426 replies to this topic

[Rasc4l]

Asmudius Heng, on 12 July 2014 - 02:49 AM, said:

The module change was PGIs chance to start redefining role warfare in this game where that pillar has yet to really have any meaning at all.

Instead we get a cgance deliberatly designed to make people spend more XP and cbills on the worthless weapons modules.

This is HORRIBLY dissapointing PGI.

By making this a generic, dull, uninspired time sink you have crapped on any chances of making a set of role warfare enhancers.

You already had roles for modules, sensor types, support types etc weapons as well ... instead of using ROLES to define modules you are basically forcing people to spend for the weapons thats it.

Here this is how you redesign modules.

Have weapons slots
Have mech slots
Have support slots
Have sensor slots

Now every module is tagged with one of those catagories including consumables. example:

Coolshot -> weapons
UAV -> Sensor
Artillery -> support

Now you have 4 basic roles in modules.
-Ones that enhance your mech performance (hill climb, fall damage etc)
-Ones that enhance your sensors (Seismic, target retention etc)
-Ones that provide support to your team(capture accel, this one might need more modules released for it)
-And of course weapons based modules

Now apply these VERY differently depending on the mech. Lets take a look at a few.

1. Raven: Your sensor mech, this one might have three Sensor modules, one support module, and one mech module - thats right NO WEAPONS module they do not ALL have to have every type.

2. Jenner: A light with a different role might have: two weapons modules, one sensor module, 2 mech modules - This mech can modify its performance and its weapons being the striker mech but it cannot do artillery

3. Catapult: 2 sensor modules, 2 support modules, 1 weapons module - This mech might not be able to modify its performance much but it can boost its LRMs, get decent sensor help, and can add artillery and more being a support mech

4. Victor, lets take a look at a meta mech - 2 mech modules, 1 sensor module, 2 weapons modules - Inhibits it bringing arty but it has good weapons and can enhance the machine itself with some sensor backup

5. DDC Atlas A command mech - 2 sensor modules, 2 support modules, 1 mech module - All about sensors, supporting and something to help boost the machine itself but stops it being a weapons enhancer.

Now weapons modules need to be worth a damn for this to really work and these are just rough ideas but I really hope PGI can see that this would help balance, this would help role warfare, this would get them to sell more weapons modules because they are there and people WILL fill them.

What you propose PGI is horrific and a waste of time and an obvious cbill/xp sink.

QFT.

[RedAnxiety]

Can we get a map sub-forum to discuss all the community ideas? No need to sift through all the balance "suggestions" to give map feedback.

[Antonius Prime]

Really appreciate the VLOGs.

Glad to hear about what you are doing. Agree with most of it.

I disagree with the Weapon Module thing. If they were more useful, then sure. They just aren't all that good. Do you plan to redesign them? Basic problem is that you gain heat all the time, but you do not always benefit from the extra range.That, and the extra range is sooooo small. I would equip them if it were only the range increase.

Maybe with Clan weapons out, you could increase the range it gives. The problem there is that, if you stick with the same format, Clan modules would give large range too. They don't really need more range.

Honestly, I would just prefer to see them do something more creative than simply + Range, + Heat. Maybe some modules could reduce heat very slightly (without affecting range). Maybe PPC could extend the ECM cancel duration. Maybe SRM could increase the screen shake slightly. Maybe UAC could decrease the jam rate. Maybe AC could increase the crit chance. Maybe LBX could tighten the spread by a tiny bit. There are plenty of ways to get creative with it.

The point is, though, maybe allow people, through modules, to customize how they want to run their mech and give it some personality. That would make people want to equip them. As it stands right now, most people (that I am aware of) don't want the always heat for occasionally useful range. If you dropped the heat, then they would still be vanilla, "gotta grind out that, too," in that there is no reason to choose one over another. It would be just, "do you use that weapon? Then you neeeeed that module." Creativity and options would make the player ask, "do I want my mech to do more of this or more of that? Hmmmm. Choices!"

[Odanan]

CHH Badkarma, on 11 July 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

Still waiting for the dagger star that was hinted at.

Me too.
That's not hard that hard to do, you know...

[Sereglach]

Regardless, this was an awesome Dev.Vlog and I look forward to seeing many more updates in the future. The more in-depth look at the upcoming module and jump jet changes was awesome. I also greatly look forward to seeing these new maps and the upcoming Community Warfare releases.

Thank you, PGI, or keeping up this amazing trend of increased communication volume and quality. Keep at it . . . keep those Dev.Vlogs and Command Chair posts coming!

Now, I said it last vlog and will keep bringing it up (because I'm a pyro). When will we be seeing those flamer changes that were promised at the beginning of the year before we even got a Firestarter? Please give this poor weapon the love and attention it deserves.

[Hayato1983]

Really hope it lasts more than 2, 3 or 5 years since it hasnt been fully fleshed out, heck tactics its not even out of the beta yet. Keep it up guys!

[Odanan]

Antonius Prime, on 12 July 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Honestly, I would just prefer to see them do something more creative than simply + Range, + Heat. Maybe some modules could reduce heat very slightly (without affecting range). Maybe PPC could extend the ECM cancel duration. Maybe SRM could increase the screen shake slightly. Maybe UAC could decrease the jam rate. Maybe AC could increase the crit chance. Maybe LBX could tighten the spread by a tiny bit. There are plenty of ways to get creative with it.

The point is, though, maybe allow people, through modules, to customize how they want to run their mech and give it some personality. That would make people want to equip them. As it stands right now, most people (that I am aware of) don't want the always heat for occasionally useful range. If you dropped the heat, then they would still be vanilla, "gotta grind out that, too," in that there is no reason to choose one over another. It would be just, "do you use that weapon? Then you neeeeed that module." Creativity and options would make the player ask, "do I want my mech to do more of this or more of that? Hmmmm. Choices!"

This. ^

What a weapon module could increase:
- range
- speed of the project (PPCs, ballistics, missiles)
- tighten of the spread (LBX, LRMs, SRMs)
- speed of the lock (SSRMs and LRMs)
- maneuverability of the missiles
- decrease the duration of the beam (lasers)
- decrease of the heat
- rate of fire
- duration of the EMP effect (PPCs)
- increase the heat generated (Flamers)
etc.

But please add a different drawback instead of just extra heat. Extra heat sucks.

Of course these modules should be designed in a general way (not for a weapon specifically), to do not incentive more boating.

BTW, consumables are the worst thing in this game. Giving "extra" module slots for them is bad.

Edited by Odanan, 12 July 2014 - 09:17 AM.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

Hmmm. After sleeping a bit over it. Yes I see a problem.

What I use most now is:
1. Advanced Zoom.
2. Radar deprivation
3. Advanced Target decay.

What can I use now?

Consumabel: Airstrike, Artillery
Mech: Advanced Zoom
Weapon: .....? Advanced range for weapons to get more heat Problem as I already have? AMS? HMMMMmmmm

We will see much more Artis and Airstrikes when u can t fill those slots with sensor increasments. Is that what u realy want?

[HiredGun]

Is it just me, or does the damage curve really make sense for LRM minimum range? Having damage start at 180 meters works because the warhead does not activate before that range as a safety feature (like modern day torpedoes). Clan LRMs not having a minimum range just means that the missiles are armed as they leave the missile tube (those crazy ********). If you want to limit this for balance, then just have a longer (than 0) minimum range but full damage when it arms. Missiles should either do no damage or full damage, there is no middle ground.

[HiredGun]

Marc von der Heide, on 12 July 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

Hmmm. After sleeping a bit over it. Yes I see a problem.

What I use most now is:
1. Advanced Zoom.
2. Radar deprivation
3. Advanced Target decay.

What can I use now?

Consumabel: Airstrike, Artillery
Mech: Advanced Zoom
Weapon: .....? Advanced range for weapons to get more heat Problem as I already have? AMS? HMMMMmmmm

We will see much more Artis and Airstrikes when u can t fill those slots with sensor increasments. Is that what u realy want?

I think this is another "PGI" solution to limiting the advantage of experienced players over new players and making it more new player friendly. Having all 3 of those modules gave you a significant advantage over newer players, but only having 1 reduces that advantage significantly. Weapon modules have an advantage but at a associated cost (heat), where as the mech modules do not. So forcing players to use their module slots for weapon modules will not have as much of an impact as the current system.

The addition of consumable modules is nice that they no longer us up your primary module slots, but these are available from square one, and since everyone can get them, no ones gets an overall advantage from them.

[Lomak]

Asmudius Heng, on 12 July 2014 - 02:49 AM, said:

Here this is how you redesign modules. Have weapons slots Have mech slots Have support slots Have sensor slots Now every module is tagged with one of those catagories including consumables. example: Coolshot -> weapons UAV -> Sensor Artillery -> support

Now you have 4 basic roles in modules. -
Ones that enhance your mech performance (hill climb, fall damage etc) -
Ones that enhance your sensors (Seismic, target retention etc) -
Ones that provide support to your team(capture accel, this one might need more modules released for it) -And of course weapons based modules

Now apply these VERY differently depending on the mech. Lets take a look at a few.
1. Raven: Your sensor mech, this one might have three Sensor modules, one support module, and one mech module - thats right NO WEAPONS module they do not ALL have to have every type.

2. Jenner: A light with a different role might have: two weapons modules, one sensor module, 2 mech modules - This mech can modify its performance and its weapons being the striker mech but it cannot do artillery

3. Catapult: 2 sensor modules, 2 support modules, 1 weapons module - This mech might not be able to modify its performance much but it can boost its LRMs, get decent sensor help, and can add artillery and more being a support mech

4. Victor, lets take a look at a meta mech - 2 mech modules, 1 sensor module, 2 weapons modules - Inhibits it bringing arty but it has good weapons and can enhance the machine itself with some sensor backup

5. DDC Atlas A command mech - 2 sensor modules, 2 support modules, 1 mech module - All about sensors, supporting and something to help boost the machine itself but stops it being a weapons enhancer.

Now weapons modules need to be worth a damn for this to really work and these are just rough ideas but I really hope PGI can see that this would help balance, this would help role warfare, this would get them to sell more weapons modules because they are there and people WILL fill them. What you propose PGI is horrific and a waste of time and an obvious cbill/xp sink.

This...WANT IT

Edited by Lomak, 12 July 2014 - 10:15 AM.

[Cimarb]

HiredGun, on 12 July 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

Is it just me, or does the damage curve really make sense for LRM minimum range? Having damage start at 180 meters works because the warhead does not activate before that range as a safety feature (like modern day torpedoes). Clan LRMs not having a minimum range just means that the missiles are armed as they leave the missile tube (those crazy ********). If you want to limit this for balance, then just have a longer (than 0) minimum range but full damage when it arms. Missiles should either do no damage or full damage, there is no middle ground.

Just look at it as the missiles arming randomly up to 180m. At 90m, roughly 30% of them are armed. They quickly start arming after that, and are all armed by 180m.

[Cavendish]

Alistair Winter, on 12 July 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

Walking under water would be cool. Might be a problem with realism when a mech is running 150 kph through water, as if it was air.

No problem, flag the underwater part of the map as the highest possible hill climb angle so that it slows down mechs /shrug.

[process]

+1 @mech-specific module slots. And more mech quirks in general!

Edited by process, 12 July 2014 - 10:41 AM.

[MightyMeatShield]

My 2 cents:

- 1 mech module? really? and mastering a mech adds an extra WEAPON module? I much preferred the current system where you need to weigh the pros and cons of which module(s) to take (e.g. do I want to go heavy support with arty/airstrike or UAV, or am I going to bring my advanced zoom and radar deprivation). Now there will be no excuse to not bring arty AND airstrike, which in my opinion has not really bettered game play since it was introduced.

- OK so CW module 1 lets us create units/factions in the game and module 2 is for combat? That mean we can actually fight over territory? Russ' explanation didn't quite get into it enough and I don't know about everyone else, but I though CW was more about fighting over territory and pushing fronts etc more than creating units/factions in game.

Anyway, glad to see there's some progress forward on all fronts and hopefully this game lasts longer than the next couple of years and into the 6+ realm Russ was mentioning.

[p4r4g0n]

Generally good news. Any reservations I have on modules and jump jet heat have either already been covered or needs to be seen in action before any meaningful comment can be made.

However, I am in favour of restrictions on the consumable slots to limit one slot to offensive consumables and the other to non-offensive consumables to cut back on arty / air strike spam. The absence of such a restriction severely penalizes those who don't have much c-bills to spare i.e new players and free players (who aren't able to generate huge c-bill surpluses from their matches).

Other than that, happy with the update especially definitive information on CW and based on what you did with the clan mechs I am eagerly looking forward to both CW modules.

Keep up the good work and try to get some sleep ... you guys look exhausted.

[Motroid]

Moohlord, on 12 July 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

To be honest, I am more than disapointed. All the new stuff sounds cool but the designers are not able to clean up this big pile of bullcrap called "mechlab".
I would rather like to see a sort function for all the equipable parts. Especially finding the right ammo type is way more annoying that it has to be. No filter and the ammo types are not even arranged in a specific order.

Furthermore if I search a specific Module or engine in one of my mechs, I have to search all my mechs. But not by hovering the mouse over it - nooo, I have to click and then click on another button. Then I have to select a completely different menu to switch out the parts if i finally found the ones I was searching for because making changes from this "show Mech" screen would be too easy.


What is the reason you can create Clan mechs, new gameplay elements, fancy weekly offerings but there is nobody in your whole company that gives a damn shite about proper handling?

Remember Dune 2 or the first Warcraft? You could not select more than one unit at a time. Then, you had to hold SHIFT to draw a box to select 4 units at the same time. The same thing goes with this game . Playing it is actually fun but controlling it is 4 times as annoying as it should - and has to be.

THESE are the points a responsible developer should prioritize over everything else. Cool game but there is no reason for the developers to be proud at this point.

What you describe here is tedious but intended game design. Free to play game design. Yeah, the mechlabs sturdiness and un-usability is game design. They don't want you to find your one and only XL345 engine or that one target decay module easily. They want you to actually buy a second one and another XL engine. They want you to keep as many mechs as possible as powerful as possible ready to go in a click. This is called "time-sink" and comes in many forms. One form is the "bad" mechlab. Ever asked yourself why the mechlab is not accessible from private lobby? Same reason. Time sink. You still can choose to "sink" the time by clicking many buttons to switch engines and modules or grind out duplicates. This is nothing new in F2P games. This is how it works. You just have to see the big picture here. I don't say I like it but I see the reasoning behind the "bad" mechlab.

[pesco]

Edited by pesco, 12 July 2014 - 11:37 AM.

[Koniks]

Why not make the module slots configurable by players?

Set a max of 4 for a pre-mastery mech. Mastery would add a 5th that could also be chosen by the player. Set a cap for each type of module slot. Make players select their module types at purchase. If they want to change their module types after purchase, there'd be a C-Bill cost.

So something like:
2 consumable slots max.
3 weapon slots max.
3 mech slots max.

Maybe make it mandatory to have at least 1 slot of each type.

[Rebas Kradd]

Motroid, on 12 July 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

What you describe here is tedious but intended game design. Free to play game design. Yeah, the mechlabs sturdiness and un-usability is game design. They don't want you to find your one and only XL345 engine or that one target decay module easily. They want you to actually buy a second one and another XL engine. They want you to keep as many mechs as possible as powerful as possible ready to go in a click. This is called "time-sink" and comes in many forms. One form is the "bad" mechlab. Ever asked yourself why the mechlab is not accessible from private lobby? Same reason. Time sink. You still can choose to "sink" the time by clicking many buttons to switch engines and modules or grind out duplicates. This is nothing new in F2P games. This is how it works. You just have to see the big picture here. I don't say I like it but I see the reasoning behind the "bad" mechlab.

F2P philosophy is still far from cemented, and I feel that this particular aspect of it is about to be proven wrong. MWO is LOSING money with this UI, because it's losing people. Committed folks will click as much as necessary. Uncommitted folks, however, will simply be lost.