16 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Quoted from
http://mwomercs.com/...51#entry3541951

Quote

One common misconception that I've seen concerning these changes is that this was supposed to "fix" the "pop-tart meta". That is not the case. Just to be clear, we are not trying to remove pop-tarting from MWO. It is a valid, tactical means of play. The way we want to address it is from a cost per performance view, not eliminate it.

I understand that it is a valid tactical means of play. I do not disagree there.

My concern is that it [and I am lumping it in with corner/hill groping long range PPFLD builds] is the *only* tactical means of play if you want to compete.

Currently: PPCs and Gauss have the same Rate of Fire, among the longest ranges in the game, and have pinpoint front-loaded damage.

What risk is there?
If someone is at range...you shoot them (every 4 seconds)
If someone is up close...you shoot them (every 4 seconds)
If someone fires missiles at you...you shoot them...and get back behind cover.
If someone charges you...you shoot them...get behind cover...and then shoot them again.
If they are in your face...you shoot them...give them a shield side...then shoot them again.

What other weapon set has that ability? None.
SRMs: Capped at 270 meters. (SRM6: Same rate of fire)
SSRMs: Capped at 270-360 (Requires lock to shoot.)
LRMs: Several seconds travel time. (Also requires lock for guidance)
Lasers: .6 to 1.5s duration to deliver damage. (Easy for Target to turn and spread damage, while requiring facing them to deliver it.)
UACs: Must face the opponent constantly to deliver damage. (Damage over time)
AC20: 270-540 range. (With the same rate of fire.)

Yes, I know PPCs have high heat, but DHS counters that very well. (Especially the regular PPCs)
Gauss is fragile.. once you get through the armor.

-------------------------------------------
My question is: Is PGi okay with tournaments and CWs battles being an expo in PPCs/Gauss/IS-ACs?

I just want that cleared up.

[FupDup]

The likehood of The Nerfinator Paul seeing this thread is...low, unfortunately.

[Soulscour]

Don't answer him paul!

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 08 July 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

The likehood of The Nerfinator Paul seeing this thread is...low, unfortunately.

It needs addressed to Twitter!

[MAXrobo]

Something I'v been wondering is, why isn't the minimum range on PPCs doubled? If max range on everything is doubled as well, wouldn't it make sense to put the PPCs minimum to 180 as well? They would still be a great sniper weapon, and jump snipers could still do their thing, but it would give a little more risk to bringing them as is wouldn't be quite so perfect at all ranges. plus it just kinda seems logical with the other range changes.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Well, if the problem is combining PPCs and ERPPCs with Gauss and FLD Ballistics, what about enforcing a new grouped Heat Scale Penalty on them?

So two ER/PPC and a Gauss would count as three on the scale hitting being 42.6 to 57.15 heat?

Then two ER/PPC and two AC/5 could trigger as three or four 73.6 to 92.4 heat?

[Livewyr]

Praetor Knight, on 08 July 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

Well, if the problem is combining PPCs and ERPPCs with Gauss and FLD Ballistics, what about enforcing a new grouped Heat Scale Penalty on them?

So two ER/PPC and a Gauss would count as three on the scale hitting being 42.6 to 57.15 heat?

Then two ER/PPC and two AC/5 could trigger as three or four 73.6 to 92.4 heat?

You could do that... Or you might do something that makes sense based on the weapons themselves...like have the weapons exchange their superior range for Rate of Fire. (That way, when a different weapon set shows up, it owns them in a close range fight.)

[Ultimax]

Wow, so far in this thread:

1) Suggestion for More nerfs to gauss.
2) Suggestion to have a weapon with 33% of its optimal range unusable.
3) Suggestion for More Ghost heat, and for weapons that aren't even the same types of weapon systems.

All of this to curb a meta based on convergence of weapons, and perfect accuracy while airborne...

Edited by Ultimatum X, 08 July 2014 - 06:50 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Livewyr, on 08 July 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

You could do that... Or you might do something that makes sense based on the weapons themselves...like have the weapons exchange their superior range for Rate of Fire. (That way, when a different weapon set shows up, it owns them in a close range fight.)

Yeah, the only reason I ask is that, those particular combos seem to be an easy way to drop 30 to 35 damage every ~4 seconds, but a common concern is that making changes to the weapons themselves could create other issues on mechs that don't make use of those particular combos.

I can certainly see increasing cooldown on PPCs and Gauss, but how high can those values go? Since more than 6 seconds might be too much for IS PPCs (ER and Clan ERPPC might be fine at 6+ seconds though) and would something like an 8 to 10 second cooldown be fine on Gauss Rifles?

But, honestly I'd prefer tweaking Heat Capacity over tweaking weapons further. Set a universal Heat Capacity that allows for a 29.9 heat before seeing the first opportunity for a shutdown and have active Heat effects from firing two rapidly.

Here's a table that I was using to brainstorm how applying the Heat Effects might work in a real time environment.

Spoiler

[Livewyr]

Ultimatum X, on 08 July 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

Wow, so far in this thread:

1) Suggestion for More nerfs to gauss.
2) Suggestion to have a weapon with 33% of its optimal range unusable.
3) Suggestion for More Ghost heat, and for weapons that aren't even the same types of weapon systems.

All of this to curb a meta based on convergence of weapons, and perfect accuracy while airborne...

I asked a question about this in another thread... and never got a response:

Quote

Could you tell me how you would implement the firing system in MWO?
One that would:
Be able to maintain a damage spread on an Assault mech & a damage spread on a light mech.. while being able to *hit* both. (And in the case of both- being able to hit profile shots.) The size of a Spider is vastly different than the size of an Atlas. (What is Whole Mech for a Spider, is CT for an Atlas)

Praetor Knight, on 08 July 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

Yeah, the only reason I ask is that, those particular combos seem to be an easy way to drop 30 to 35 damage every ~4 seconds, but a common concern is that making changes to the weapons themselves could create other issues on mechs that don't make use of those particular combos.

I can certainly see increasing cooldown on PPCs and Gauss, but how high can those values go? Since more than 6 seconds might be too much for IS PPCs (ER and Clan ERPPC might be fine at 6+ seconds though) and would something like an 8 to 10 second cooldown be fine on Gauss Rifles?

But, honestly I'd prefer tweaking Heat Capacity over tweaking weapons further. Set a universal Heat Capacity that allows for a 29.9 heat before seeing the first opportunity for a shutdown and have active Heat effects from firing two rapidly.

Here's a table that I was using to brainstorm how applying the Heat Effects might work in a real time environment.

Spoiler

I completely agree with excessive heat effects. (I have made such cases before, multiple times, for over a year.

As far as builds that use only 1 of the two ((ER)PPC/Gauss)- they would be negatively effected by the weapon being slowed down... but that would be the trade-off for carrying a long range PPFLD weapon. If they are only carrying the 1 GR or PPC, then that means either:
A: They have other weapons to back them up in other/closer engagements.
or
B: If that is the only weapon they carry, then they choose to exchange the ability to brawl for the ability to fully engage at range. Just like the PPC/Gauss builds.

[Ultimax]

Livewyr, on 08 July 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

I asked a question about this in another thread... and never got a response:

Could you tell me how you would implement the firing system in MWO?
One that would:
Be able to maintain a damage spread on an Assault mech & a damage spread on a light mech.. while being able to *hit* both. (And in the case of both- being able to hit profile shots.) The size of a Spider is vastly different than the size of an Atlas. (What is Whole Mech for a Spider, is CT for an Atlas)

Can you hit with every last ounce of spread damage weapons on a light mech now where you are aiming - onto one single component?

SSRMs, SRMs, Beam Weapons, LB-X ACs, cUACs, LRMs?


The answer is no, you can't.


Also, light mechs already suffer from being blasted to dust from huge Alphas anyway.

That's why there is an entire thread on their low representation in the queue numbers (as low as 5% frequently).


So I don't see an issue if some of your weapons don't all hit the exact same center torso or leg of a light mech - and in fact they might live a bit longer.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 08 July 2014 - 07:41 PM.

[Livewyr]

Ultimatum X, on 08 July 2014 - 07:40 PM, said:

Can you hit with every last ounce of spread damage weapons on a light mech now where you are aiming - onto one single component?

SSRMs, SRMs, Beam Weapons, LB-X ACs, cUACs, LRMs?


The answer is no, you can't.


Also, light mechs already suffer from being blasted to dust from huge Alphas anyway.

That's why there is an entire thread on their low representation in the queue numbers (as low as 5% frequently).


So I don't see an issue if some of your weapons don't all hit the exact same center torso or leg of a light mech - and in fact they might live a bit longer.

I think you miss the point.

If you set it so the weapons are spread over the spider.. they will all hit the CT of an Atlas.
If you set the weapons to spread all over an Atlas, you will be lucky to graze a spider. Ever.

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 July 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

It needs addressed to Twitter!

Paul hates twitter.

But, I have it on good authority he likes to be PM'd on Candy Crush!

[Ultimax]

Livewyr, on 08 July 2014 - 07:49 PM, said:

I think you miss the point.

If you set it so the weapons are spread over the spider.. they will all hit the CT of an Atlas.
If you set the weapons to spread all over an Atlas, you will be lucky to graze a spider. Ever.

Actually the best proposal I've heard was actually more like stagger firing.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3270083


With that, multiple systems would spread naturally similar to how burst fire clan UACs "spread" their damage now.

If both targets are standing still, you can hit exactly where you are aiming.

[Livewyr]

Ultimatum X, on 08 July 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

Actually the best proposal I've heard was actually more like stagger firing.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3270083


With that, multiple systems would spread naturally similar to how burst fire clan UACs "spread" their damage now.

If both targets are standing still, you can hit exactly where you are aiming.

GCD? (To clarify: Is that between all weapons? Or is it a firing delay?)

[Ultimax]

Livewyr, on 08 July 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

GCD? (To clarify: Is that between all weapons? Or is it a firing delay?)

Only a slight firing delay, and only for ballistics and PPCs being fired at the same time.

It's enough to reduce pinpoint, but still allows player skill to shine through.

[cSand]

I remember how to beat it now

keep your head down, then when you get close enough force feed the guy with the 2ppc and gauss or w/e he has his own ass courtesy of your SRMs and w/e else you have. That pinpoint front loaded damage is only good if you're not moving and there's more than enough cover in any level. You may have to work with some teammates though to make it happen which I understand is hard

Force them to fight you, not the other way round.

I see these guys. They constantly poke their head up / walk out the same spot over and over, get rocked by ppc/gauss/ac/erLlas "snipers", over and over. Then they come back, all cored up and useless to the damn team, going "F PGI, the meta needs to be DEALT WITH"

Which is true but the stupidity meta is a tough one to nerf

The main problem is that people need to grow some cajones

Edited by cSand, 08 July 2014 - 09:49 PM.