saying we don't have any we do, but when you think of mathematicians Canada doesn't come to mind.

Actually Canada has produced many exceptional mathematicians in history. They just don't work for PGI

[Jez]

Absolutely stupid to insist on 9.14 m/s instead of a nice rounded number like 30 ft/s.

How quickly can you mentally calculate 25%, 33%, 50%, 66%, 75% of 9.14 m/s and then recognize it for what it is when it is displayed on the HUD. That decimal and the 2 digits after it makes it considerably longer to comprehend the information you need in what should be an "at-a-glance" indicator. Who cares if it meters/sec or feet/sec. So long as it is a nice rounded number with enough fidelity between 0 and X then I'm fine if they used something like 30 whale shlongs/sec.

[Pjwned]

Madw0lf, on 07 July 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

Then you can just call it 9m/s, or use dm/s or cm/s. ft/s isnt any "more precise" than saying 9.144m/s. Sure thats more cumbersome, but I believe I addressed that. the whole point of this is, some people want to see it displayed in a matter which is consistent WITH THE REST OF THE GAMES MEASUREMENTS. If the actual unit really doesnt matter, then what, exactly, is your problem?

You admit that it's more cumbersome to read it that way and then ask why I don't want it to be changed for some arbitrary reason, I don't see how that makes any sense. Sure, you can just have it changed "because I feel like it" but when you say "oh but you need to change it be practically as annoying as possible too" then I have an issue with it because it affects me too and I DO NOT want to see things changed around just because somebody throws a hissy fit over nothing while explaining "bb-b-but the inconvenience is not so bad" and completely missing the point.

For the record, ANY unit of measurement is not as precise if you need to express it in decimals compared to another unit of measurement where that isn't needed, so saying "meters are as precise because you can express this important value with decimal points" is just plain wrong.


pre·cise
adjective \pri-ˈsīs\

: very accurate and exact
—used to refer to an exact and particular time, location, etc.
: very careful and exact about the details of something


Full Definition of PRECISE


1
: exactly or sharply defined or stated

2
: minutely exact

3
: strictly conforming to a pattern, standard, or convention
4
: distinguished from every other <at just that precise moment>

I don't know about other people but I don't think that cramming in m/s for the vertical speed indicator fits the literal definition of "precise."

Edited by Pjwned, 07 July 2014 - 07:49 PM.

[Prezimonto]

Pjwned, on 07 July 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

There's no practical reason to change it because it doesn't matter how good or bad the system is in other uses, since being used in a video game makes that irrelevant. If you want to change what doesn't need to be changed for some arbitrary reason though, then go ahead as long as the resulting measurement is precise enough, but it would be nice if you had an actual reason instead of "BLUH BLUH THE IMPERIAL SYSTEM IS BAD" even though it fits the purpose here just fine.

The rest of the game is in metric.

It's a detail that breaks from the setting, as I can not believe that any space faring species would continue to use as arbitrary a system as the Imperial for thousands of years.

Feet/second isn't even a unit a measure that Americans are used to thinking in, we don't have a good idea how fast that is intuitively any better than meters per second. If it was in miles per hour, I'd agree with you, if the conversion rate was closer to 1.0, I'd agree with you.

There's reasons based on consistency, setting, and usability. Feet per second is bad, metric is the obvious choice, meters per second (9.1 m/s) or kilometers per hour(32.9 kph) would best of the available conversions.

Edited by Prezimonto, 07 July 2014 - 08:06 PM.

[Pjwned]

Madw0lf, on 07 July 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

If the actual unit really doesnt matter, then what, exactly, is your problem?

I'm going to expand on this claim further.

First, if it wasn't clear, I was at least trying to say (and believe that I conveyed it pretty well) that once the unit of measurement is precise enough, THEN it doesn't matter what it is. Right away we can see that m/s is not a precise enough measurement because it would need to be displayed in decimal values to be equivalent to a whole number measurement like 30 ft/s, and that just isn't good enough unless you like dealing with pointless annoyances for no reason, which I don't.

Second, once you satisfy the requirement of being precise, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT IT'S CALLED because its only application is in the game and only to 1 unique system within the game that has no other interaction anywhere else. So long as it's a precise unit of measurement (and ft/s has the added value of being somewhat realistic) the game could display the value as 30 ass hairs per second, 30 banana peels per second, 30 fedora tips per second, "30 whale shlongs/sec" and so on and it would mean the exact same thing simply because that's what the game is telling you what it is; there is NO BEARING on what any other unit of measurement means outside of the game because the game is its own world and serves no practical purpose except to kill some time and (hopefully) have some fun, maybe while throwing some money away on overpriced content like clan mechs. So, keeping this in mind, you can see that 30 feet per second makes as much sense as ANY other (precise) value, and as long as it's precise enough (which in the case of ft/s, it is) then it's perfectly valuable.

Third, when you insist that it doesn't matter what value it is as a reason to change it, then I insist that it doesn't need to be changed for some arbitrary reason and especially when the suggested value doesn't even satisfy the requirement of being precise.

Prezimonto, on 07 July 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

The rest of the game is in metric.

It's a detail that breaks from the setting, as I can not believe that any space faring species would continue to use as arbitrary a system as the Imperial for thousands of years.

I can't tell if you're just intentionally grasping for straws or if you think that's actually something worth arguing, but either way it could just as easily be explained that "they felt like it" or that in PGI's interpretation of the game they use ft/s as a vertical speed indicator and other sources were a "transcription error" or something. Hell, maybe all those mech pilots thought the exact same as me and figured "well this unit of measurement isn't precise enough but this other one is just right so we're going to use it instead" and that would be the end of it, no bitchfit whining or assumptions would change it because that's just how it is in a fictional world.

Quote

Feet/second isn't even a unit a measure that Americans are used to thinking in, we don't have a good idea how fast that is intuitively any better than meters per second. If it was in miles per hour, I'd agree with you, if the conversion rate was closer to 1.0, I'd agree with you.

There's reasons based on consistency, setting, and usability. Feet per second is bad, metric is the obvious choice, meters per second (9.1 m/s) or kilometers per hour(32.9 kph) would best of the available conversions.

I don't know how many times I have to say that you don't need a realistic speed indicator in a video game, are you the kind of person that throws a fit because the Source engine uses hammers as a unit of distance?

Edited by Pjwned, 07 July 2014 - 09:51 PM.

[stjobe]

Signal27, on 07 July 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

Let's see...

First ones to get one there was the Soviets - in 1959, score one for Metric.
Then you put one there - ten years late, but fair enough; one all.
Then, IIRC Japan, India, and the EU have all put flags there, so that's a resounding 4-1 to the Metric system.

You really should have gone with "astronauts" instead of "flags" - but I guess it's also a bit telling that you didn't...

Edit: As for the topic, meh. The meter should be in metres per second since everything else is in metric, but a bigger problem is that it's inaccurate as hell and lags a second or so behind what's happening, making it mostly useful to see what your speed WAS when you took that damage...

Edited by stjobe, 07 July 2014 - 10:51 PM.

[Adridos]

Praetor Knight, on 07 July 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

It's a problem from how Cryengine displays the values.

The devs are working on that.

Edit: Here we go, found it: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3527082

CryEngine definitely runs in metric.

What they're looking at is most likely their own re-implementation of something looking differently than it should.

[Edustaja]

I've given this some thought and now I'm actually starting to think that ft/s might be the better unit.
Just because of the readability.

If you use whole numbers without decimals, then it's easier to discern between velocities. Eg. when the usable scale of velocities goes to 0 to 60 ft/s instead of 0 to 20 m/s. You have thrice the readable denominations for ft/s than for m/s.

Precision or engine limitations are a non issue as it's just a single 0.3048 multiplier between the two units.

[Madw0lf]

Pjwned, on 07 July 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

For the record, ANY unit of measurement is not as precise if you need to express it in decimals compared to another unit of measurement where that isn't needed,"precise."

Minor side question, the indicator shows your actual airspeed to what precision? nearest whole number? ie 26.5 ft/s is shown as 27?

By that very definition, there are going to be just as many vertical velocities where m/s is more precise than ft/s.

If the system already rounds to the nearest whole number, for m/s you round to one decimal place. 30 ft/s is read as 9.1 m/s. 60 ft/s is read as 18.2 m/s. Just as simple to keep track of as 0-60 ft/s. AND, it keeps with the rest of the units in the game

[Prezimonto]

Pjwned, on 07 July 2014 - 08:51 PM, said:

I can't tell if you're just intentionally grasping for straws or if you think that's actually something worth arguing, but either way it could just as easily be explained that "they felt like it" or that in PGI's interpretation of the game they use ft/s as a vertical speed indicator and other sources were a "transcription error" or something. Hell, maybe all those mech pilots thought the exact same as me and figured "well this unit of measurement isn't precise enough but this other one is just right so we're going to use it instead" and that would be the end of it, no bitchfit whining or assumptions would change it because that's just how it is in a fictional world.

I don't know how many times I have to say that you don't need a realistic speed indicator in a video game, are you the kind of person that throws a fit because the Source engine uses hammers as a unit of distance?

And I don't know why you insist that it's okay to be inconsistent or sloppy for any reason on a professional level. And that's what this is. Also, they've stated they're fixing (see link above) as it wasn't a design choice they made, but rather a momentary constraint from the game engine. That also tells me the developers have the same opinion I do. So why are you fighting this?

Also, I'm okay with completely fake units if there's a setting based reason to use them, or if there wasn't a unit of measure for what you're trying to measure. But if it's merely inconvenient to put up the standardized unit of measure for the majority of the world, you do it anyway because in the long run your product will be stronger for it. It doesn't matter if you're making an orbiter, bridge, cake, or video game. Unless you have a GREAT reason to NOT use standard measure you do. And the only GREAT reasons to not use standard measurements that I can think of are:
1) You're a developer based in the USA, selling to primarily Americans, and your whole product is in the Imperial system.
2) You're dealing with measuring something that isn't already defined in SI units.
3) You're dealing in a fantastic setting that has it's own unit system and wish for immersion.

None of these hold true for this game.

Edited by Prezimonto, 08 July 2014 - 04:24 AM.

[Radbane]

Signal27, on 07 July 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

http://www.nasa.gov/...ndards/isu.html

[Rushin Roulette]

Signal27, on 07 July 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

It says "Made in Taiwan" on the bottom left.

[Prezimonto]

Edustaja, on 07 July 2014 - 11:35 PM, said:

I've given this some thought and now I'm actually starting to think that ft/s might be the better unit.
Just because of the readability.

If you use whole numbers without decimals, then it's easier to discern between velocities. Eg. when the usable scale of velocities goes to 0 to 60 ft/s instead of 0 to 20 m/s. You have thrice the readable denominations for ft/s than for m/s.

Precision or engine limitations are a non issue as it's just a single 0.3048 multiplier between the two units.

Madw0lf, on 08 July 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:

Minor side question, the indicator shows your actual airspeed to what precision? nearest whole number? ie 26.5 ft/s is shown as 27?

By that very definition, there are going to be just as many vertical velocities where m/s is more precise than ft/s.

If the system already rounds to the nearest whole number, for m/s you round to one decimal place. 30 ft/s is read as 9.1 m/s. 60 ft/s is read as 18.2 m/s. Just as simple to keep track of as 0-60 ft/s. AND, it keeps with the rest of the units in the game

The conversion between feet per second and kilometers per hour is 1 fps to 1.09728 kph. It's very close. So again, if you want that order of magnitude there's essentially no reason to NOT use the metric system like the rest of the game. However, I had to actually figure the conversion because no one thinks in feet per second that I know, but outside of the USA nearly everyone has a handle on KPH.

Edited by Prezimonto, 08 July 2014 - 04:33 AM.

[Torgun]

The funny thing is some of you think 30ft/s is something written in stone and somehow a perfectly calculated number for fall damage, when in reality it's preliminary values that already needs some changes being made for lights probably in the next patch. Mixing different measuring systems is always a bad idea.

[Pjwned]

Prezimonto, on 08 July 2014 - 04:23 AM, said:

And I don't know why you insist that it's okay to be inconsistent or sloppy for any reason on a professional level. And that's what this is. Also, they've stated they're fixing (see link above) as it wasn't a design choice they made, but rather a momentary constraint from the game engine. That also tells me the developers have the same opinion I do. So why are you fighting this?

It's not sloppy to use a unit of measurement that is a better fit for the purpose than something else, and apparently whoever made the engine felt similarly that a metric unit wasn't a good enough value to use.

I'm fighting it because I think it's a worthless change for no good reason and I don't want a system where it needs to display decimal values to be accurate enough.

[Edustaja]

Prezimonto, on 08 July 2014 - 04:32 AM, said:

The conversion between feet per second and kilometers per hour is 1 fps to 1.09728 kph. It's very close. So again, if you want that order of magnitude there's essentially no reason to NOT use the metric system like the rest of the game. However, I had to actually figure the conversion because no one thinks in feet per second that I know, but outside of the USA nearly everyone has a handle on KPH.

KPH would be workable

Edited by Edustaja, 08 July 2014 - 05:16 AM.

[Madw0lf]

Pjwned, on 08 July 2014 - 05:02 AM, said:

It's not sloppy to use a unit of measurement that is a better fit for the purpose than something else, and apparently whoever made the engine felt similarly that a metric unit wasn't a good enough value to use.

I'm fighting it because I think it's a worthless change for no good reason and I don't want a system where it needs to display decimal values to be accurate enough.

The thing is, its ONLY a better fit at certain intervals, m/s is better in others. And the sloppiness is referring to having different units for different measurements, which is ludicrous whether in game or not.

I like what Preiz said, make it in kph like the throttle indicator. Round to the nearest whole (like is probably being done anyway) and voila!

Edited by Madw0lf, 08 July 2014 - 05:21 AM.

[Pjwned]

Prezimonto, on 08 July 2014 - 04:32 AM, said:

The conversion between feet per second and kilometers per hour is 1 fps to 1.09728 kph. It's very close. So again, if you want that order of magnitude there's essentially no reason to NOT use the metric system like the rest of the game. However, I had to actually figure the conversion because no one thinks in feet per second that I know, but outside of the USA nearly everyone has a handle on KPH.

*shrug*

I'm not going to pretend that KPH isn't suitable because it fits the sole requirement just as well as ft/s does really and it matches how your mech's walking speed is displayed without presenting weird scaling issues. I still don't see any need to change it because of what I've already said though, namely that realistic speed indicators are a non-issue and that nobody needs a handle on how fast it is in a real world situation because it has no practical applications anywhere else and it's just a game.

Madw0lf, on 08 July 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

The thing is, its ONLY a better fit at certain intervals, m/s is better in others. And the sloppiness is referring to having different units for different measurements, which is ludicrous whether in game or not.

You mean it's better in certain intervals like measuring vertical speed, and yeah having different units for DIFFERENT measurements actually does make sense.

[Madw0lf]

Pjwned, on 08 July 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

*shrug*

I'm not going to pretend that KPH isn't suitable because it fits the sole requirement just as well as ft/s does really and it matches how your mech's walking speed is displayed without presenting weird scaling issues. I still don't see any need to change it because of what I've already said though, namely that realistic speed indicators are a non-issue and that nobody needs a handle on how fast it is in a real world situation because it has no practical applications anywhere else and it's just a game.



You mean it's better in certain intervals like measuring vertical speed, and yeah having different units for DIFFERENT measurements actually does make sense.

OK so you don't see any news to change it. That's fine.

Let me clarify that statement for you. There will be, during a Mechs fall, times when it hits exact m/s values, where ft/s are decimal values. Which is more precise then?

And let me rephrase the last, its ludicrous to use different unit systems in the same game. You'd never have a floor plan for a building in metric, then have its height in imperial, just because "its more precise", you'd be laughed out

[Phromethius]

All of you are thinking WAAAAY too much about this. As a designer I can only sit back and laugh but feel slightly disappointed at a very simple solution that was missed in this dilema. SYMBOLS instead of units of measure.

Vertical fall is only used in calculating leg damage. It has no bearing on anythign else in the game. SO, those saying it doesn't matter if it is whale schlongs per sec or meters per sec are correct. They should have just used a downward series of arrows in a color scale to indicate speed. example: (PRETEND THIS IS POINTING DOWNWARD POSSIBLY EVEN ANIMATED)

going this fast >>>> no fall damage

going this fast >>>>>>>> you're gonna break your legs

So if you have too many "arrows" then apply your jump jets feathered or generously till they decrease into the desired speed.

At work so I can't conjure up a photoshop version but I think it's simple enough to understand.