510 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

Just remember that the system is tweakable. If jump jet power is too low now - I'm gonna go climb into my Highlander and test - then the precise values can be easily changed.

[Cimarb]

SethAbercromby, on 15 July 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

Yes, I was wrting the part with the classes without fact-checking, however, there are 5 Jump Jet classes for 5 different weight groups. See here for a list. And apparently you don't like reading either because I went ahead and assumed that the jets don't fire at full power for the slightly lighter 'Mechs they are compatible with to compensate for a slighty smaller fuel tank that fits better into the smaller structure. I think what you're really on is "why would you use the same type if it's toned down instead of one that is perfect?". The anser is simply money. If you had the option to sell 5 different Jump Jet classes that will cover all 'Mech up to 100 tons, or rather sell 17 different classes for each individual weight rating just so they all perform at full power in use? I wouldn't because that's a waste of money and rescources.

I read your post just fine.

First, there are FOUR weight classes of battlemechs: light, medium, heavy and assault. That has not changed in over two decades. That does not align at all with the classes of jump jets that you linked to, which have ALSO not changed in over two decades. 4=/=5, last I checked.

Second, a jump jet that takes up X tonnage and Y critical space does not have a "slightly smaller fuel tank", or else it would have "slightly less weight/space" - that is the definition of "smaller"...

Lastly, regardless of those first two points, what is the rationality behind having smaller mechs perform worse with the same tonnage/crit cost?... there is no logical or rational reason to do that.

[Void Angel]

Not quite true. There may very well be a logical and rational reason - after all, psychotics are the most reasonable people you will ever find. It's just that their postulates and logical rules don't correspond well to the real world.

[Void Angel]

Preliminary results with the Highlander - it works really well as a PPC-based alternative to my Atlas. Jump jets? Not so much. But then, Highlanders were already crippled as poptarts before the jump jet rework, so it's hard to say. In any case, my Highlander feels like it's being hoist by a crane, not propelled heavenward on thundering jets of flame.

My Recommendation: more thrust is needed for Type I Hill Climb Modules Jump Jets, even if it's balanced by more heat.

[Zolaz]

The JJ changes make me wonder if it was put through Quality Control before it was rolled out. Im not seeing any heat from JJs and now I cant use JJs to scale terrain.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Praehotec8, on 08 July 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

I am a bit concerned because, right now I always carry all or near-max JJs on my jump-capable mechs, and they don't feel all that agile. The lift is barely adequate on mechs carrying only two (in my opinion) right now, and soon it will be worse? I simply don't see what benefit this will have for the game. What will it improve, other than the perception (and not one shared by all), that mechs are too agile?

How will this affect mechs like the Jester, that are great striker mechs which use those JJs to get in and out quickly? Carrying only two max jets seems like after the nerf it might just be worth the tonnage to take them off.

I would rather see JJs work to provide a fast, powerful thrust along a vector that can to some degree be chosen by the player. I watched a video one time of MW:LL (never played it), but the JJs in that game looked fun to use.

We will have to see how this turns out, but it seems like it takes some of the fun out of having JJs on mechs without adding anything significant to the game.

Yep, what you feared was exactly what happened.

Just like you I always used max or near max JJs and kinda made a specialty role out of being a Striker where I would use the extra vertical lift and acceleration to jump over buildings, fire a burst or two, then jump back out of the line of fire. None of what I did was Meta but I found it fun and exciting despite feeling like Jump Jets were a bit lackluster.

Now with the change, that whole style of play is now gone and we see play style tactics getting dumbed down yet again to the point there is one and only one style of play. Honestly if this is the way JJs are going to work, if your running a medium or heavier mech, you might as well just remove the JJs and add in heavier weapons or more heat sinks because you will get more advantage from that than having JJ mobility (or should I say lack of mobility).

[Void Angel]

I just did a preliminary pass of unscientific testing to generate first impressions. I used my Spider 5D, with only four jets, my Cataphract 3D, and my Highlander 733C - both with max jump jets installed. I don't have a really jump-centric medium build right now, so I forwent that weight class in my testing. My conclusion: it's a mixed bag.

Lights feel almost unchanged. Even with just four jets, I was able to jet around the battlefield with no trouble getting over/onto things, or avoiding leg damage. My piloting style for lights is rather low to the ground, however - if you are used to long burns for volunteering as a ***** target high-altitude jumps, your mileage may vary.

The Cataphract, on the other hand, is a noticeable change. It takes a lot of constant thrusting to get any altitude, so unless I'm using the jets to peek over a hilltop, I'd have to burn most or all of my reaction mass to reach firing height in many instances. In fact, I didn't even notice the effect of jump jet heat on my poptarting efficiency, because I spent so much time waiting for my reaction mass to recharge that it was hard to notice. Reaching the top of a mere three-story building on Crimson Strait can require perfect timing and positioning. Don't get me wrong, I could still use the jets to fire over cover, but my overall mobility - the ability to get over and on top of things - is significantly reduced.

As for the Highlander, I'm afraid I'm going to have to descend into what I hope is gentle sarcasm. It was my distinct pleasure to test the new Type 1 Mountain Mobility Interactive Equipment (T1MMIE, for short) that was apparently placed in the live environment rather than the test server - however, it is difficult to evaluate the system with jump jets disabled. Seriously, though; the Highlander already felt like it was being hoisted by a crane; its jump jets are now almost useless for anything but climbing steep grades. May the Blessed Blake help you if you want to jump onto something, because that's just not the sort of thing that happens to you, fatty. Aww, don't cry now, chubby bunny - have some more chocolate!

Overall, The heavier chassis feel like they need their numbers tweaked, or their mechanics altered. Personally, I'd like to see a lot more speed out of jump jets, up and down, with slower recharge and more heat being the primary balance mechanism - but regardless, the loss of mobility is a crippling drawback for the heavier weight classes, and I would strongly recommend focusing more on balance through heat generation for the heavier jets.

Edited by Void Angel, 15 July 2014 - 05:54 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I tested out the Dragon Slayer with 2 and 4 Jump Jets, the Timber Wolf with 2 and 3 Jump Jets, and the Highlander with 4 and 5 Jump Jets.

I gotta say, the changes to the Highlander are terrible. That mech needs its Jump Jets buffed a bit since this patch, especially since only 2 Variants can mount more then 3. I would imagine 3 Jump Jets is utterly worthless after driving the 4 JJ 733C. I will be VERY disappointed if this isn't tweaked..

The DS and TW though, I think was a job well done, they can still jump effectively with 3-4 Jump jets, but 2 is pushing it and I didn't even try 1.

[pwnface]

I think the jump jet thrust and lift changes are a little harsh, I think adding more heat would be a better way to balance pop-tart dps. The Victor feels absolutely fine, timberwolf is useable but not as OP as it was before, the Highlander however is just terrible.

[Sandslice]

Ok, just did a quick test, using my Griffin 1N. Relevant data:

Class: Medium (55 tons)
Full basic (no elite, haven't basic'd the other Griffins yet)
300 XLE (for ~88kph movement)
7/7 jump jets (listed jump range: 40.2)

On Canyon, jumping from the bottom level to the mesas (not the one-level step around the river, straight floor to top jumping.)

Previous performance: Easily cleared right as Betty announces Fuel 25%.
Current performance: ~5 meters short with full thrust. This is just enough to land on the invisible sub-levels just off the sides of the mesa.

Revision: After further testing (7/16 at 19:24 -8,) I've found that there are parts of Canyon where the jump can be made; but more often than not, the jump requires full jump power to achieve.

Oddly enough, the trial Spider (which is under-jetted) has the same jumping power as my Griffin.

Edited by Sandslice, 16 July 2014 - 06:29 PM.

[Tremendous Upside]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 July 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

I tested out the Dragon Slayer with 2 and 4 Jump Jets, the Timber Wolf with 2 and 3 Jump Jets, and the Highlander with 4 and 5 Jump Jets.

I gotta say, the changes to the Highlander are terrible. That mech needs its Jump Jets buffed a bit since this patch, especially since only 2 Variants can mount more then 3. I would imagine 3 Jump Jets is utterly worthless after driving the 4 JJ 733C. I will be VERY disappointed if this isn't tweaked..

The DS and TW though, I think was a job well done, they can still jump effectively with 3-4 Jump jets, but 2 is pushing it and I didn't even try 1.

Wow... I thought that maybe folks were exaggerating a little - but the HGN is just horrible now where the jets are concerned. Not to mention mechs like Jester that can only carry 2 JJs max? It's a huge nerf for that mech, and there's nothing at all you can do about it.

[zudukai]

the jester got nerfed hard! YOU KILLED THE JESTER! please consider specific mechs for JJ buffs!!! poor jester!

Edited by zudukai, 15 July 2014 - 10:55 PM.

[Void Angel]

Banky, on 15 July 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

Wow... I thought that maybe folks were exaggerating a little - but the HGN is just horrible now where the jets are concerned. Not to mention mechs like Jester that can only carry 2 JJs max? It's a huge nerf for that mech, and there's nothing at all you can do about it.

Ironically, I found that the Highlander actually seemed to suffer the least out of my (admittedly limited) test options - because the last nerf to its jumping ability already had it feeling like it was lifted by a crane. The changes were even less notable for me because I was already fighting my Highlanders mostly from the ground. =)

The Highlander has been one of my most-hated 'Mechs; not to play, but to have on my team, because it is practically designed for cowards, and its pilots would often spend so much time hiding that the match was decided before their armor even went amber. But the the state of the chassis' jump capacity right now is quite dismal - and I'm sure we'll see buffs to it soon. If rumor is correct, next patch is possible.

PS: No one at PGI hates [Insert Chassis,] not even the Highlander. Overperforming chassis, weapons, and mechanics are always going to get tuned. Try to analyze the changes so you can understand why they were made, and agree or disagree intelligently - rather than sounding like the Mage forums in World of Warcraft.

Edited by Void Angel, 15 July 2014 - 10:32 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Void Angel, on 15 July 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

The Highlander has been one of my most-hated 'Mechs; not to play, but to have on my team, because it is practically designed for cowards

[pwnface]

Void Angel, on 15 July 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

The Highlander has been one of my most-hated 'Mechs; not to play, but to have on my team, because it is practically designed for cowards, and its pilots would often spend so much time hiding that the match was decided before their armor even went amber.

As a sniper, your role is to deal damage without absorbing it. Just because you like to eat bullets doesn't mean everyone else should. Of course sometimes it is useful to push the enemy and overwhelm them which means you should make yourself a target, but typically it is much smarter to win exchanges by taking the least amount of damage. "Hiding" while dealing consistent damage, is how you win matches.

[Myrkky]

Hey guys,

Just thinking you forgot something....
Nerf king of poptarts, Dragon Slayer.

I know that killing dragons without ability to fly is hard but...

Why in hell Assault Mech jumps better than LIGHT MECH!?!


Thanks for Siriothrax who figured that out.

http://imgur.com/a/IYSX0

Oh well... hot fix, just maybe?

Best regards
Myrkky

Edited by Myrkky, 16 July 2014 - 02:38 AM.

[P e n u m b r a]

The JJ pop tarts is actually what gave the IS mechs a fighting chance vs the clan mechs allowing them to avoid clan damage over time weapons using limited exposure and burst damage tactics now its nerfed good job on indirectly buffing clan mechs even more and making the IS mechs pretty much obsolete.

Edited by L e 0, 16 July 2014 - 03:10 AM.

[Void Angel]

My Highlanders had the best games of my testing matches, anecdotal as that may be, and I've maintained a positive kdr with my obsolete Inner Sphere 'mechs - a good thing, since I couldn't afford the Clan packs. Of course this is anecdotal evidence - but it is evidence that belies your conclusion.

pwnface, on 16 July 2014 - 01:49 AM, said:

As a sniper, your role is to deal damage without absorbing it. Just because you like to eat bullets doesn't mean everyone else should. Of course sometimes it is useful to push the enemy and overwhelm them which means you should make yourself a target, but typically it is much smarter to win exchanges by taking the least amount of damage. "Hiding" while dealing consistent damage, is how you win matches.

/sigh. Just as you assuming I'm an idiot happily doesn't mean that I am. I'm well aware of the principles behind jump sniping; I use them well myself - my issue is that many Highlander pilots become so focused on the bit about taking the least amount of damage that they fail to deal damage themselves. They become risk-averse, to the extent that you're tempted to ask them to pretend they're piloting a 90-ton war machine with 558 max armor capacity. The top players whose builds are being emulated by the metagame don't play like that - they are smart, aggressive players who will often run their 'Mechs right over the top of you if they smell blood.

Conversely, many Highlander pilots would assume that sitting back and shooting without taking damage was all there was to using their Assault correctly. This led them to prioritize damage avoidance so much that they wouldn't help the team when the close combat phase arrived, often being among the last to fall, after the main combat. When they did this, their evaluation of their own performance became subject to bias confirmation. Because they just got a lot of kills and damage from finishing off wounded 'Mechs, they generally assumed that the failure was on the part of "the PuGs," because their match score ended up individually high - despite not being there for the team when it mattered.

Of course, not all Hide Highlander pilots played like that, but it was enough to make me nervous every time I saw them on the team.

Edited by Void Angel, 16 July 2014 - 05:59 AM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

I have to echo what Void Angel is saying ... and it's not just HGN drivers, but a significant portion of "long range" assault pilots.

Every "long range" pilot needs to realize that if his team is pushing forward, he needs to also, especially if he's an assault.

"Long range" 'mechs do the exact same amount of damage at 200m as they do at 500m (or more).

[Cimarb]

Void Angel, on 15 July 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

Ironically, I found that the Highlander actually seemed to suffer the least out of my (admittedly limited) test options - because the last nerf to its jumping ability already had it feeling like it was lifted by a crane. The changes were even less notable for me because I was already fighting my Highlanders mostly from the ground. =)

PS: No one at PGI hates [Insert Chassis,] not even the Highlander. Overperforming chassis, weapons, and mechanics are always going to get tuned. Try to analyze the changes so you can understand why they were made, and agree or disagree intelligently - rather than sounding like the Mage forums in World of Warcraft.

The Highlander was DESIGNED to make Death From Above attacks. It should be the pinnacle of jump jet assaults, able to AT LEAST jump higher than any other mech's height, just to be able to complete its designed function! Instead, it has been a slightly more maneuverable Atlas/Banshee for a long time now. It is quite sad.

While I support PGI trying to balance jump sniping with other playstyles, the Highlander always seems to get the short end of the stick on these changes, even after it had already been nerfed into obsolescence and made I to a second-line chassis by the very existence of the Victor, which has escaped nearly every one of these attempted nerfs.

I think they should make the Highlander able to jump at least it's own height, but make it take twice as long to do so. In other words, instead of taking two seconds to reach 10m in vertical height, make it take 4 seconds to reach 20m in vertical height. That way, you can eclipse the sun for a good second or two before finally falling down upon your enemies soon-to-be-smashed face...

While you do that, make the Victor's jump jets work in a more horizontal manner, propelling them forward more than up. That will prevent it from jump sniping, but give it the mobility it is supposed to have. Maybe only 6m in vertical height at max, but propel it forward 20m without slowing.