510 replies to this topic

[XphR]

The only thing it ever dominated was people who refused to move or react to being shot at all.

[Cimarb]

Sjorpha, on 14 October 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

Why shouldn't jumpsniping and jumpbrawling be both possible and viable?

It's only an issue if it dominates the metagame, and now it doesn't anymore. The problem is already solved.

XphR, on 14 October 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

The only thing it ever dominated was people who refused to move or react to being shot at all.

Well, my unit ran up against a team that still very effectively used jump sniping (a pair of synchro-jumping Summoners, to be precise, leading the flank attack) just yesterday, and I can safely say that, used properly and with skill, jump sniping is very much alive and well. (Edit: and if you think the only people dominated by jump snipers were those that refused to move, you must not play against top teams much - and no, that is not a challenge to prove how uber your invisible Elo is...)

The difference is the amount of skill required to use it successfully, which has went up quite a bit since a few months ago. Just like the Gauss charge "nerf", eventually people will get used to the changes and you will see it more often, but I think, like the Gauss change, this is all a positive thing. Skill should be rewarded, and jump sniping is getting to that point now, where you need skill to use it. This keeps it out of the solo queue, for the most part, and only used (well) in the very top levels of group play.

What people here are wanting in the near future, though, is to have this level of balance in the jump sniping, while still being able to use their jump jets for more than just hopping a couple meters. For instance, the 12 JJ Spider should absolutely skyrocket when you hit the space bar. On HPG, it should be able to clear the radar dish on a single bound! They/we just want jump jets to be the tactical tool they were meant to be, without allowing them to be abused for weapons fire delivery like we have been dealing with the last year or so.

I think we are moving towards that quite well, so hopefully we keep the momentum and can find a happy medium (no pun intended).

Edited by Cimarb, 15 October 2014 - 06:37 AM.

[XphR]

"or react to being shot at all" You forgot that important bit, Its good that there are people capable of tandem jump sniping. High level players being able to use knowledge and skill to make more use of something is a good thing that should be preserved in game and not made an impossible action.


I am in no way a high elo player (nor does it bother me), Im just a MechPilot of old, I play Mechwarrior to enjoy playing Mechwarrior.. Never been a fan of seeing things removed from a game due to hyperbole (not quite sure how you missed that). Point being, sometimes people feel there is no other option than removal of something they do not understand how to evade, avoid or counter..

Edited by XphR, 15 October 2014 - 11:32 AM.

[Cimarb]

XphR, on 15 October 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

"or react to being shot at all" You forgot that important bit, Its good that there are people capable of tandem jump sniping. High level players being able to use knowledge and skill to make more use of something is a good thing that should be preserved in game and not made an impossible action.

I am in no way a high elo player (nor does it bother me), Im just a MechPilot of old, I play Mechwarrior to enjoy playing Mechwarrior.. Never been a fan of seeing things removed from a game due to hyperbole (not quite sure how you missed that). Point being, sometimes people feel there is no other option than removal of something they do not understand how to evade, avoid or counter..

Totally agree. <o

[Gattsus]

Exponential ish height/thrust for increased number of jumpjets!

[Nightshade24]

I think jump jets should be increased more on the heavier end of the spectrum, some mediums, majority of the heavies, and all the assaults should jump higher... (Highlander specifically...) Make the draw back being even more reload/ wait time to use it again and longer time to get up... it's sad to see assault jumpjet mechs =l you fit it out with 5 jumpjets and it what... jumps only 20 meters?

I do not want to bring up the lore jumpjets into the question but 1 single jumpjet (for any mech) would bring it up for 30... I would at least thing 5 jumpjets would be better in MW: O then 1 lore-correct jumpjet....

[Cimarb]

How jump jets should work is the weight of the mech should be negated first, and anything past that should give increasing thrust as well as height. They are getting closer on the thrust and height, but still need to take into account the initial weight of the mech.

For instance, if you have 5 jump jets on a 20 ton mech, and the same jump jets on a 40 ton mech, they should not jump the same height/speed. The first 20 tons of additional weight on the 40-toner should be cancelled out first, effectively making it perform as if it was a 20 ton mech with 4 jump jets.

[Ghogiel]

Cimarb, on 15 October 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

Well, my unit ran up against a team that still very effectively used jump sniping (a pair of synchro-jumping Summoners, to be precise, leading the flank attack) just yesterday, and I can safely say that, used properly and with skill, jump sniping is very much alive and well. (Edit: and if you think the only people dominated by jump snipers were those that refused to move, you must not play against top teams much - and no, that is not a challenge to prove how uber your invisible Elo is...)

The difference is the amount of skill required to use it successfully, which has went up quite a bit since a few months ago. Just like the Gauss charge "nerf", eventually people will get used to the changes and you will see it more often, but I think, like the Gauss change, this is all a positive thing. Skill should be rewarded, and jump sniping is getting to that point now, where you need skill to use it. This keeps it out of the solo queue, for the most part, and only used (well) in the very top levels of group play.

What people here are wanting in the near future, though, is to have this level of balance in the jump sniping, while still being able to use their jump jets for more than just hopping a couple meters. For instance, the 12 JJ Spider should absolutely skyrocket when you hit the space bar. On HPG, it should be able to clear the radar dish on a single bound! They/we just want jump jets to be the tactical tool they were meant to be, without allowing them to be abused for weapons fire delivery like we have been dealing with the last year or so.

I think we are moving towards that quite well, so hopefully we keep the momentum and can find a happy medium (no pun intended).

I am still using the SMN as a poptarter. It's basdically my solo queue ride though and I wouldn't recomend it in comp drop decks unless you count TBRs with 1 or 2 JJs as poptarters (I don't).

Everyone should do 1v1 summoner poptart builds more often because no one wants to do them even though poptarting is fun as hell :3

Also IIRC HPG is 1.1g. So it have more gravity than Earth does meaning you need more thrust to get higher.

[pyrocomp]

Maybe, there should not be anything "exponential" and that complex in JJs after all, just substract weight of the mech from the JJs thrust. Timber with 1 or 2 JJs will no be able to lift at all. But this will require to provide thrust value to JJs rather than class. Will the additional thrusters add to "fuel" capacity is another question.

[Sir Wolfenx]

An aside, I would like to see more map environments offer advantages to jump-jet mechs. Some maps have hardly any areas where jump jetting over would be very useful, besides going up a steep hill. The advantage jump jets offer vary greatly map by map. The level designers need to keep this in mind.

There are many maps where jumping is a deathtrap for some builds as there is no cover when reaching the heights and the player can get alpha targeted by an entire lance. For light mechs, I do not find much problem with cover, but alas, for mediums such as the Shadowhawk, it is a challenge.

Some of the advantages in the more jump jet friendly maps look like:

Cutting across steep inclines where other players have to find a ramp, the player can cut through the map middle easier. Closing with the enemy faster.

Avoiding hazard areas such as lava, acid, or steep falls.

High ground sniping positions. -Cover.

High ground scouting positions. -Concealment.

Faster access to king of the hill locations via jump.

Barriers which would normally be impossible to pass through giving access to an enemy's flank or approach vector.

Quicker retreat from combat.

Jump-jet exclusive brawling spots for jump-jet verse jump-jet duels.


I would like to see more consistent jump-jet level design so that jump jets feel more useful. Some maps the jump jet locations feel like a side note.

Edited by Sir Wolfenx, 08 April 2015 - 05:34 AM.

[SgtMagor]

jump jets just seem to be lacking all the way across the board, from light mechs to assaults, I don't care if they want the shaking cockpit or weapons that cant converge during jumps, I want to be able to do long high jumps, for recon, or defensive maneuvers. still say a Summoner with 5 hardwired jets should perform as well as a light mech...

Edited by SgtMagor, 08 April 2015 - 06:13 AM.

[zudukai]

i am enjoying running 3+ jump jets on most of my timber wolves, and imo, the advantage is real, but people do not use jump jets as i do, or rarely as i do, latteral jumps into combat, reinforcing a push from random angles, or just simply taking a shortcut.

the issue i encounter is simply lack of fuel, the height you reach is ok, but to jump over an assault you need a full burn of 4 jumpjets, this does not allow you to continue using the flying advantage for long.

and the Jester simply is not nearly as fun anymore, my timber wolf just entirely out paces it in every way, it desperately needs some nice JJ tweaks, i vote in favor for recharge speed.

[MonkeyDCecil]

I am starting to get really pissed off about the state of JJs in this game. I put four JJs on my Urbie and only get 34.6 meters. With a slow start and a awful finish. In TT I would get about 120 meters for four JJs. I should at least get 40 meters, a quarter of TT values. But I would prefer half of TT values, so 60 meters. And a good solid take off with a fast climb.

Now I going to talk about the sadder state of JJs on assaults. Lets take the Heavy Metal. You put 5 JJs, that's ten tons, you get 33.3 meters. WTF you get less for more then the Urbie. Now in TT you would get about 150 meters. I would be fine with 50 meters. But we should get at least half of TT values, so 75 meters. As is I do not take JJs on assaults. You can not even use them to maneuver in Canyon. They be week sauce.

JJs need a change sooner then later PGI. Getting really tired of you being unable to balance, properly. You have a long history of doing this. Do not take a year or more before you get back to JJs. I do not care about being able to poptart. I just want good mobility.

Edited by MonkeyDCecil, 08 April 2015 - 10:10 AM.

[cSand]

JJs used to be more jumpy, but nublets couldn't handle the poptart boogeyman so they whined and complained and bam

here we are today

So don't thank PGI, thank the whiners who can't figure out how to deal with a poptart

[InspectorG]

cSand, on 08 April 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

JJs used to be more jumpy, but nublets couldn't handle the poptart boogeyman so they whined and complained and bam

here we are today

So don't thank PGI, thank the whiners who can't figure out how to deal with a poptart

You put poptarts in the toaster!

[cSand]

InspectorG, on 08 April 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

You put poptarts in the toaster!

aww yea for that SWEET SWEET CHOCOLATE

[XphR]

Poptarts taste like plastic, except peanut butter poptarts.. I would like to see more poptarts hit that level of excellence.

[cSand]

Viktor Drake, on 14 October 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

Simple. Just make it so firing while in the air is impossible. Basically say that because jumping requires so much power to diverted to the jet that and flight stabilizer systems that there isn't enough power left over to fire weapons.

Basically this allows for JJ to function solely as a mobility tool and also allows for PGI to loosen the restrictions on them and make them function like they should. Jump OR Fire but not both.

i just have to say this is the worst idea of all time

[OznerpaG]

first put JJ back to where they were so we can jump properly again. JJ's have to be good for actual jumping, right now they'r only good for climbing steep inclines or jumping over crevices


next, make each JJ worth 2sec or 3sec of JJ fuel - so if you have 3 JJ you have 6sec or 9sec of burn time (testing required for optimization)

or

make it take 30sec for your JJ fuel to regenerate fully with 1 JJ, and each additional JJ cuts the fuel regeneration time by half again. so:

1 JJ = 30sec fuel regeneration
2 JJ = 15sec
3 JJ = 7.5sec
4 JJ = 3.75sec

[Spleenslitta]

Here is some actual feedback.
The JJ update is fine for light and medium mechs but i've experienced 2 bugs.

1: if i fall down next to a wall that isn't 90 degrees straight down the mech scrapes along the surface or something.
Massive damage to the legs.

2: When i have a lot of JJ's and i jump on top of a building the mech sometimes makes an unaturall "hop" after the landing.
This "hop" is often high enough to damage the legs badly.