57 replies to this topic

[Lynx7725]

Suggestion: Adjust the bias for premade 2~4 groups such that they would preferentially go into the Solo PUG Queue, but also sufficient to help make up numbers within the Group Queue.

Problem Statement:

Currently, after the group size changes, the MM has been changed to accommodate a larger variety of group sizes. This resulted in the PUG games being more likely to have only solo players, which as noted elsewhere, has some beneficial aspects.

However, my personal experience right now is that PUG games are increasingly less organized and more about PUGs moving around randomly and shooting things. It's not at the "Pull your hair out" levels, but certain team-focused builds are less viable in solo PUGs nowadays. For example, LRM boats and brawl builds are now much more situational, depending on how awake the rest of the team is. About the only thing that's consistent is the presence of long range direct damage dealers, which results in a game situation where other roles can be twiddling thumbs for a while until the rest of the team decide randomly to do something (usually batshit insane).

It's not necessarily bad because you do end up becoming better if you are running such team builds, but it's a somewhat steep curve and because it's not systemic -- you're depending on random PUGs after all -- it can be frustrating. It also introduces a divide between PUGs and team games, in which in PUGs you are more likely to be rewarded for taking certain builds, but you will have a harder time to pick up the skill set needed to run certain team builds that are beneficial in team games.

In the past, having pre-mades in PUGs meant that there is some structure to the teams and they provided a core of reliable teamwork for the rest of the solos to work around. That meant some of the solos could play with team-based builds and learn from the experience.

I recognize the need to use the 2~4 men premades to fill the gaps in the group games, and also the need to reduce the 2~4 men PUG-stomp events in the solo games. As such, what I am proposing is for the bias for the 2~4 men premades to be moved more towards the solo queue, with the intention of providing the solo PUG games more structure.

The exact quantum of change would of course be reliant on PGI's data analysis.

Personally, I never really thought I'd miss the premades in PUG games, but it is a bit random nowadays. Yes, you guys can say take command and all that, but fundamentally, 12-random PUGs is 12 random cats, and trying to herd cats while getting shot at by cats.. well, honestly I don't think the Mythbusters tried that yet.

[Vassago Rain]

But, but, but...everybody told me that teams were BAD for the solos!

HOW COULD THIS BE!?

[Lynx7725]

Vassago Rain, on 07 July 2014 - 07:59 PM, said:

But, but, but...everybody told me that teams were BAD for the solos!

HOW COULD THIS BE!?

I know right? It's the apocalypse.

I won't deny Pugstomping is bad, but now that I've seen the inanity that solo PUGs with ZERO idea of teamwork can get up to.. seriously, we need a bit more structure in place.

TBH, unless we get better C3i tools in game, I suspect we'll need to keep a pre-made or two in PUG games, just so that the solos can at least have a shot at learning about teamwork.

[El Bandito]

Lynx7725, on 07 July 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

However, my personal experience right now is that PUG games are increasingly less organized and more about PUGs moving around randomly and shooting things. It's not at the "Pull your hair out" levels, but certain team-focused builds are less viable in solo PUGs nowadays. For example, LRM boats and brawl builds are now much more situational, depending on how awake the rest of the team is.

Judging from the river of tears from the n00bs in forums about LRMs, one would think every match has 12 LRM boats per team, though.

Just another proof that LRM QQers exaggerate everything.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 July 2014 - 08:24 PM.

[Lynx7725]

El Bandito, on 07 July 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

Judging from the river of tears from the n00bs in forums about LRMs, one would think every match has 12 LRM boats per team, though.

Just another proof that LRM QQers exaggerate everything.

I've recently had the "pleasure" of video'ing a particular group game from my perspective (as a LRM specialist) and seeing the twitch channel of the recipient, and I can say that LRMs look scary and huge, but bark is worse than bite.. a single LRM Boat chain firing a trio of 15s can look like a whole team of LRM boats firing on the receiving end.

[Vassago Rain]

Lynx7725, on 07 July 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

I know right? It's the apocalypse.

I won't deny Pugstomping is bad, but now that I've seen the inanity that solo PUGs with ZERO idea of teamwork can get up to.. seriously, we need a bit more structure in place.

TBH, unless we get better C3i tools in game, I suspect we'll need to keep a pre-made or two in PUG games, just so that the solos can at least have a shot at learning about teamwork.

There hasn't been any real pubstomping since they took out 8 manz dropping into the ghetto. What they like to pretend is pubstomping is really just someone rallying the pubs to fight, while your own side shoots LRMs into rocks.

[Jez]

Oh god no, please don't do this.

I'd rather face a 12 man team than have to work with 8-10 random solo puggers. At least in the group queue I can expect a reasonable level of competency from my teammate. In the solo queue, I have no confidence whatsoever.

The quality of play in the solo queue is really bad. Kind of how it's like when a major game content patch is released and we get flooded with lots of new and long lost players who predictably chase down the nearest red Dorito or send all their heavies and assault to chase after that lone squirrel or walk out into open water when it's raining LRMs...and so on...

I'm tired of taking command. I'm tired of being the scout. Tired of being the one to gather intel and drop the UAV only for it to be ignored. I'm tired of having to escort our direwolves to safety. I'm tired of having to watch our backdoors and flanks because everyone else wants to get in on that kill. Tired of being the one to rally the push and led the charge only to die by myself because my puggers chickened out at the first instance of getting their virtual paint scratched. I'm tired of typing out where to rally, where the baddies are, where we need ECM support, when to push, when to hold, who to focus fire on. Nowadays If I want to win in the solo queues I have to be more of a keyboard-warrior than a mechwarrior and I ain't getting XP or c-bills for my efforts when I do. Hell I don't even get a pat on the back or a thank you. The quality of play in the solo queues is just one gigantic, massive, Oklahoma grass fed cow patty.

There's got to be a better way to introduce organized group play to the solo puggers than force-integrate the small groups.

Edited by Jez, 07 July 2014 - 10:42 PM.

[Lynx7725]

Jez, on 07 July 2014 - 10:36 PM, said:

Oh god now please don't do this.

I'm not sure I understand your position -- I'm suggesting to tweak the frequency which 2~4 pre-mades drop into the PUG games, so that they can provide some form of structure to the solo game, precisely to address the issue that you are facing (yes, I'm getting tired of escorting DWs to the front only for the front to run away and get themselves killed before the DW has an impact).

They don't need to lead or anything really. Prior to the group size changes, there aren't that much comms between premades and pugs, and the premades simply just went about their business while the PUGs gave some support (if at all). Now it's just 12 random crazies going about their own business, and it seems that whichever team that happened to be headed in the same direction wins.

[NextGame]

I'm surprised that people havent made the connection yet that it might be logical that if they play the more popular weight classes (heavy/assault) they are more likely to end up in pugland than groupland as they are less likely to get picked to fill slots in groups due to 3/3/3/3.

Hypothesis of course, but im sure its worth giving a test.

[Vassago Rain]

Lynx7725, on 07 July 2014 - 10:44 PM, said:

I'm not sure I understand your position -- I'm suggesting to tweak the frequency which 2~4 pre-mades drop into the PUG games, so that they can provide some form of structure to the solo game, precisely to address the issue that you are facing (yes, I'm getting tired of escorting DWs to the front only for the front to run away and get themselves killed before the DW has an impact).

They don't need to lead or anything really. Prior to the group size changes, there aren't that much comms between premades and pugs, and the premades simply just went about their business while the PUGs gave some support (if at all). Now it's just 12 random crazies going about their own business, and it seems that whichever team that happened to be headed in the same direction wins.

He's saying that, just like me, he has absolutely no interest of playing in the underhive. Not even for free cash and huge XP rewards.

Decent players don't want to go there anymore. They're tired of playing with the bads, because even when decent players win matches for the bads, said bads have a habit of blaming everything on the evil pubstomping premades from elite guilds - even if those guilds didn't participate in the game.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

I see little evidence that premades introduce any structure at all to pug matches. In my experience they never communicate with their pug team. I can't remember the last time I saw one announce its presence and propose a plan.

I have, however, had some very good games since the MM changes. I haven't kept stats, but things certainly feel more balanced. Maybe I'm lucky, but in my drops most pugs seem very familiar with the game and know what to do. I don't often see players doing crazy things. The handicap, as always, is that PGI hasn't provided any useful coms tools such as a command rose so you have to be very aware of what's going on around you and try and work with the players and builds that have actually turned up on your team.

For myself, I'd prefer premades to be kept out of the solo queue altogether. They still have a huge advantage over random puggers and a well coordinated premade will still roll the opposition most times. Far better to have a solo queue, a 12-man queue for competitive tryhards and an "all other group plus volunteer solo players" queue. I guess PGI are reluctant to do this because of the small player base allied to great confidence in their Elo system.

[WhiteRabbit]

why would you do that....finally there are two queues that are really different. There's chaostown with all the wonderfull chaos and confusion and then there's the goup queue with the teamplay. Why would anyone go back to the same boring mishmash we had over the last 2 years?
Just keep it the way it is right now (I'd rather have no premades at all in the solo-queue for maximum chaos...but that's prob just me)

Edited by WhiteRabbit, 07 July 2014 - 11:49 PM.

[Lynx7725]

Vassago Rain, on 07 July 2014 - 11:30 PM, said:

He's saying that, just like me, he has absolutely no interest of playing in the underhive. Not even for free cash and huge XP rewards.

That's fair enough. Just get into a group of 5+ and you'll be out of the solo PUG system. That's the case now, with or without this proposed tweak.

To address why -- at the end of day, we still need to prepare a progression path for solos to train up in team-style combat. One can argue that the solos can go and find existing guilds or make their own groups, but there is still a need for some sort of structure within solo PUGs to provide them with the experience needed. Otherwise, existing groups will also have an retraining issue when they recruit such players.

Utter Chaos in the solo PUG queue may be fun for established players, but also acts as a barrier of entry for new players. I'd agree a better C3i UI in game would be better in the long run, but that's if PGI even have that on its roadmap.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Biggest propaganda thread going. Dropping solo one see's many of those regular experts here in matches. Farming XP?

Who knows?

Keep you playstyle and tactics upstairs then rather than trashing pugs.

Give us Voip in game and lets see how it goes then. Casuals and New players are picking things up as they go while having to deal with a keyboard that stops all control till the message is sent. Its a huge handicap in information warfare and tactical speed yet many of us prefer it. Why? In my case I don t appreciate the herd mentality and groupthink pushing every one into the same "competitive" box. I don't want to decimate my enemy in concentrated fire while hiding in ecm hoardes. I just want a decent fight with what the game tools give me while driving stompy robots. Still you want to force everyone into one playstyle.

For many of us its just a game, Were not interested in lore TT or epeen stats. Get over it. Were all not the same.

[Willard Phule]

I think that's a very well thought out idea. AND...PGI should implement it. IN TWO YEARS.

Sorry man, I'm a solo dropper and I've experienced the 4-man pugstomp more times than I care to remember. Know what the advice was to us back when it was an issue? "JOIN A GROUP."

So....I understand your frustration. It sucks when you get rolled by a bigger, more organized team...it really does. So, my suggestion to the 4-man groups that are getting constantly rolled is....JOIN A BIGGER GROUP.

Sorry, I know that sounds snotty, but it's about time the tables were turned.....and it should be fixed with the same alacrity as it was dealt with when you were stomping the solos. So, about two years or so...

Mudhutwarrior, on 08 July 2014 - 02:57 AM, said:

Give us Voip in game and lets see how it goes then. Casuals and New players are picking things up as they go while having to deal with a keyboard that stops all control till the message is sent. Its a huge handicap in information warfare and tactical speed yet many of us prefer it.

VOIP would work well for people like you. But you're a unique case.

Most of us don't speak English, German, Russian, French, Chinese, Japanese, Outer Slobnokinan and Noob. We're limited to one, maybe two, languages.

Now, if PGI were to hire someone like you to remain on the VOIP at all times to translate for the 12 people that don't have a common language.....that'd work swell.

Perhaps you should suggest that to Russ on twitter. They ARE hiring, after all, and all you have to do is move to Canada. Worth thinking about.

[Torgun]

The only thing this thread tells me is there needs to be a dislike button, so I can use it for the OP. If you miss playing with premades I can strongly suggest you group up and become a premade, then you'll be seeing them all the time. Problem solved.

[Bobzilla]

Lynx7725, on 07 July 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

Suggestion: Adjust the bias for premade 2~4 groups such that they would preferentially go into the Solo PUG Queue, but also sufficient to help make up numbers within the Group Queue.

Problem Statement:

Currently, after the group size changes, the MM has been changed to accommodate a larger variety of group sizes. This resulted in the PUG games being more likely to have only solo players, which as noted elsewhere, has some beneficial aspects.

However, my personal experience right now is that PUG games are increasingly less organized and more about PUGs moving around randomly and shooting things. It's not at the "Pull your hair out" levels, but certain team-focused builds are less viable in solo PUGs nowadays. For example, LRM boats and brawl builds are now much more situational, depending on how awake the rest of the team is. About the only thing that's consistent is the presence of long range direct damage dealers, which results in a game situation where other roles can be twiddling thumbs for a while until the rest of the team decide randomly to do something (usually batshit insane).

It's not necessarily bad because you do end up becoming better if you are running such team builds, but it's a somewhat steep curve and because it's not systemic -- you're depending on random PUGs after all -- it can be frustrating. It also introduces a divide between PUGs and team games, in which in PUGs you are more likely to be rewarded for taking certain builds, but you will have a harder time to pick up the skill set needed to run certain team builds that are beneficial in team games.

In the past, having pre-mades in PUGs meant that there is some structure to the teams and they provided a core of reliable teamwork for the rest of the solos to work around. That meant some of the solos could play with team-based builds and learn from the experience.

I recognize the need to use the 2~4 men premades to fill the gaps in the group games, and also the need to reduce the 2~4 men PUG-stomp events in the solo games. As such, what I am proposing is for the bias for the 2~4 men premades to be moved more towards the solo queue, with the intention of providing the solo PUG games more structure.

The exact quantum of change would of course be reliant on PGI's data analysis.

Personally, I never really thought I'd miss the premades in PUG games, but it is a bit random nowadays. Yes, you guys can say take command and all that, but fundamentally, 12-random PUGs is 12 random cats, and trying to herd cats while getting shot at by cats.. well, honestly I don't think the Mythbusters tried that yet.

The biggest problem with your post is, it's easier to use anything against less organized teams. Like you said, people moving randomly. Which make great targets for LRMs or being caught in brawler range. With the added bonus of not having their entire team backing them to focus you.

Now if you used LRM boats to just sit back and depend on indirect fire, or brawlers that waited until one of your team mates was getting focused and stayed on the fringe, then yes, you may have a slightly harder go of it.

If everyone in pugs on both sides is running around without any sense of team, but you have team play in mind, you should be doing better because of that advantage. It's not only your team playing that way, so look within for solutions. If LRM boats or brawlers aren't as viable in the pugs now, does that mean all the snipers are winning? Or that people are taking balanced loadouts as they can't depend on being able to stick to one certain situation where they will excel but do crappy in all other instances?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Solo queue has felt fine, maybe it's an ELO thing? But most of my matches have been fairly competitive and depending on if someone decides to take charge (I do it sometimes), they have a decent amount of strategy and tactics.

Nothing on the group queue level, but mostly that's because there is no control over what mechs/roles are represented in the solo queue.

I think that matchmaker/queue wise the game is in the best state that I've ever seen it.

[Prezimonto]

Lynx7725, on 07 July 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

Suggestion: Adjust the bias for premade 2~4 groups such that they would preferentially go into the Solo PUG Queue, but also sufficient to help make up numbers within the Group Queue.

Problem Statement:

Currently, after the group size changes, the MM has been changed to accommodate a larger variety of group sizes. This resulted in the PUG games being more likely to have only solo players, which as noted elsewhere, has some beneficial aspects.

However, my personal experience right now is that PUG games are increasingly less organized and more about PUGs moving around randomly and shooting things. It's not at the "Pull your hair out" levels, but certain team-focused builds are less viable in solo PUGs nowadays. For example, LRM boats and brawl builds are now much more situational, depending on how awake the rest of the team is. About the only thing that's consistent is the presence of long range direct damage dealers, which results in a game situation where other roles can be twiddling thumbs for a while until the rest of the team decide randomly to do something (usually batshit insane).

It's not necessarily bad because you do end up becoming better if you are running such team builds, but it's a somewhat steep curve and because it's not systemic -- you're depending on random PUGs after all -- it can be frustrating. It also introduces a divide between PUGs and team games, in which in PUGs you are more likely to be rewarded for taking certain builds, but you will have a harder time to pick up the skill set needed to run certain team builds that are beneficial in team games.

In the past, having pre-mades in PUGs meant that there is some structure to the teams and they provided a core of reliable teamwork for the rest of the solos to work around. That meant some of the solos could play with team-based builds and learn from the experience.

I recognize the need to use the 2~4 men premades to fill the gaps in the group games, and also the need to reduce the 2~4 men PUG-stomp events in the solo games. As such, what I am proposing is for the bias for the 2~4 men premades to be moved more towards the solo queue, with the intention of providing the solo PUG games more structure.

The exact quantum of change would of course be reliant on PGI's data analysis.

Personally, I never really thought I'd miss the premades in PUG games, but it is a bit random nowadays. Yes, you guys can say take command and all that, but fundamentally, 12-random PUGs is 12 random cats, and trying to herd cats while getting shot at by cats.. well, honestly I don't think the Mythbusters tried that yet.

I think what we really need is a simple exception: if your group has a player who hasn't earned the Knight Errant achievement (is still earning a cadet bonus) it should be placed into the solo queue (no chance to go into group queue). If everyone has Knight Errant, I'm okay with things as they stand, as long as we get better VOIP in-game and a good command wheel sooner rather than 2 years from now.

What I'd really like to see is the return of the 1 minute pre-game wait, BUT during that time commanders and lance commanders can edit lances, ping the map, and set orders while everyone is watching. Also one of the easily visible screen in every cockpit should have the map with orders up, at all times, as well as the small one centered on your mech.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Prezimonto, on 08 July 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

I think what we really need is a simple exception: if your group has a player who hasn't earned the Knight Errant achievement (is still earning a cadet bonus) it should be placed into the solo queue (no chance to go into group queue). If everyone has Knight Errant, I'm okay with things as they stand, as long as we get better VOIP in-game and a good command wheel sooner rather than 2 years from now.

I could totally get behind this. I know some people are going to whine and cry about smurfing or whatever. But I think that'll be the exception more than the rule.