34 replies to this topic

[Redshift2k5]

We have no idea how much R&R will cost or how much it will affect Endosteel, DHS, etc. A bit premature at this point, so I can only offer advice based on how the game currently functions.

IF/when R&R returns, and if/when it affects Endosteel beyond the initial install cost, then we'll talk.

[Koniving]

SethAbercromby, on 13 July 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

Once R&R makes a comeback (and that is not if because the developers have mentioned that it will return sooner or later at some point after (or maybe together with) CW), having 'Mechs that don't run on expensive upgrades will be vital to actually get more money out of a match than you need to invest into repairing your 'Mech.

While that makes perfect sense, you must remember that many things that PGI has a track record for doing makes no sense. So while I'd agree with that's how it should be done, I have to tilt my head to Redshift, because let's face it... intelligent decisions are not PGI's strongpoint and the only thing that forces them to make any decisions or act at all is seeing how bad something is for the experience.

In the past, Endo was much more expensive than Ferro, Ferro more expensive than standard armor, and endo was far more expensive than standard structure (though I believe standard structure was more expensive to repair than any armor).

An XL engine was typically the greater expense, however, except for those smart enough to use a C.A.S.E. on each side to significantly reduce the cost of repairs when part of the engine gets damaged; otherwise the whole engine counts as damaged and needs a full repair instead of a partial repair.

If/when it comes back, we'll see. However I highly suspect nothing short of a complete overhaul to the heat system will ever save SHS, which should have the same alpha potential at any one instant as DHS, but a slower cooldown period in exchange for both being cheaper to replace and much more difficult to damage (by having fewer slots). In an overtime fight a DHS mech will have much more thermal endurance, but in a single burst of firepower the SHS and DHS mechs should be equal.
---
But given your mention of a meta light mech... meta light mechs at the time usually had a repair cost in the 38,000 to 76,000 range complete with rearming 5 tons of LRM ammo before the free reloads. These designs were actually more cost-worthy than the current meta designs, so they would likely be cheaper due to their lack of dependency on ammunition.

But a meta assault like a Victor with an XL engine? That's a guaranteed bankruptcy if we used what the standards were in closed and early open beta. Similar Awesomes would exceed over 300,000 in repair bills with endo, XL 385, 2 ER PPCs and several medium lasers with some AMS and AMS ammo and a ton of streak ammo.

Edited by Koniving, 13 July 2014 - 11:14 AM.

[Modo44]

As always, missing the point about R&R. Literally any solution will hurt new players while being exploitable by veterans as part of a metagame. R&R is fluff, not as a balancing tool.

[Void Angel]

SethAbercromby, on 13 July 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

Once R&R makes a comeback (and that is not if because the developers have mentioned that it will return sooner or later at some point after (or maybe together with) CW), having 'Mechs that don't run on expensive upgrades will be vital to actually get more money out of a match than you need to invest into repairing your 'Mech. Endo Steel will become super expensive to maintain which will give Ferro actual use as it will be much less expensive. DHS will also become much more expensive then SHS. The complete package could push something like a Meta Light 'Mech into the realm of where using it in random battles is almost a guaranteed C-Bill loss.

The devs have mentioned a cost in connection with Community Warfare - but an individual repair and rearm cost, like in the Bad Old Days, is unlikely.

[Koniving]

That reminds me. I failed to introduce myself here 'cause the opening message left me more confused than not.

Many have already covered welcomes and tips, but just in case if you didn't feel welcomed enough, then welcome! I'm Koniving.

Brandon, I love your ideas and your reasoning.

My only issue is that this game doesn't always comply with logic and reasoning; it's true poptarts are easy things to kill, but the crucial thing going for them is information. If you think they will appear here, and they pop up there, you are already hit and you can't retaliate. This makes them super effective against slower targets like assault mechs and some heavies.

The mentality congregated by the use of LRMs as a suppressive weapon is that all mechs must group up and stay in cover.

Insert the poptart; a disgusting abomination that perfectly counters the everyone huddle into a ball issue. Combine 3 pieces LRMs with 2 pieces escort and 2 pieces pestilence and 2 pieces bullet-stoppers with 3 pieces poptart and what you have is slaughter in a cup.

It's a nasty issue.

That said I'm glad there are people that don't care and prefer other styles of play. Feel free to add me any time.

Here's my own opinion on poptarts; as you can see when one appears it'll be pointed out.

WHAM! Dead.

I do agree with Red that you should get DHS as quickly as possible; the game is virtually impossible to play on some maps without it.

[Koniving]

Modo44, on 13 July 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

As always, missing the point about R&R. Literally any solution will hurt new players while being exploitable by veterans as part of a metagame. R&R is fluff, not as a balancing tool.

Easy solutions.
1) Disable for new players.
2) Use trial mechs in between.
3) Limit R&R to Community War elements: "faction gameplay" and "Mercenaries." It's been explicitly said by Russ multiple times that "Pub" or "public" matches are random matches for casual gamers. The upcoming Faction play of Community Warfare will have Faction versus Faction, IS versus Clan, Steiner versus Liao, etc., etc., etc.

Casual gamers and new players don't care. They have public matches to play and learn in. Faction and Merc unit play on the other hand since they are being treated as 'a whole different game'...makes a lot more sense to have R&R there. New players completely unaffected.

Could even go so far as to slap it on Merc units only, after all "Merc Units will be able to make more money but will have more costs." Gee.. What's that sound like? It'd also fit partway with fluff as well, as a faction member is part of an army and said army can provide for you (within reason). But a merc? Think your company will cover your expenses? Pfft!

And what new player would ever start in a merc unit right off the bat, with a 216 million cbill entry fee (to acquire a dropship) and 12 player requirement to start a merc unit? So it won't hurt new players at all if implemented with some logic and reasoning.

[Modo44]

You keep the incorrect assumption that there is a way to not have a metagame. You can make the system as elaborate/segregated as you like, and people will still learn to exploit that. Until you arrive at a "solution" which forces people into roles so hard, it becomes unplayable.

[Redshift2k5]

C'mon guys, getting up to our necks in metagame talk or R&R is derailing the OP's thread. Lots of other places to discuss.

[Corbenik]

Welcome

[Hamish McPiton]

Doesn't matter where you post your intro - you'll be in good hands here. So many new players don't get in the forums and ask questions or just read everything going on in-game. I've only been here a couple of months and really enjoying it. Is it perfect - no, but what free to play game will be? Feel free to friend me or anyone you see here or play with your friend - it's always better with friends. Even though sometimes you have a losing streak with some of them, at least you have someone to gripe to after the game.
Another thing - if your friend in the Awesome keeps getting nuked I'm sorry if I'm doing it - I target Awesomes like I do an Atlas or Dire Wolf - priority target. Same thing happens to me in my Jagers - ironically enough, often by Awesomes.

[luxebo]

Modo44, on 13 July 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

You keep the incorrect assumption that there is a way to not have a metagame. You can make the system as elaborate/segregated as you like, and people will still learn to exploit that. Until you arrive at a "solution" which forces people into roles so hard, it becomes unplayable.

Although as Redshift has said that it's derailing the thread a bit, I'm gonna say that I'd agree with Kon on this situation. There should generally be a CW type gamemode with R&R and all the lore stuff, while there should be a Casual or Instant Action mode that newer and casual players can hop in and pretty much would be similar to how the game is right now. That should be how the game works when CW hits, so both newer and veterans enjoy the game.

[Modo44]

luxebo, on 13 July 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

There should generally be a CW type gamemode with R&R and all the lore stuff, while there should be a Casual or Instant Action mode that newer and casual players can hop in and pretty much would be similar to how the game is right now. That should be how the game works when CW hits, so both newer and veterans enjoy the game.

Yeah, except Koniving's idea is not "bonus here, cheaper/more expensive stuff there" (i.e. fluff), but "**** meta" (i.e. hard balancing against whatever slight the current competitive setup is perceived as). It will either not work (competitive players do not care how much Cbills they make), or it will (say good bye to the competitive scene, welcome strict, boring role warfare).

[SethAbercromby]

Modo44, on 13 July 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

Yeah, except Koniving's idea is not "bonus here, cheaper/more expensive stuff there" (i.e. fluff), but "**** meta" (i.e. hard balancing against whatever slight the current competitive setup is perceived as). It will either not work (competitive players do not care how much Cbills they make), or it will (say good bye to the competitive scene, welcome strict, boring role warfare).

I don't see how abusing the Meta is in any way competetive. Role Warfare, where everyone has to specialize into something that benefits the team as a whole rather then them as a person, is exactly the kind of Meta everyone here would love to see.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 13 July 2014 - 09:00 PM.

[BrandonKF]

I appreciate those who are concerned about my original post. If I may, however, I did ask for opinions. And I am getting them in spades.

The outstanding nature of the discussion being presented here is never detracting from my own thread.

In truth, I appreciate all of these comments. Even among those who disagree with one another. I haven't seen cordiality like this in awhile. Very little here that I could say is intended as an insult or a barb against another man or woman, and that speaks very highly of all concerned. It is refreshing.

So, to all those who have kindly welcomed me, thank you very much.

To all those who felt resolved in keeping things 'on track', thank you very much.

I might just let this thread keep going more as a discussion as it suits everyone's feelings on matters.

However, if I may, I'm familiar with the term 'meta', and I believe that the metas that are created are usually something that come and go as things are tweaked, changed, and tweaked again. Personal tastes change.

The idea of staying in a big bungling bundle of bada** Mechs to hold off LRMs is a common technique, I'm sure, but I feel that it is limited. A large column of clumped Mechs will box each other in and narrow down each other's firing lanes, creating bottlenecks and friendly fire galore.

Employing armor tactics, bounding overwatch and line formations might be advisable if you're going to think of your Mechs as tanks.

Naturally, communication sounds like it's exceptionally important, but I'm curious whether the entire Team of 12 members in a game can communicate between one another through this Teamspeak uplink, or if it is limited between the 4-man lances. If it is the former, you've got a very mean way to identify targets, threats, and avoid being flanked. If it is limited to the 4-man lance in the latter case, then each lance is individually responsible for its own members and there is a lot less communication to assist each other when things go south. In which case, visual LOS should help to key said members into what's going on, and also allow them to flex on opponents that are giving their buddies a hard time.

Again, speaking entirely from my studies and my experience, not from actual play of MWO.

As for the double heat sinks, I fully understand and appreciate the tip.

Insofar as role warfare, I think that individual players should be able to freely choose their own designs. It shouldn't be one size fits all, but each role should be made distinctive.

After reviewing some of the games that my friend has played in his Awesome, I will say he suffers, not from being too fast, but instead from being too slow. Which I don't blame him for. If I thought of an Awesome as awesome, I would say it is definitely going to be a nasty customer. Instead, as he points out:

http://www.nogutsnog...tach=1630;image

-Brandon F.

[SethAbercromby]

Unfortunately, there is no dedicated integrated system that allows for team-wide communication. There are a number of TeamSpeak servers people use to meet up on (you'll usually find me on the Comstar NA server if I'm in the mood for some robot stomping). People have urged PGI to implement such a system but they've stated that due to the popularity of thrid party producs, the priority for that is very low.

So yeah, outside of your VOIP premade, you'll have to stay in contact with the rest of your team either through pure-visual coordination or short text chat messages which makes the thing a lot more difficult, especially in solo-que PUGs. So while all those tactics you proposed are valid in some regard, executing them properly will be quite difficult in normal random battles. But if it does offer some relieve, your enemy team will often suffer from the same problems.

But yes, the key to a strategic victory would be 4-man Lance operations seamlessly inegrated into 12-man company coordination. Each lanc need to take a certain role and watch out for its own members, but no Lance can survive on its own so it's important to be able to cover each other's backs. Try to be a positive encuragement and maybe do the first step in communication. People willing to assist in coordinated efforts will usually answer.