510 replies to this topic

[XphR]

MWO beats up all of the Kitties.. Poor Jester was bound to get chewed on.

[Cimarb]

Cimarb, on 17 July 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

Actually, it should be pretty much the opposite, in a way. Jump jets, at least in an atmosphere, "superheat air" with "an electron beam...inside a magnetically shielded reaction chamber...and expels the expanding gases through nozzles". The only time an alternate fuel is needed is in a vacuum, which may be the case in HPG Manifold. Otherwise, the amount of fuel is effectively unlimited and JJs are supposed to be limited by heat production.

In other words, every mech has unlimited fuel (air), but the jets should increase heat enough for it to be a limiter in itself. The number of jets then determines HOW QUICKLY the mech can produce thrust, effectively speeding up the jump, which indirectly increases the amount of distance covered. A mech with one jet should creep, while a mech with 12 jets should absolutely rocket into the air. The amount of height/distance covered would be the same for both, but while it would take five seconds to cover 30m with 1 JJ, that same mech could cover 360m in that same time with 12 JJs. Numbers for illustration purposes only, of course.

I just realized I forgot to go into detail about the heat from this.

Heat generated should be like a flamer. The longer you hold the jets open, the more heat is generated. This helps balance mechs with less jump jets as well, since they have to hold their jets longer to reach the same height/distance.

So, a mech with a single jump jet that holds them "open" for five seconds can reach the same height/distance, but at the cost of time and heat, compared to a mech with more jump jets.

Fuel can then be removed, or at least increased to the point that most situations will never be limited by it, because heat and time are the real limiters.

For example, a Victor with a single jump jet engages it and starts rising, very slowly, into the air. It can reach the same 23.9m height as previously, or even higher, but it takes about 8 seconds to get to that height and its heat is already starting to climb rapidly by that point. If the Victor has its full 4 jump jets, though, it can reach that same height in 2 seconds (four times faster) and has accumulated much less heat during that time because of that.

On top of all that, each mech should be adjusted to give a certain amount of thrust based upon the maximum number of jump jets available for that chassis-family. So a Catapult, which can have up to 4 jump jets, should have all variants use that as the baseline. For every JJ less than 4, they lose a quarter of their thrust. That means a Jester, with 2/2, would have half of the thrust of a C4 with 4/4.

[Ace Selin]

JJ mechanis appear to be working great .. good job on this one PGI.

[pwnface]

I don't think there is enough QQ about this subject on the forums yet for PGI to actually tune or change anything.

[Gas Guzzler]

pwnface, on 21 July 2014 - 02:17 AM, said:

I don't think there is enough QQ about this subject on the forums yet for PGI to actually tune or change anything.

Oh, there will be.

[Ridersofdoom]

Quote

The combination of Fall Damage, Jump Jet Heat, Jump Jet Thrust changes culminate into a change in gameplay dynamics in keeping 'Mechs feeling heavy and more tank-like

Reading this is like watching someone from the middle ages talking about the future, the dark era of knowledge arrive, if they want to feel like a tank, first make a correct scale environments and trees, second do not let the tank get stuck on a pebble, third ask a tank pilot what he feel in a heavy 2014 real and modern tank.

[JayVrb]

I disagree with the changes to JJ. I like the cooldown stoppage, keep that. But now brawlers and other mechs that used JJ's for maneuverability and not for sniping are at a disadvantage. You said this wasn't to address the poptart meta... well you're darn right; it inadvertently addresses every other play-style.

If my Summoner is going to have hardwired jump jets that I can't do anything about, it better damn well be worth the tonnage and crit space. 'Nuff said.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

ACTUALLY IT WAS WORS UPDATE AFTER GAUSS RIFLE NERF.

Simply cause there is JJ class wich affects thrust and tonnage lifted up in the air.

Edited by Hagoromo Gitsune, 22 July 2014 - 04:16 PM.

[Edward Mattlov]

If it hasn't been asked before, are there any plans on adjusting the Jump Jet physics based on the gravity value indicated on the map, or is that gravity value just for decoration? Also, please, for Kerensky's sake, change the altimeter to meters/second to match the rest of the HUD!

[Bors Mistral]

I like the heat changes, but now in most cases JJ feel even more like Float-Jets and Fall-Softening-Jets.

Simply put, I'd love a faster altitude gain per jet.

Also, no matter the amount of jets, the burn time at the moment stays the same. Can't we have a burn time of (for example) 3sec for a single jet, and an extra second or half for every jet over?

I'm sure a lot of us would like to feel more of a difference based on the amount of JJ, a good deal more.

[Cimarb]

Bors Mistral, on 24 July 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

I like the heat changes, but now in most cases JJ feel even more like Float-Jets and Fall-Softening-Jets.

Simply put, I'd love a faster altitude gain per jet.

Also, no matter the amount of jets, the burn time at the moment stays the same. Can't we have a burn time of (for example) 3sec for a single jet, and an extra second or half for every jet over?

I'm sure a lot of us would like to feel more of a difference based on the amount of JJ, a good deal more.

I agree, but instead of more fuel, I think it should have the same fuel, but quicker thrust. In other words, one jet uses the same amount of fuel as four, but four jets get you four times the jump distance during that fuel burn.

[Malleus011]

I'd just like to actually be able to leap canon distances with my jets. My Victor with four JJ's can't quite make it to the top of the canyon from the floor.

If they have to lock JJ's have have a minimum amount, that's fine, just ... make them not suck.

[Summon3r]

JJ nerf massively over the top, especially for mechs that rely on them for mobility. should not feel like we are in hot air balloons. the poor Summoner which i love (no complaints about fitting restrictions) did not need to be castrated.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

there probably should be an increase in acceleration for every extra jet equipped. One should be nothing more than a fall break on an assault. But 7 on a medium should be something more like HANG ON TO YOUR HATS BOYS!

The poor jester. Boy did it get the short end of the stick on this one.

[Cimarb]

Bartholomew bartholomew, on 27 July 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

there probably should be an increase in acceleration for every extra jet equipped. One should be nothing more than a fall break on an assault. But 7 on a medium should be something more like HANG ON TO YOUR HATS BOYS!

The poor jester. Boy did it get the short end of the stick on this one.

I agree about the more jets giving more accel, but it should all be based upon the maximum # of jets for that chassis. For example, regarding the Jester, it has half the number of jump jets (2) that the Catapult can equip (4), so it should have a possible maximum of half that of the variants that equip 4.

Think of it as a percentage. The Catapult chassis can equip 4 jump jets maximum. For every jump jet that is equipped, it gets 25% of the chassis' maximum acceleration. The Spider chassis can equip 12 jump jets maximum. For every jump jet that is equipped - up to the 6 or 8 maximum on other variants - it gets 8.3% of the chassis' maximum acceleration. This means that the 5K has half of the maximum acceleration of the 5V, which helps to balance the two variants.

[PhoenixFire55]

Bad update is bad. When an Atlas is having an easier time navigating over hills than a Highlander you know smth is broken. Plus, lights are still unbalanced. For assaults and heavies jumpjets are useless unless you have 3+, while lights are as good as they always been with just one. Now if you look into canon builds, assaults and heavies rarely have more than 2-3, while lights rarely have less then 6. This anti-poptart or anti-JJ or whatever campaign is fubar. Bring back the old mobility levels provided your mech is maxed out on jets and make a liner drop to current mobility levels with 1 jet. Raise recharge time by 4-5 times. This way you can still navigate the terrain properly without the ability to hop up and down sniping every 3 seconds.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 28 July 2014 - 03:24 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Hey - at least we have the JumpJets pre JumpJet Time from the Closed Beta back
+ thrust of a single JumpJet isn't as good as the thrust of 4
- reduced fuel

one step forward; two back

(so lets think what will happen when you want to run away from a cliff....one step forward....two back)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 28 July 2014 - 04:41 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

I'm thoroughly disgusted at how my Mediums perform now since the JJ change.

HGN/VTR Meta Assaults were the only real problem, and the only heavy that was an issue was the Cata-3d.

Mediums once again are hit hardest, they're too big to avoid much fire, and not quite fast enough to disrupt hitreg.

Mediums need all the maneuverability they can get.

You guys hit the nail on the head the first time with the Slow jets on the HGN, it could have easily translated to the Victor/ctf-3d and diminish their ability to snap up and poptart, while maintaining maneuverability to traverse the map like they used to.

Mechs like the Griffin/Blackjack/Trebuchet/Shadowhawk/Wolverine were perfect before the JJ nerf, but now they can't even get 1/2 of the height with Full jets that they used to.

What seems to be an even bigger problem, is the way the ground grabs you if you try to push up a slope, you literally get sucked into the ground and your jumps are even less.

I honestly think there needs to be no compromise here, Jets need to be reverted 100% pre nerf.

Why?
Because they were fine, they worked well, and they were fun as hell.

Since the nerf, JJ's are either completely pointless in some mechs (HGN), or have seriously reduced their value vs costs as they are in most mediums and even lights.

There are better ways of controlling the META poptarts that does not destroy the fun of the lighter mechs.

[DeathlyEyes]

Would just like to remind Paul that this change is bad. Just because something looks good in chart form doesn't mean it's going to work well implemented. It's obvious no one play tested the changes as max jump Jets definitely no longer feel right. I do agree low number of jump Jets should be affected. Perhaps ramping the utility of jump Jets exponentially will work better.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 30 July 2014 - 07:03 AM.

[XphR]

Jester is no longer laughing.. and HeavyMetal wont even plug up to his amp anymore... Thanks. Nothing like the anti maneuverability granted by fall jets.