150 replies to this topic

[Sahrang]

Escef, on 17 July 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Yes, some people do play that way.

yes, some people like to fire missiles during an entire game on targets that they will never see. the way of cowardice I think

[Escef]

Sahrang, on 17 July 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

yes, some people like to fire missiles during an entire game on targets that they will never see. the way of cowardice I think

Some say cowardice, others say prudence. Why open yourself up to return fire if you don't need to?

[countTZT]

I guess the best is the Stalker.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...85ff6905719bec8

70 lrms

2160 ammo (31 shots)

200 XL engine means you barely move, but you dont want to charge.

You got your tag and nothing else.

It's funny

[DarkonFullPower]

Wintersdark, on 13 July 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Gah. No.

The Warhawk is grossly limited by Clan LRM's, which are flat-out bad compared to IS LRM's. The staggered firing allows MANY LRM's to be destroyed even by a single AMS unit. Two or three and you literally do zero damage to a target in the open. And, look! ECM+3AMS kitfoxes abound. Welcome to being totally useless.

The Catapult is a decent LRM platform, but in no way one of the best.

You want:

IS mech (for LRM's firing in a single burst) and large tube count. HGN's are capable, AWS 8R's as well, STK-3H is king. Push through AMS, hit absurdly hard.


As skill levels improve, though, LRM's become ever less useful. You start to need fast LRM platforms, such as the Griffon, and to sacrifice tube count for ability to rapidly reposition in order to keep a good firing angle on your target.

You are literally the first and only person I've encountered that thinks IS LRM's > Clan LRM's. Even with a group of people with AMS, those Clan mech builds just seem to have unlimited ammo. Burned our entire group's AMS ammo dry have it still had more then enough left to pick off a couple of ours guys.

Clan LRM's, in practice, target the CT exclusively. IS's usual waste missiles every launch hitting the ground and/or important parts, but usualy get "something" in. Clan's do nothing for about 2-3 min, burning away AMS, and then suddenly core you out of nowhere in 5-10 second from one mech, even if you're behind cover and/or twisted 90 degrees to them. Both are weight ineffective, but the Clan's come out on top for killing power.

EDIT:

POOTYTANGASAUR, on 13 July 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

I am just gonna leave this here: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...abd0d8633302716

HEY! I think this was the guy!

Edited by DarkonFullPower, 17 July 2014 - 01:49 PM.

[Tesunie]

Sahrang, on 17 July 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

yes, some people like to fire missiles during an entire game on targets that they will never see. the way of cowardice I think

Correct to some extent and...

Escef, on 17 July 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

Some say cowardice, others say prudence. Why open yourself up to return fire if you don't need to?

Also correct to some extent.

As far as LRMs and how you use them, you should be taking probably as many indirect shots as you do direct fired locks. When you can/need to, indirect. When you can/need to, you should also be just as willing to go forwards and obtain your own locks.

LRMs have many uses. There is no one correct/right way of using said LRMs. However, the best way I find to use them is a blend. Move forwards once the enemy is found and support from close to the front lines, directly if possible to guarantee as many of your missiles hit their target as much as to make sure the target can be hit. A direct target lock is almost always going to be more effective than an indirect one.
If you are extremely damaged, then it is wisest/best to pull back (still try to remain close to your friends) and fire indirectly, as then it is best to continue to add damage to the match, rather than have your damage potential wasted by your death.

LRMs fired only indirectly will not always be effective and can lead to a lot of waste damage potential. LRMs always fired directly can also lead to a swift and painless/painful death. Neither one nor the other tactic, in whole and in extreme, is truly correct.

DarkonFullPower, on 17 July 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

You are literally the first and only person I've encountered that thinks IS LRM's > Clan LRM's. Even with a group of people with AMS, those Clan mech builds just seem to have unlimited ammo. Burned our entire group's AMS ammo dry have it still had more then enough left to pick off a couple of ours guys.

Clan LRM's, in practice, target the CT exclusively. IS's usual waste missiles every launch hitting the ground and/or important parts, but usualy get "something" in. Clan's do nothing for about 2-3 min, burning away AMS, and then suddenly core you out of nowhere in 5-10 second from one mech, even if you're behind cover and/or twisted 90 degrees to them. Both are weight ineffective, but the Clan's come out on top for killing power.

Actually, on the field of battle, CLRMs tend to be less effective at dealing damage. AMS tends to cut it down faster, and more of the CLRMs tend to be blocked by AMS. I've also been told/observed CLRMs as having more spread than their IS counterparts.
IS LRMs tend to be better at causing bursts of damage, which in turn helps it cut more effectively through AMS. However, they are heavier than CLRMs, which means you have to commit more of your mech to the launchers themselves.

When looked as a whole, C vs IS LRMs are rather well balanced. CLRMs are light enough to take either lots of ammo, or plenty of back up weapons. This means that clan mechs tend to be able to protect themselves better and stream more LRMs over a longer match. IS LRMs tend to see better preformance overall, but take more weight reducing back up weapon options and ammo supplies, meaning they start to falter in longer games or have a larger weakness to closer ranged opponents over CLRM based mechs.

Neither CLRMs nor IS LRMs are better than the other in a general sense. However, if you are looking for quick performance and only at LRMs preformance, IS LRMs are the way to go, and better in that sense. If you want to have more weapons/ammo to last a longer game, then CLRMs are the way to go. This will probably more or less come down to how you wish to use them, and what you expect to take from your overall build.

Edited by Tesunie, 17 July 2014 - 05:18 PM.

[Flak Kannon]

Hi Warfarer.

It depends what the definition is.

I am starting to lean towards the Trebs as a really good boat. My Loupe De Greure with LRM40 is quite amazing currently.

Why?


It is only a Medium... that's one plus. It leaves the others in your drop to drop in a more front loaded damage mech or sustained DPS mech in the Heavy or Assault class. ( Clan or IS)

The other side mediums will probably be a Shadowhawk, or Stormcrow, or Griffin, or Nova.... you see where im going. Those mechs need to have line of sight usually.. not you.

I think if all the mediums were on your team LRM boats and the Heavys and Assaults were direct fire mechs, that would be the best composition.

Just my opinion. Why?

Because clan front DPS makes mediums die ALOT faster than they used to, and because they are using their weapons for less time, they are not contributing as much as needed, or as much damage as before clan arrival.. But if all your mediums are boats, and staying out of the line of fire, and applying damage for a longer time, at a high rate, LRM30 or LRM 40, then your side will win more than lose in theory. Mediums should be the new LRM boat.


This is my opinion, which wasn't always this... it has shifted since the clan mech were released.



Discuss people.



To answer directly your question. A Highlander makes a good LRM Boat. But so does catapult, and even the missle Jager, perhaps battlemaster, or Awesome.. and then their is the Stalker...

Anything that can send out 40+ LRMs in a salvo is the best...

But I think the best make up is all 3 Medium mechs loading LRM 30 or 40...

[DarkonFullPower]

Tesunie, on 17 July 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

*snip*

You literally just said every single thing I just said, but in a longer format.

As for longer spread, from both personal experince (either getting CT'ed myself while correctly twisted or seeing it happen to someone next to me), as well as many MANY screen shots from fellow Mechwarriors, I must disagree completely.
Everything else you posted however is exact what I said.

[Tesunie]

DarkonFullPower, on 18 July 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

You literally just said every single thing I just said, but in a longer format.

As for longer spread, from both personal experince (either getting CT'ed myself while correctly twisted or seeing it happen to someone next to me), as well as many MANY screen shots from fellow Mechwarriors, I must disagree completely.
Everything else you posted however is exact what I said.

Then I must have miss-read > sign... Last I knew, you were saying that the first object is better than the second.
Thus, I took IS LRMs > C LRMs was indicating that to mean that we were saying IS LRMs were better than C LRMs, and you sounded like you were disagreeing with that statement, meaning you seemed you were meaning (in actuality) IS LRMs < C LRMs,

> means greater than?
< means less than?
Am I mixing them up again?


And yeah... sometimes I do that. I will repeat what someone else said (to basically say I agree with them) and then try to specify why I agree with them. Sometimes I just like to clarify things... Sorry if it gets annoying. (And for the record, in the short term look at weapons, IS LRMs are greater than C LRMs. In the long run, C LRMs are/can be greater than IS LRMs. It all depends upon how you use them, and what you want to get out of them.)


Your other problems about twisting and not redirecting the damage, HSR probably is messing that up, as the server HSRs your twist action, and when the server says you got hit, your torso, as far as it was concerned, was still not twisted. Thus, the damage is more concentrated on your torso. This also will depend on if you are also being hit by TAG, NARC and/or Artemis... Otherwise I've noticed CLRMs to have a very large spread, larger than IS missiles from my observation. Then again, I'm not in a clan mech, so it's a little harder to really tell one way or the other right now for me...

[DarkonFullPower]

Tesunie, on 18 July 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

Then I must have miss-read > sign... Last I knew, you were saying that the first object is better than the second.
Thus, I took IS LRMs > C LRMs was indicating that to mean that we were saying IS LRMs were better than C LRMs, and you sounded like you were disagreeing with that statement, meaning you seemed you were meaning (in actuality) IS LRMs < C LRMs,

> means greater than?
< means less than?
Am I mixing them up again?


And yeah... sometimes I do that. I will repeat what someone else said (to basically say I agree with them) and then try to specify why I agree with them. Sometimes I just like to clarify things... Sorry if it gets annoying. (And for the record, in the short term look at weapons, IS LRMs are greater than C LRMs. In the long run, C LRMs are/can be greater than IS LRMs. It all depends upon how you use them, and what you want to get out of them.)


Your other problems about twisting and not redirecting the damage, HSR probably is messing that up, as the server HSRs your twist action, and when the server says you got hit, your torso, as far as it was concerned, was still not twisted. Thus, the damage is more concentrated on your torso. This also will depend on if you are also being hit by TAG, NARC and/or Artemis... Otherwise I've noticed CLRMs to have a very large spread, larger than IS missiles from my observation. Then again, I'm not in a clan mech, so it's a little harder to really tell one way or the other right now for me...

Ok to re-clarify.

I think Clan LRM's are better, BY THE SLIGHTEST MARGIN, then IS LRM's

Also the CT "issue". If the Clan mech is above, or on level ground with you, the missile's arc so high that they will usually hit the mech from ABOVE. Twist all you want, your CT is in view at all times.

HOWEVER

A Clan mech BELLOW you will hit nothing BUT the side you twisted to.

I too have no Clan mech, but I've been shot by enough of them to experiment and see the up and down sides to them. Your analysis being almost identical to mine only helps prove that we are both right.

Edited by DarkonFullPower, 18 July 2014 - 07:27 PM.

[Tesunie]

DarkonFullPower, on 18 July 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

Ok to re-clarify.

I think Clan LRM's are better, BY THE SLIGHTEST MARGIN, then IS LRM's

Also the CT "issue". If the Clan mech is above, or on level ground with you, the missile's arc so high that they will usually hit the mech from ABOVE. Twist all you want, your CT is in view at all times.

HOWEVER

A Clan mech BELLOW you will hit nothing BUT the side you twisted to.

I too have no Clan mech, but I've been shot by enough of them to experiment and see the up and down sides to them. Your analysis being almost identical to mine only helps prove that we are both right.

They, as far as I know, don't arc any higher than IS LRMs. The arc is normally determined by the distance between the shooter and the target. The longer the distance, the greater and higher the arc. Of course, if the shooter is higher than the target, the arc is going to increase, just as if the shooter is below the target, the arc should appear to decrease from the angle of the shot.

I haven't been hit by enough CLRMs to really be able to say for certain on if there is a problem with the arcs, as I honestly tend to dodge LRMs that are shot at me for the most part (I know them too well, and there are many ways to dodge them). (Now, this isn't to say I haven't gone "Incoming LRMs" "Oh.... crud...." *Dead* before either.)

I'll have to try and keep an eye out on this now and see what happens. Maybe I might pick up the Uller to test some of these weapons out for myself so I can give more accurate data...

[Mazzyplz]

the clan LRM actually arcs LOWER than the IS lrm. this makes it so direct fire will hit you faster than IS volleys but with a stream effect to the barrage

[One of Little Harmony]

Alistair Winter, on 13 July 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

If you've got a good team, the AWS-8R with 4xLRM15+Artemis is just vicious. But it's pretty helpless on its own.

I solo'd an 4xLRM15+A AWS-8R to 9th place in a tourny. Just be sure to take two medium lasers with you! You're only helpless if you get wolfpacked. You can usually win any one on one with a light by tagging it and legging it!

[DarkonFullPower]

Mazzyplz, on 18 July 2014 - 07:54 PM, said:

the clan LRM actually arcs LOWER than the IS lrm. this makes it so direct fire will hit you faster than IS volleys but with a stream effect to the barrage

Then why are Clan Missiles hitting up by my Heavy's cockpit area on equal ground? (as in the missiles explosion smoke is always blocking my view, proving they're hitting top)
IS missiles fire like a shotgun, so I can understand it there, but Clan's are hitting top CT at all times.

[Cold Cash]

Ive found the stormcrow lrm boat modified to 2xlrm15 2xlrm5 1xnarc 1 ton ammo and 1xtag is a beast.
Usual counter is light mechs in your face when u have no support.

Fast, good armor, good refresh rate, tag and narc means u can counter any mech with ecm in the right conditions.
Also big ups is the clan narc is 600m range which is huge in brawly situations as teams will ignore u for the supposed dangerous mechs.
Also narc on a fast mech like this is amazing, you generally have good torso twist/arm movement so hitting ravens/spiders/firestarters is quite doable on this mech.

Give it a try.


Oh a little trick for getting narc to stick in a sub 600m brawl where ams might knock it out is blind fire your lrms and then wait a sec then fire the narc.
The lrms suck up the ams and the narc will stick unhindered.
Also not worried about wasted shots with this build 1300+ rounds is more than enough to waste a few rounds to get a narc lock.

Edited by Cold Cash, 20 July 2014 - 02:31 PM.

[OznerpaG]

great idea with the NARC Cold Cash - i'm getting me a Stormcrow when they come out with all those juicy c-LRM mounts


so i'm back to using TAG with clan mechs - nothing's worse than having a gaggle of enemy mechs 300m away and you can't lock on because of ECM. but the nice thing is i can link it with my ERMLas weapons group since they have similar ranges, and if i can TAG it that means i can shoot it with lasers anyways lol

Edited by JagdFlanker, 20 July 2014 - 02:44 PM.

[Tesunie]

DarkonFullPower, on 20 July 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

Then why are Clan Missiles hitting up by my Heavy's cockpit area on equal ground? (as in the missiles explosion smoke is always blocking my view, proving they're hitting top)
IS missiles fire like a shotgun, so I can understand it there, but Clan's are hitting top CT at all times.

Are you sure you are referring to LRMs, or SRMs here?

SRMs move out of their launchers like a shotgun.
LRMs (even IS ones) move at an upward angle. Don't believe me? Go under the dock in Crimson Straight, lock a target more than 200m away. Fire your LRMs. You will find, even IS LRMs, arc upwards, even on level even ground.

I have not been seeing the issue you are describing here about LRMs (clan or IS) hitting only the tops of mechs (and thus only their CT). I've been seeing the opposite in fact, with CLRMs having an even wider spread than IS LRMs do. This is only from observing them by watching them hitting targets, and watching teammates in clan mechs after I have died. I have as of yet to actually own any clan mechs, so I can not personally test out CLRMs any farther. However, as I said, what I seem to be observing does not seem to match what you are describing.

[DarkonFullPower]

Tesunie, on 20 July 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Are you sure you are referring to LRMs, or SRMs here?

SRMs move out of their launchers like a shotgun.
LRMs (even IS ones) move at an upward angle. Don't believe me? Go under the dock in Crimson Straight, lock a target more than 200m away. Fire your LRMs. You will find, even IS LRMs, arc upwards, even on level even ground.

I have not been seeing the issue you are describing here about LRMs (clan or IS) hitting only the tops of mechs (and thus only their CT). I've been seeing the opposite in fact, with CLRMs having an even wider spread than IS LRMs do. This is only from observing them by watching them hitting targets, and watching teammates in clan mechs after I have died. I have as of yet to actually own any clan mechs, so I can not personally test out CLRMs any farther. However, as I said, what I seem to be observing does not seem to match what you are describing.

Obviously LRMs. SRM can't be hitting me from 700m+.

By "shotgun" I mean that IS LRM's fire all at once in a cluster, and look like a very slow moving shotgun blast. I am not surprised that some of the missiles in this shape are high enough to hit the very top of the mech.

The upwards arc has been what I have been talking/complaining about this entire time. I have personally allowed myself to be fired at from between 500-700m range for testing purposes. On ALL TESTS (90 degree turn, equal height to opponent) The CT was cored, while every other part was between bright yellow, to just barely orange. The missile, at that range, ascend to a good distance above the mech, and then almost nosedive onto me.

Closer then 500m is sub-optimal for LRM's. There are far better weapons to replace the missiles with at that range. If this nosedive "problem" isn't happening at that range I'm not surprised, however it is irrelevant because sub-optimal.

Note that I do not think this is a BAD thing per-say. If you actually manage to hit with your Clan LRM's from 500m+, then why shouldn't they hit CT?

There is one problem with my tests though. ALL of them were done before missile splash damage was completely removed. It may be that this was only happening because of the splash of the missile hit, not because the missiles actually directly hit the CT. If every missile hit was a part + CT ht at that angle, I could see and understand my results. I will get back to you after I die to more missiles.

[Kilo 40]

Sahrang, on 17 July 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

yes, some people like to fire missiles during an entire game on targets that they will never see. the way of cowardice I think

lol!

every time I see someone post something like this, I just smile. especially when they run some kind of sniper build under ECM. Because that's how "real men" play.

[Tesunie]

DarkonFullPower, on 20 July 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

The upwards arc has been what I have been talking/complaining about this entire time. I have personally allowed myself to be fired at from between 500-700m range for testing purposes. On ALL TESTS (90 degree turn, equal height to opponent) The CT was cored, while every other part was between bright yellow, to just barely orange. The missile, at that range, ascend to a good distance above the mech, and then almost nosedive onto me.


Closer then 500m is sub-optimal for LRM's. There are far better weapons to replace the missiles with at that range. If this nosedive "problem" isn't happening at that range I'm not surprised, however it is irrelevant because sub-optimal.


There is one problem with my tests though. ALL of them were done before missile splash damage was completely removed. It may be that this was only happening because of the splash of the missile hit, not because the missiles actually directly hit the CT. If every missile hit was a part + CT ht at that angle, I could see and understand my results. I will get back to you after I die to more missiles.

I have not been observing this behavior myself, but I may need to also test this more personally.

However (if you couldn't have guessed from looking at my signature), I'm a huge LRM user (not a boat mind). I have to strongly disagree about your assessment on LRM's effective ranges. Anything outside 600m is really pushing their limit as far as actually being able to hit anything. The best shots you can get are actually between 180m out to around 400m. 500m to 600m is questionable on effectiveness as most people have enough warning to move out of the way of the LRMs.
Most of my LRM work is done well within your 500m testing ranges. (You are talking about someone crazy enough to bring the LRM party under the docks, and still make them work...) This might have something to deal with the differences in our experiences.

LRMs do sometimes (especially at longer ranges I shall admit) more or less rain on the top of a target, but they still often splash damage to the sides as much as I see them hit the CT. Sometimes you get lucky and more of your shots land on the CT, other times all you hit is a leg or an arm... It's all up to the randomness of self guided weaponry here.

I have never openly observed the arcs and issues you seemed to experience in all my time of using LRMs (a very long time shall we say... as in, since I first started to play this game). CLRMs are new, so I have to agree that (we all need) more testing is required. I'll probably be buying a Uller upon it's free release, mostly just to check out all the clan tech and see how it feels. If this thread is still going by then, or either one of us thinks of it, we can try and compare notes then. Right now, all we seem to have (as neither of is seem to have clan mechs) are observations and guesswork. (I'm not saying you are wrong, just that it seems that neither of us has anything concrete to present at this time.)

Right now, all I can say is, the way I play/pilot, I do not seem to observe the missile behaviors you seem to be noticing. This doesn't mean I am right or wrong, just that I don't happen to see it. Then again, due to all the experience I personally have with LRMs, I tend to not often get hit by them, unless I make a very large piloting error on my part. We each need more data on CLRMs, and the best way to get that is to play with CLRMs to be honest... (next month... next month...)

[Kmieciu]

According to game files, there are no differences to trajectory and spread between clan and IS LRM. The only differences are weight, slots, ghost heat penalty and "nullRange".

But, as you probably know, launcher tube count and launcher position makes a lot of difference. For example the Stormcrow has easier time lobbing LRMs over obstacles than a Warhawk.

Edited by Kmieciu, 21 July 2014 - 03:43 AM.