81 replies to this topic

[Sneaky B]

Bringing back repair and rearm has several advantages:

1. Players play smarter
2. You will see less assault mechs and more medium mechs
3. Players have to decide if they'll risk putting on advanced equipment/upgrades
4. There's incentive to conquer planets for resources
5. role warfare

Edited by Sneaky B, 06 September 2013 - 05:31 PM.

[Crazyeyes244]

Never gonna happen, sadly.

[Cyanid7]

I hardly support Sneaky Bs suggestion!

Sam might be right, but it doesn´t keep me away from supporting it

Edited by Cyanid7, 06 September 2013 - 05:30 PM.

[Monky]

I like it for the feel of it, but there are valid points on it being a fun tax.

No one wants to spend hours grinding for an XL engine only to find it to be a giant money sink. (well, not most people). Most people aren't capable of playing 'smarter' to the degree that is necessary to repair things like that, at least under the old system.

Maybe with adjusted, practical prices and increased cbill earnings it could come back, but people where also found to be exploiting cbill farming by not repairing anything (an option I feel was a mistake) and entering matches with a barebones empty mech to get rewards. I think all the problems are fixable, just would eat up a lot of dev time for a fairly minor feature.

[The Boz]

Never gonna happen, thank god!

[Goose]

No: All you will see is the Elo bell-curve invert into the haves, and the have-nots …

It was, and would be again, soul crushingly bad.

[FupDup]

Sneaky B, on 06 September 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

1. Players play smarter

Hiding in a corner and not torso twisting (twisting results in higher damage to your mech overall, and therefore higher repair bills) =/= smart play.

Sneaky B, on 06 September 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

2. You will see less assault mechs and more medium mechs

...Until people store up enough spacebucks to grab something larger. Then we end up right where we started.

Sneaky B, on 06 September 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

3. Players have to decide if they'll risk putting on advanced equipment/upgrades

That only applies to space poors. People with pocket change won't have to worry about that.

Sneaky B, on 06 September 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

4. There's incentive to conquer planets for resources

We don't need RnR to make C-Bills desirable to pursue, especially after the income nerf.

Sneaky B, on 06 September 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

5. role warfare

Killing stuff would still make the most money, and therefore people would use the mechs that are best at killing things (within their budget).

Edited by FupDup, 06 September 2013 - 05:34 PM.

[The Black Knight]

Oh, a Ghost Knight (Sam)! Repair and rearm would be nice, I think a nerf would be required, in regards to how it was. But the current meta of bring the biggest mech you have would fade away if they were expensive to fix. Community warfare would benefit from R&R because it would kind of force CW to stick to a more lore based assaults are rare mediums and lights are more common

[D1al T0ne]

It has worked perfectly well in World of Tanks for several years now, but for some weird reason this community is entirely too whiney for it.

If done correctly, it has a lot of upsides. The first of which would be making medium mechs much more economical to have on the battlefield due to cost effectiveness.

[ManDaisy]

Goose, on 06 September 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

No: All you will see is the Elo bell-curve invert into the haves, and the have-nots …

It was, and would be again, soul crushingly bad.

Yes, as in those that have skill, and those that haven't any skills... or good computers for that part.

[RamsoPanzer]

In my opinion, bringing this back would end in rich people having the advantage. At the moment, for being a Free2Play game, its pretty nice balance and not close to a Pay2Win. Let it continue this way, let the skill make the kills.

Edited by RamsoPanzer, 06 September 2013 - 05:41 PM.

[The Boz]

D1al T0ne, on 06 September 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

It has worked perfectly well in World of Tanks for several years now, but for some weird reason this community is entirely too whiney for it.

If done correctly, it has a lot of upsides. The first of which would be making medium mechs much more economical to have on the battlefield due to cost effectiveness.

This is one of those changes that will generate mass exodus of players. "Congratulations, you have mastered the Atlas, Stalker and Highlander! Good luck making them pay for themselves in a match!"
Mass. Exodus.

[Sneaky B]

Then there's the exodus from mediums to heavies and assaults. As I recall, MWO was envisioned as a mechwarrior game that differentiates itself from its predecessors in that it made sense to play mediums.

[Naja]

ManDaisy, on 06 September 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

Yes, as in those that have skill, and those that haven't any skills... or good computers for that part.

Or more realistically, those who have a stockpile of resources to absorb the cost of RnR, and those who don't.

[SweetJackal]

The problem with Repair and Rearm is that it was used as a means to balance In Match Performance with Out Of Match Economics to the point that the desired design was to have tricked out mechs actually cost you ingame currency to field, you'd be at a loss for putting an XL Engine Assault with UAC/5s and ER LLs out to field and getting focus fired.

The Rearm portion of that also put a tax on Ballistic weapons by having ammo something that was consumable. Using an ammo based mech would slow your C-Bill gain, in addition to Ballistic weapons being heavy on tonnage and crit space, in addition to Neutral Heat builds not existing and AC weapons running much hotter as a result, in addition to the weapon being limited in potential damage by the ammo, in addition to spending tons on that ammo and finally in addition to the risk of ammo explosions.

So all of that, or you can run Energy Weapons.

Repair and Rearm was a statement that certain weight classes and equipment was just flat out more powerful and as such they will cost more. It was a statement that running the most powerful options would cost you so you would need a C-Bill bank to start running your best mechs. Which means you also build 'less powerful' mechs that you grind C-Bills in. Which means that there are matches that end up being those "Powerful Mechs" facing down against people in "Grinding Mechs." Don't say it won't happen because we still have Stock Mechs facing Customized ones.

So, all of this starts a cycle that mimics World Of Tanks design to promote premium time. Why? Well if you paid for Premium time and bought a Hero Mech that was running the best then your boost to income would be more than enough to pay for your Repair and Rearm. Even in the worst possible matches your boosts would keep you in the black.

So a player running a Paywall Locked Mech with a C-Bill boost with Premium time would be in "Powerful Mech" mode nearly all of the time or all of the time while the general populace would be forced by economics to spend time fielding less powerful but cheaper designs. So the Premium Members would have an advantage against other players more often than not.

And that, my fellow Mechwarriors, is paying for an advantage. It's why WoT is a devious game designed from the ground up to push Premium Time down your throat so you could 'stay competitive' 100% of the time.

Edit:

I voted "No, Never" and would have picked "The Stars Shall Die And Plunge The Universe Into Darkness Before I Support Repair And Rearm In It's Past Design." Having the option to express the level of repulsion I have to the Repair and Rearm concept would have been nice.

On a more serious note, if you want Mediums to be fielded more often than Heavies and Assaults and you want Role Warfare to exist then you create an in game environment where Mediums have as much of an impact as a Heavy or an Assault in a different way.

If you want Role Warfare to exist then you provide the means for it to exist. You promote the communication between teammates for the match as well as giving viable options that do not punish the player every match to help the team.

Yes, I am talking about the Consumable Modules. UAV, Air and Arty strikes should not be one time use and paid for every time they are used as they help in a team environment. Coolant flush is a more selfish choice that breaks the design behind the heat scale and just shouldn't exist as it's the DHS problem again, either you balance heat considering it and force everyone to use it or you don't consider it and allow it's use to be too powerful. Or you make Coolant Flush not effective at all.

But this is all for another post and another topic.

Edited by SuckyJack, 06 September 2013 - 06:24 PM.

[Flying Blind]

+1 to sucky jack for the best argument against R&R I have yet heard. Still not on your side, but I see your point as being valid.
Doesn't really matter though, it won't be coming back.

[D1al T0ne]

SuckyJack, on 06 September 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

So, all of this starts a cycle that mimics World Of Tanks design to promote premium time. Why? Well if you paid for Premium time and bought a Hero Mech that was running the best then your boost to income would be more than enough to pay for your Repair and Rearm. Even in the worst possible matches your boosts would keep you in the black.

So a player running a Paywall Locked Mech with a C-Bill boost with Premium time would be in "Powerful Mech" mode nearly all of the time or all of the time while the general populace would be forced by economics to spend time fielding less powerful but cheaper designs. So the Premium Members would have an advantage against other players more often than not.

Funny that you consider this some sort of "problem". It has been working absolutely fantastically in the highest grossing F2P game in the entire world.

If you want an assault mech experience, then you need to buck up assault mech premium account. Sounds perfectly fair to me. There won't be much of a game left anymore if everyone walks around with their hands out begging for everything for free.

It's an absolute fact that making the premium option and premium mechs more desirable to play and own generates vastly more revenue than than this "it should all be fair for everyone with ponies!" attitude. No matter how many rivers of tears that this community cries otherwise.

Oh, and I can cite this:http://www.gamesindu...-digit-millions

[FupDup]

D1al T0ne, on 06 September 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

Funny that you consider this some sort of "problem". It has been working absolutely fantastically in the highest grossing F2P game in the entire world.

If you want an assault mech experience, then you need to buck up assault mech premium account. Sounds perfectly fair to me. There won't be much of a game left anymore if everyone walks around with their hands out begging for everything for free.

It's an absolute fact that making the premium option and premium mechs more desirable to play and own generates vastly more revenue than than this "it should all be fair for everyone with ponies!" attitude. No matter how many rivers of tears that this community cries otherwise.

Oh, and I can cite this:http://www.gamesindu...-digit-millions

Just because it makes the most money doesn't mean it's the best model for a video game.

[SweetJackal]

Flying Blind, on 06 September 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

+1 to sucky jack for the best argument against R&R I have yet heard. Still not on your side, but I see your point as being valid.
Doesn't really matter though, it won't be coming back.

Back in the closed Beta when Repair And Rearm was being shaped I had started about 5 posts on this topic. All of this was a "Here is the Pitfalls of even having Repair And Rearm, if you avoid these it can be a good system." Well we all know what they did with Repair and Rearm, I dropped the game the moment that the patch of "Our Design will let you lose C-Bills in a bad loss" came around.

I am glad to see it gone and I do not trust or have the faith in PGI or IGP to put it back in in a manner that would be a positive system for the game. They have already proven that they are flirting on the wrong side of P2W with Hero Mechs being unique variants (and as such the best 3 UAC/5 build is on a Hero Mech) and Consumables in general. I had missed being able to buy the Founders pack by a day, my finances were too tight at the time and now I have been glad that I had passed. If I get the Phoenix Package and Saber Reinforcement it will likely be the last day they have it on sale so I can be sure that the direction of the development of the game will be something I will continue to play.

The problem with Repair and Rearm is that the players that do not have a problem with RnR or like it will likely play without it being in the game. Those that do have a problem with it will likely not play the game with it in the game, or vote with their wallet and not support the game.

[SweetJackal]

D1al T0ne, on 06 September 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

Funny that you consider this some sort of "problem". It has been working absolutely fantastically in the highest grossing F2P game in the entire world.

If you want an assault mech experience, then you need to buck up assault mech premium account. Sounds perfectly fair to me. There won't be much of a game left anymore if everyone walks around with their hands out begging for everything for free.

It's an absolute fact that making the premium option and premium mechs more desirable to play and own generates vastly more revenue than than this "it should all be fair for everyone with ponies!" attitude. No matter how many rivers of tears that this community cries otherwise.

Oh, and I can cite this:http://www.gamesindu...-digit-millions

And if you want to compare incomes, mobile gaming has been making millions on Cow Clicker games like Farmville that are designed to separate you from your money rather than providing an enjoyable experience first.

WoT falls into the same category, from the ground up it was built as a Business Model first and a Video Game second. It makes the most money as everything took a back seat to the ability to generate revenue. Not saying that the game isn't an enjoyable experience but "making a fun game" was a secondary objective and choices have only been made toward that when doing otherwise would have cost them more money in lost players than they would have made in revenue generated. Gold Ammo is a pretty good example of that.

And it shouldn't surprise you that trying to copy WoT's design will not yield WoT's success. WoT already has a substantial chunk of the consumer base that do not have a problem with that design and building to it's same design is to try to pry that consumer base out of WoT's hands, a game that they are already invested in.

WoT, as a business is one of the best run. But it is far from the best game, plagued with imbalances that are in by design for the purposes of revenue.

For Mechwarrior Online I want a Game First and a Business Model Second. I only support Free To Play games if I enjoy them and have fun, I do not support those games to be allowed to have fun or have more fun.