20 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

I mean really, is this game totally under the thumb of the "I hate FLD" crowd?

As far as I can tell the Clan AC10 (AKA Clan LB-10X) is just the Clan UAC10 except it won't fire extra volleys and is larger. Huh? Why is that? Why does it weigh the same and carry the same ammo per ton? Am I just supposed to not notice it's nerfed into ridiculousness?

Clan LBXs are supposed to be standard cannister or a single slug. Please don't bow to the "I hate FLD" crowd. Some of us like Battletech.

[FupDup]

By the way, the Clan AC/10 also has a slower base RoF than the Ultra 10, even while the UAC/10 isn't double-tapping (2.5 secs for UAC/10, 2.9 secs for AC/10). It's so freaking stupid.

The regular Clan ACs should have a faster base RoF if anything, counterbalanced by their larger size and inability to double tap.

Edited by FupDup, 08 July 2014 - 02:13 PM.

[SprechenSieSexy]

When I get Scrooge McDuck levels of surplus cash (this is a F2P game, so ofcourse you have to spent money), I will purchase Clan Mechs and just roflstomp everyone.
They are horribly under-powered!

[Edustaja]

It's a placeholder for LBX ammo switching,.

[Bilbo]

It's a place holder for ammunition switching. If they ever get the mechanic to work I wouldn't count on the mechanic changing though. I would love to try a 6 lbx 5 Direwolf with a single slug mechanic though.

[Koniving]

Technically, it depends on which lore source.

LB supposedly fires Cluster Shot or Standard AC rounds.
"The cluster round fragments in flight, peppering the target with submunitions. The cannon is able to punch through an opponent's armor with standard rounds, and then fire cluster rounds to increase the chance of scoring a critical hit on a target's internal systems. The LB-X's flak-like 'shotgun' effect also makes it an effective and deadly weapon against AeroSpace Fighters, VTOLs and Infantry.^[5][6][7]"

"Introduced in 2595 by the Terran Hegemony^[4]. The LB 10-X Autocannon is essentially a 'Mech-mounted shotgun, capable of firing special "cluster rounds" that split apart after being fired, allowing the weapon to either spread damage out or focus damage on a small area, depending on the range. LB-X Autocannons are able to use either the special cluster rounds or standard autocannon rounds."

Actually from what I can find, they all say standard rather than slug, including the Tech Readout 3050 book.

The standard autocannon rounds for a class 10 Autocannon is between 6 (120mm) and 20 rounds (80mm) per rating unit ("10 damage"). This goes for both sides Clan and IS.

[Karamarka]

Edustaja, on 08 July 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

It's a placeholder for LBX ammo switching,.

Yup.

[Koniving]

I could've sworn at least one claims Slug, but I'm not seeing any.

[Phlinger]

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

I could've sworn at least one claims Slug, but I'm not seeing any.

LB20-X AC

The LB 20-X AC is the autocannon with the largest bore that is capable of firing LB-X cluster rounds. Its slug round can deal a devastating 20 points of damage to any one location, while its shotgun-like cluster munitions deliver 20 different projectiles to its target, an effect that can be described as similar to a sandblasting.

[Koniving]

Ronyn, on 08 July 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

LB20-X AC

The LB 20-X AC is the autocannon with the largest bore that is capable of firing LB-X cluster rounds. Its slug round can deal a devastating 20 points of damage to any one location, while its shotgun-like cluster munitions deliver 20 different projectiles to its target, an effect that can be described as similar to a sandblasting.

Thank you for bringing it, it's one mention.

Sarna though, right? One depressing thing is that Sarna is a Wiki written by the fans and some official peoples, but mostly fans fleshing it out (truth be told in a few seconds I could edit that page and change it to standard rounds for example). It's like many Sarna pages say an AC/20 will strip 2.5 tons of armor in a single shot... Which while true in tabletop, the word is 'turn' or 'use', not shot, as AC/20s in lore fire anywhere from 4 to 100 shots (Inner Sphere) and 1 to 80 shots (Clan UAC/20) to get 20 damage. And the '1' is very hotly contested as the only single shot variant is on the Cauldron Born, and it's only depicted as a single shot in fan fiction and apocryphal fluff books, but not the official books.

Then there's related inconsistencies that Sarna presents, for example the Thunder battlemech 120mm AC/20 (Kali-Yama Big Bore) says 1 shot on the Sarna page much as previously mentioned. Meanwhile the books have 120mm being 2 to 3 shots for 5 damage (GM Whirlwind-5 in Thunder Ridge & Wolves on the Border. Both times burst fire, others tend to agree with 3 some say 2). 6 shots for 10 damage (Unnamed AC/10, Flashpoint), 12 shots for 20 damage
(Armstrong, Binding Force used by Von Luckner Main Battle Tank, burst fire. Defiance Disintegrator LBX, Patriots and Tyrants -- Used by a Barghest, the 'standard ammunition' fired 11 shot bursts and its Cluster Shot supposedly had 24 fragments. Kali Yama Big Bore, Threads of Ambition -- Used by Thunder, burst fire, "11 to 13" count. Death Giver, Storms of Fate. Automatic fire, 12 shot count, used by King Crab.)

There's obvious leeway given that different authors take their own liberties.

So while it does its best, its wording does need to be taken with a grain of salt (as with many sources). I use Sarna for quick references but in no means will I ever take it for gospel.

Spoiler

What I'll do instead is try and standardize it as I have. With all variations taken into account, I've come to a simple conclusion. 120mm rounds do 1.67 damage approximately (1.666666666666667 or 1 and 2/3rds) per shot. AC/10 fires those shots faster than the 5 (it's often described as such), AC/20 fires even faster than the 10. This standardizes it and with some loose exceptions, makes it all fit.

The ranges, as often explained even on Sarna, are because of recoil and other factors. After all if you're firing 12 shots with a large AC/20 in the same speed a smaller AC/10 is firing 6 shots, having about half the optimum range to land all your shots on the specific body part you aimed for makes quite a bit of sense; any farther than that and you'll likely lose rounds to the air.

To mention it, 150mm rounds do exactly 2 damage, while 185mm rounds do exactly 5 damage. Meanwhile the official account of a Tomodzuru Type 20 is that it does exactly 5 shots to a rating, so 5 * # = 20; well there's only 4. Those three are officially set standards. So anything under 150mm within reason should do less than 2 damage. Meanwhile, 80mm is semi-officially (fluff mag) 0.5 damage which is consistent with the books as the two 80mm ACs I found are both AC/5s, and both do 20 damage, while the one AC/2 I found does 4 shots. So anything above it must do 0.5, anything below must be less than 0.5 per shot in the ACs.

Now, one funny thing is that much of the lore will take multiple interpretations into account. For example there are over 44 unique regular IS medium lasers. Some beam over time, some instant beam but slow refire rate, some constant beam (ala the original Star Trek series phasers set to burn through something).

And the fluff even throws some fun stuff in there too (the original FASA fluff), for example the Rassal Blue Beam is a medium laser with a blue beam and high, nearly instant damage output, but can't be fired again for 8 seconds, spikes the heat very quickly, and causes EM Interference that disrupts ECM and other systems (preventing the use of ECM sniping with it as well as boating).

So it's very possible that while some LBs fire standard AC ammo, some could fire single shot slugs particularly when it comes to the larger ends of the smaller damage classes.

(Edits: put more of my reasoning and sources in).

Edited by Koniving, 08 July 2014 - 05:07 PM.

[Khobai]

Clan ACs and Clan UACs are both completely useless. Clan LB5Xs are better in every way.

1) LBX damage is frontloaded and not DoT. And we all know why DoT is so bad...
2) Compared to UAC5s, LB5Xs have the same tonnage, better range, better projectile velocity, and thanks to the patch: a decently tight spread.
3) No ghost heat on the LBXs so you can boat 5 of them without penalty.
4) LBXs get a bonus to crit and internal damage.
5) Once LBX gets the ability to switch ammo types they will be outright better than Ultras.

x5 LB5Xs is a seriously overpowered combination. I get 900+ damage almost every game with that.

Quote

By the way, the Clan AC/10 also has a slower base RoF than the Ultra 10, even while the UAC/10 isn't double-tapping (2.5 secs for UAC/10, 2.9 secs for AC/10). It's so freaking stupid.

The regular Clan ACs should have a faster base RoF if anything, counterbalanced by their larger size and inability to double tap.

LBXs would still be way better though. Because their damage is frontloaded. And the LB5Xs have a decently tight spread now so you can put most of that damage in the same spot.

Balancing Clan autocannons requires balancing all three types... thats the hole PGI has dug themselves in.

Edited by Khobai, 08 July 2014 - 04:58 PM.

[Sephlock]

Edustaja, on 08 July 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

It's a placeholder for LBX ammo switching,.

Although one wonders how worth it LBX will be compared to Ultras in situations where you aren't effectively mooching off your teammates.

[Phlinger]

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

Thank you for bringing it, it's one mention.

Ok, well, you asked for a slug reference, I gave it, even though I don't believe that ANY Battletech AC's should ever fire single slugs. I guess I could and should have been clearer.

There is reasoning as to why the Inner Sphere AC's are wrong and the current Clan AC's are correct. I am for ALL AC's being reverted to the current system the Clans have.

From the Battletech Master Rules guide

Quote

AUTOCANNON

An autocannon is a rapid-firing, auto-loading weapon that

fires high-speed streams of high-explosive, armor-piercing

shells. Light autocannon range in caliber from 30 to 90mm, and

heavy autocannon may be 80 to 120mm or larger

And then, here is the LBX rules from the Battletech Compendium when the Clans were introduced.

Quote

LB-X Autocannon
Another improvement over the common Autocannon, the LB-X makes use of light, heat-dissipating alloys to reduce weight and heat build-up. These materials make the weapon more expensive than the standard Autocannon, but its advantages are often worth the higher cost.

In addition to these advantages, the LB-X autocannon can use special cluster munitions, which act like an anti-Battlemech shotgun in combat.

-snipped for lack of relevance-

Before the start of play, the player must designate LB-X ammunition as either standard or cluster munitions. Ammo must be designated in full-ton lots. When firing, the player must declare what type of ammo is being used and mark it off his Record Sheet accordingly.

LB-X autocannon follow all other restrictions and rules for normal autocannon for their appropriate size.

Then, I looked further and found someone had already done the math years ago.

Quote

FASA fluff gives us a good idea of “where the shots are headed”, as the
saying goes, on both ROF and caliber, and from the scale of the ‘Mech
drawings, we get an approximate idea of what size ACs are.
To answer these questions we have to consider how many individual rounds are
in an AC “shot”. It's obvious by now that an AC “shot” is not a single
projectile, as much as some like the idea of an AC/20 firing a 200 kilos
shell with each pull of the trigger. And moreover, a vital consideration is
that the ammo tonnage represents both the projectile fired and the
propelling charge.
Therefore, I took ammunition sizes and weight tables, and compared the ammo
loads per ton of each AC type, to confirm the educated guesses I made about
their caliber.


AC/10
Caliber: 105 mm ( source , Divine Revelation
Volleys per ton: 10
Rounds per volley: 4
Total rounds per ton: 40
Weight of each round (projectile + cartridge): 25 kg
ROF (assuming a 2 second burst): 2 rounds/sec = 120 rpm
Effective Range: 1500 meters ( assuming 1 hex = 100 meters )
Present day equivalent: the 105mm round of the L7A1 tank gun standard of Western armies from the 60s to the early 80s is the exact equivalent.


AC/20
Caliber: 150-200 mm ( various sources: TRO 3026 Scarborough Original: 200mm, (p.32); Crusher SH Cannon: 150mm (p.42); Zeus 75 Mk IX "fires a four-round burst" (p.46); ChemJet Guns: 185mm (pp.68-70)
Volleys per ton: 5
Rounds per volley: 4
Total rounds per ton: 20
Weight of each round (projectile + cartridge): 50 kg
ROF (assuming a 2 second burst): 2 rounds/sec = 120 rpm
Effective Range: 900 meters ( assuming 1 hex = 100 meters )

[color="#000000"]The present day 105mm round weighs exactly 25 kg, confirming the accuracy of assumptions regarding caliber and rate of fire. Considering the time of the writing, it's logical to assume the author patterned the standard autocannon, after present day tank guns, and considering the author was American, and that at the time ( circa 1984 ) the US Army hadn't yet upgraded to the German 120mm Rheinmetall smoothbore gun ( a different story altogether ) it's certain that the AC/10 was patterned after the 105mm, wich had been a NATO standard for 20 years.[/color]

[color="#000000"]So far so good, round, ROF and damage potential look right, but when we examine range, Battletech rules and reality begin to diverge. There are a host of reasons that explain the discrepancy that are dealth with in the following sections. Here I'll comment only on the ballistic properties.[/color]

[color="#000000"]To make a long story short, what's relevant is not the actual range of the round, but the effective range. It's irrelevant that a 105mm projectile can reach up to 4,000 meters, if the majority of engagements are fought at ranges below 2,000, other than in the desert, visibility and direct Line Of Sight is restricted in most terrains far below that. Add to that the technological decay and the ensuing loss of precision, and a range of 1,500 meters for the AC/10 isn't bad at all. ( Note: If you still object to this, I remind you the Soviet Army tank gunnery doctrine was based on this reasoning. Don't bother in ensuring accuracy at ranges that belong more into the theory than in most real-life experience. Of course, this thinking backfired on Soviet equipment in the desert against Israel and the US, but that doesn't mean the doctrine is wrong, but inadequate to a set of circunstances and adequate for others )[/color]

Edited by Ronyn, 08 July 2014 - 06:51 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 08 July 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Clan ACs and Clan UACs are both completely useless. Clan LB5Xs are better in every way.

1) LBX damage is frontloaded and not DoT. And we all know why DoT is so bad...
2) Compared to UAC5s, LB5Xs have the same tonnage, better range, better projectile velocity, and thanks to the patch: a decently tight spread.
3) No ghost heat on the LBXs so you can boat 5 of them without penalty.
4) LBXs get a bonus to crit and internal damage.
5) Once LBX gets the ability to switch ammo types they will be outright better than Ultras.

x5 LB5Xs is a seriously overpowered combination. I get 900+ damage almost every game with that.



LBXs would still be way better though. Because their damage is frontloaded. And the LB5Xs have a decently tight spread now so you can put most of that damage in the same spot.

Balancing Clan autocannons requires balancing all three types... thats the hole PGI has dug themselves in.

Their damage might be frontloaded, but it ain't pinpoint. At longer ranges, a lot of your pellets won't be hitting and those that do won't always be hitting the single component you want to destroy. Your "on paper" range is long, but your "effective" range is much less than what spreadsheets indicate (due to spread). Also, you only do a total of 25 damage (excluding crits) with 5 LBX5, which is the same as 1 PPC + 1 Gauss for a lot more tonnage (and less pinpoint). CERPPC + CGauss is a better combination for abusing convergence.

[Ultimax]

It's a placeholder for cbills that you will never get back.

[Strum Wealh]

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

I could've sworn at least one claims Slug, but I'm not seeing any.

The name slug is used in some canonical references (e.g. "...a double-fired Ultra-AC/20 and an LB 20-X using solid slug ammunition..." (TacOps, pg. 124)), though the official explanation is that LB-X non-cluster munitions are not true slugs (which, by definition, are solid projectiles with no explosive payload), but shells ("...a payload-carrying projectile which, as opposed to shot, contains an explosive or other filling...") similar to those fired by Standard ACs.

The "slug" moniker is ostensibly used to play up the LB-X ACs' role as "anti-BattleMech shotgun", in likening the LB-X "normal"/HEAP shells to shotgun slugs as the counterpart to the LB-X cluster rounds behaving like gigantic shotgun shells.

[WarHippy]

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

Which while true in tabletop

The literary fluff that describes them firing clouds of rounds, or raking a burst of AC rounds across a mechs chest is why I have never looked at the fluff for how the ACs should be implemented. Table top are the rules of how it works, and the authors use the setting to paint a pretty picture. I say to make everyone happy ACs fire a burst of rounds, but only the first one does the full damage and the rest are just visual fluff.

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

There's obvious leeway given that different authors take their own liberties.

Agreed.

[Lostdragon]

I'd like to see the LBX get a single shot slug that behaves like an actual shotgun slug. Shotgun barrels are smooth bore but larger caliber than your typical rifle. A slug carries more kinetic energy than a typical rifle round because it is several times more massive, but they are also inaccurate at long range and lose their kinetic energy quickly. Most rifles will fire a much flatter trajectory over much longer ranges.

So if the LBX slug was implemented with half the range or so of equivalent rating burst fire UACs and LBX cluster rounds it would give everything a niche. LBX ACs would be the premier brawling weapon due to the slug's ability to strip armor from one spot and the cluster round's increased crit. This would also encourage builds that use both UACs for medium to long range engagement and LBXs with ammo of both types.

[Trauglodyte]

The AC10 is for kicking ass when the rest of the community runs around derping it up cause it isn't "elite" status. The 10 works just fine.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Its a place holder weapon because they are having difficulty getting the LB-X to switch between shot modes. Eventually there will be one single weapon you can not take because the UAC10 is better.