150 replies to this topic

[Crotch RockIt]

Marc von der Heide, on 27 July 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

I see a lot of 4 LRM5 Kitfox. I think a lot of peopel think they are the best LRM boats. Just skip the ECM....

I've used this build and like it. Firing 4 volleys at the same time helps to minimize the AMS-eating, streaming effect of clan LRMs. But, as I said earlier, I still believe that it is generally inferior to the group-firing capability of IS mechs.

Also, I recently used this loadout and was last man standing on my team in Crimson Straight. As I was getting pounced upon by the remainder of the enemy team (they still had half their team left), one of my dead teammates was complaining about idiots boating LRMs in a light mech. lol

Edited by Crotch RockIt, 28 July 2014 - 11:14 AM.

[Vimeous]

Stormcrow-D (standard pods) will happily run 3xLRM15, 2xLRM5 with a stack of ammo if you're brave/have support.
Summoner-B (standard pods) is good for 2xlrm5, 2xlrm10, lrm15 again with sustainable ammo.

Both need support but their speed and flexibility allow a large degree of adjustment. Pod swaps will garner support weapons but you'll be dropping tubes to do it.

On cool maps they can drop huge loads in short time without troubling the heat scale to badly.

The immediate knockdown of IS builds is missing but both are huge fun, something akin to a Trebtaro with Stalker loadout.

[RiotHero]

Marc von der Heide, on 27 July 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

I see a lot of 4 LRM5 Kitfox. I think a lot of peopel think they are the best LRM boats. Just skip the ECM....

I have a dual AMS Thud with both AMS modules since the module change and nothing gets through. I think a few from a lrm 20 might land. The main thing is I just pair up with even a single other ams and our team is pretty much safe. If that other teammate has ECM we have no worries about LRMS. With dual ams, 5 and 10's are void chainfired, 15's are not even a worry chainfired. Now factor in how clan LRMS are fired and it is even worse.

I play it as a support mech because honestly I can't find another use for it and hate selling mechs lol.

[Chagatay]

Unsure what you mean by "best". The best LRM boat is the one that doesn't boat LRMs. I strongly endorse backup weapons. Timbertart seems to be pretty good at it as you can slap a few racks with no serious investment of tonnage.

As far as play by play, I think LRMs are great in Puglandia. The ability to support people from far is invaluable.

Edited by Chagatay, 04 August 2014 - 05:46 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

BLR-1S

Enjoy ruining the enemy team's existence. This has been my favorite LRM boat (I call it Hellfire. Though my modification now uses 1 more DHS, while losing a ton of ammo)

You also have 4MLs to put 20 points of damage into anything that looks at you funny. Just make sure you never actually get visual on the enemy team. Always have spotters, and provide support to as many teammates as possible


Your weapon groups should be:

1- All LRMs on chain fire

2-All MLs on chain fire

3-All LRMs on alpha fire

4-All MLs on alpha fire.

BAP helps you kill ECM, and gives you extra long on range, and faster Target Info Gathering. It also disables the ECM of a nearby mech, allowing your teammates to target it (When I command an LRM lance, I ask that the LRM boats keep 200 meters between them, that way, if a light mech is face hugging one of them, the other can use it's LRMs, and not just the back up weapons.)

I don't know if it's the BEST LRM boat, but no one sees a BLR-1S and doesn't expect it to be loaded with LRMs. It's also capable of loading stupid amounts of ammo, and once it runs out of ammo (a big IF), it still has 4 MLs to burn through things quickly.

[SethAbercromby]

Chagatay, on 04 August 2014 - 05:44 PM, said:

Unsure what you mean by "best". The best LRM boat is the one that doesn't boat LRMs. I strongly endorse backup weapons. Timbertart seems to be pretty good at it as you can slap a few racks with no serious investment of tonnage.

As far as play by play, I think LRMs are great in Puglandia. The ability to support people from far is invaluable.

They are still pretty good at area denial, but one shouldn't confuse them for a primary weapon. I currently have a KFX eqipeed with 2 LRM10s, an LRM5 and a UAC2. I primarily use those LRMs to stream additional damage onto anything I'm poining my UAC2 at. I still consider the build experimental because I have played about 5 matches with it and my experience so far has been mixed. But that also comes from me being used to larger tonnages so I still have to change my play.

[Macksheen]

I strongly recommend against boating, in general. Some thoughts and opinions.

Boating implies that you are overloaded on one weapon; in this case, a weapon with some pretty harsh restrictions and easy-enough-to-thwart mechanics. Boating means lots of tubes and crap tons of ammo. Mechs that can do this tend to be less mobile, and can't get in to position or out of trouble easily. Boating also tends to mean you don't have secondary weapon systems, or if you do you may have issues bringing them to bear because of stuff like slow turning or poor arm articulation. If you don't have any backup system, WTH do you do when someone is within minimum range?

So ... I don't like boating LRMs. Boating is like running tunnel on Frozen City EVERY TIME. Sure, it can work ... and when it does, it's great. But, if someone is paying attention, all of a sudden you're stuck in a tunnel and mowed down. Same w/ boating LRMs ... you get a team that has overloaded on AMS or ECM or simply knows how to use cover and/or gets in your face and brawls, you're dead in the water.

But, if you're boating, things like CPLT, AWS and STK seem to be good.

Personally, I like to run LRMs - but I run them as (a) secondary weapons on something big, something to use while I'm closing to direct-fire or ( skirmishers (faster light/mediums).

Skirmishing LRMs means you're moving around and mobile - helping you counteract the enemy's use of cover, helping you get past AMS (including the ability to lower your arc or fire from closer in a hit/fade to get more though).

Clan LRMs can be run well enough just by themselves, with no backup, if you're on a mobile mech. I have definitely had kills at 90m with them. Been leveling some Paddleboats lately, and they do amuse me.

LRMs can be used in places like HPG underneath, if you have the mobility to find the right distances to control the arc of flight.

Skirmishing LRMs often means you've got something like 3+MLs you can bring to bear too, which definitely offsets the minimum range usage issues.

When skirmishing, tube count isn't as important - I often go 20-30 tubes on an IS with mobility (a medium, say, like a Griffin) ... then of course the backup weapons.

Yes, LRMs give you an option to fire with a bit more relative safety. Of course, you are swapping Radar Derp for Target Decay while you level, so you're a bit less-safe than others to return fire ... but you can make that up once mastered.

Bring your TAG if you can, unless you're good at dead firing them. I've gotten fairly good at dead-firing them, esp at snipers under ECM that think they are protected and can sit still. If you're not good at this, bring TAG.

I do enjoy the QQ from people who I kill running LRMs saying things like "L2P LRM NOOB" ... it brightens the soul. I'm playing for long-term consistent wins, and I think some chassis lend themselves quite well to the LRM skirmisher ... though I can't get behind boating them on a slow ponderous heavy as a long-term winning strategy in anything other than a pre-planned group where the whole team is rolling the dice.

[D3athScyth3]

Not sure they are the 'best' but my 2 favorites, and the ones i have the most dmg/kills/win-loss with are

ON1-V - 3 x lrm15 + art, 2 x med pulse, xl300, rest allocated to ammo (from memory its about 11-12t

Also have a similar config in the TBR however i run quad er med in that with triple clan lrm15s + art, and about 10.5t ammo

In terms of a more 'mixed range' build i love my TBR-P, runs dual lrm20, dual srm6 and quad er med, works very well, and also love my old founders C1 running dual 15 quad med, was also a deadly mech, i think its currently sitting at a kpd of 8 after 140 matchs (best mech stats i have)

[Macksheen]

D3athScyth3, on 04 August 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

Not sure they are the 'best' but my 2 favorites, and the ones i have the most dmg/kills/win-loss with are

ON1-V - 3 x lrm15 + art, 2 x med pulse, xl300, rest allocated to ammo (from memory its about 11-12t

Also have a similar config in the TBR however i run quad er med in that with triple clan lrm15s + art, and about 10.5t ammo

In terms of a more 'mixed range' build i love my TBR-P, runs dual lrm20, dual srm6 and quad er med, works very well, and also love my old founders C1 running dual 15 quad med, was also a deadly mech, i think its currently sitting at a kpd of 8 after 140 matchs (best mech stats i have)

I have a build I call "A complete waste of a Timber Wolf" that I ran to mastery mostly to annoy a guy in my unit. It has 2xLRM15+A and something like 7 tons of ammo ... and 6xERML, TAG, CAP and jumps. It reminds me quite a bit of a 4xML CPLT-C1 (only, you know, with more lasers and TAG ... and typically faster).

Neither of those would I consider a "boat" though, like an LRM60-80 STK or AWS or whatever.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 13 July 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

The Warhawk is grossly limited by Clan LRM's, which are flat-out bad compared to IS LRM's. The staggered firing allows MANY LRM's to be destroyed even by a single AMS unit. Two or three and you literally do zero damage to a target in the open. And, look! ECM+3AMS kitfoxes abound. Welcome to being totally useless.

People keep saying that but I just don't see it personally, and I've played LRMs on both sides.

1) Any situation where your Clan LRMs are being denied by ECM, good use over cover or massive AMS cover - IS LRMs wouldn't really be any more effective either.

2) Many players still don't take AMS. Focus on them.

3) The Warhawk can slot anywhere from "LRMs light" with like 30 tubes, and still have 4 MLAS or 3 MLAS and some kind of a ballistic, or cER LLAS all the way up to 4 LRM launchers and 1200 to 1800 missiles with TAG, and Active Probe and up to 4 energy weapons. So "useless" is a huge stretch.



Number 3 is the critical point. Unlike a Stalker with a 25 ton engine, the Warhawk saves 5 tons there.

Your "backup" weapons, can be 1 ton ER MLAS that work with 450m optimal range and can still tickle people at 800+m. 4x cER MLAS put out roughly the same damage as 3x LLAS for roughly the same heat but less than 1/3rd the weight.

You'd be hard pressed to fit LRM 50, 3x LLAS, 20 DHS, Tag, Active Probe & 1440-1800 missiles on a Stalker - but you can do effectively that on a WHK.

The main issue for the Warhawk in this role is critical slots, but beyond that it moves at 71kph, tanks like a Stalker and with visual locks at 400m - 600m you will just tear people apart with even "just" ALRM 50.


The group queue is a different matter, and really depends if you have LRM spotters, the map and how good the other team is, but again that goes for all LRMs.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 04 August 2014 - 07:16 PM.

[Azzgaroth]

Bttlemaste do ALOT of damage when boating LRM. I personnaly run LRM50 + artemis, 2 med las tag. Its a very fun build.

[IraqiWalker]

Ultimatum X, on 04 August 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

People keep saying that but I just don't see it personally, and I've played LRMs on both sides.

1) Any situation where your Clan LRMs are being denied by ECM, good use over cover or massive AMS cover - IS LRMs wouldn't really be any more effective either.

2) Many players still don't take AMS. Focus on them.

3) The Warhawk can slot anywhere from "LRMs light" with like 30 tubes, and still have 4 MLAS or 3 MLAS and some kind of a ballistic, or cER LLAS all the way up to 4 LRM launchers and 1200 to 1800 missiles with TAG, and Active Probe and up to 4 energy weapons. So "useless" is a huge stretch.



Number 3 is the critical point. Unlike a Stalker with a 25 ton engine, the Warhawk saves 5 tons there.

Your "backup" weapons, can be 1 ton ER MLAS that work with 450m optimal range and can still tickle people at 800+m. 4x cER MLAS put out roughly the same damage as 3x LLAS for roughly the same heat but less than 1/3rd the weight.

You'd be hard pressed to fit LRM 50, 3x LLAS, 20 DHS, Tag, Active Probe & 1440-1800 missiles on a Stalker - but you can do effectively that on a WHK.

The main issue for the Warhawk in this role is critical slots, but beyond that it moves at 71kph, tanks like a Stalker and with visual locks at 400m - 600m you will just tear people apart with even "just" ALRM 50.


The group queue is a different matter, and really depends if you have LRM spotters, the map and how good the other team is, but again that goes for all LRMs.

As someone who uses LRMs, allow me to say, IS LRMs are by and large far better.

Simply put, More IS LRMs will hit target than Clan LRMs. AMS destroys more missiles from clan launchers than IS launchers. Targets have more time to avoid most of the salvo as it trickles down on them.

Basically, clan LRMs will shake your cockpit to insanely annoying levels, but they are just repeated pokes of "hey hey hey hey hey!", while IS LRMs operate like a sledge hammer.

If there's AMS cover that can rip an IS LRM salvo and stop it, an equivalent clan LRM salvo will have no chance of penetrating. While the reverse is not true.

Right now, there are no good clan LRM boats. Oh there are LRM capable clan mechs, but not a single one of them holds a candle to my BLR-1S. Which fires 50 LRMs per salvo, and unlike clan mechs, the enemy has less time to avoid them, and AMS is almost half as effective against them.

[Ultimax]

IraqiWalker, on 04 August 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

As someone who uses LRMs, allow me to say, IS LRMs are by and large far better.

Simply put, More IS LRMs will hit target than Clan LRMs. AMS destroys more missiles from clan launchers than IS launchers. Targets have more time to avoid most of the salvo as it trickles down on them.

Basically, clan LRMs will shake your cockpit to insanely annoying levels, but they are just repeated pokes of "hey hey hey hey hey!", while IS LRMs operate like a sledge hammer.

If there's AMS cover that can rip an IS LRM salvo and stop it, an equivalent clan LRM salvo will have no chance of penetrating. While the reverse is not true.

Right now, there are no good clan LRM boats. Oh there are LRM capable clan mechs, but not a single one of them holds a candle to my BLR-1S. Which fires 50 LRMs per salvo, and unlike clan mechs, the enemy has less time to avoid them, and AMS is almost half as effective against them.

I understand what you are getting at, but what I'm saying is that you can work around those issues most of the time.

On top of that, my clan LRMs have much higher overall accuracy.


The way you cut down on giving people time to "avoid" LRMs, is that you play them midrange.

400-500m is basically the sweetspot preferably with visual locks.

The closer you are, the less chance they have to escape at all.


You can do this in the WHK, because it tanks like a Stalker and has decent speed for an Assault mech.


Also, as I mentioned, you are running a more survivable XL engine & your launchers are half IS weight.

Which means more stuff, and you can have enough "backup" weaponry so that you will never be "useless".



I understand the realities of using LRMs in the group queue, but this is what my WHK-B LRM 50 looks like from just solo drops.



I'm not posting this for epeen, I'm sure people have better stats than this with their LRM machines.

Out of all of the LRM builds I've tried, this one is consistently performing very well - averaging 900-1300 damage 3-5 kills on Victories.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 04 August 2014 - 07:47 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Ultimatum X, on 04 August 2014 - 07:45 PM, said:

I understand what you are getting at, but what I'm saying is that you can work around those issues most of the time.

On top of that, my clan LRMs have much higher overall accuracy.


The way you cut down on giving people time to "avoid" LRMs, is that you play them midrange.

400-500m is basically the sweetspot preferably with visual locks.

The closer you are, the less chance they have to escape at all.


You can do this in the WHK, because it tanks like a Stalker and has decent speed for an Assault mech.


Also, as I mentioned, you are running a more survivable XL engine & your launchers are half IS weight.

Which means more stuff, and you can have enough "backup" weaponry so that you will never be "useless".



I understand the realities of using LRMs in the group queue, but this is what my WHK-B LRM 50 looks like from just solo drops.



I'm not posting this for epeen, I'm sure people have better stats than this with their LRM machines.

Out of all of the LRM builds I've tried, this one is consistently performing very well - averaging 900-1300 damage 3-5 kills on Victories.

Clan LRMs actually spread more, I think. (I'll have to double check that part).

Oh I understand that you can work around the downsides. That applies for most weapons. However, salvo for salvo, the IS launchers are much better because of the trickle vs. sledgehammer.

While the WHK you use has an engagement range of 500 or so meters. my BLR has an engagement range up to 800 meters.

At the same range, the IS launchers (while weighing more and taking up one more slot), will deal more guaranteed damage to an.

I am also not saying that clan LRMs can't work. Just that they are at the bottom of the barrel compared to most weapons out there.

I still love using them, but when my team asks me to bring an LRM boat, I will bring an IS mech 90% of the time.

[Ultimax]

IraqiWalker, on 04 August 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

Clan LRMs actually spread more, I think. (I'll have to double check that part).

This is something I've been dying to test honestly, and I can't give a clear yes or no answer on it.

What I can say is that my ACC for Clan LRMs with Artemis are markedly higher than my IS LRMs with Artemis.

I'm not sure if it's because I'm playing so aggressively and taking the fight to the front line, or the mechanics of the launchers.

IraqiWalker, on 04 August 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

Oh I understand that you can work around the downsides. That applies for most weapons. However, salvo for salvo, the IS launchers are much better because of the trickle vs. sledgehammer.

While the WHK you use has an engagement range of 500 or so meters. my BLR has an engagement range up to 800 meters.

Honestly that's not something I've tested, even with my IS LRM builds, I try to engage mid-range unless I have good spotters.

The WHK-B build above, at like 400-500m, can usually 2 or max 3 volley a target off the map with visual lock.

This includes most assaults.

I just find that's a more efficient use of LRMs in general, and outside of a few other Assault builds, I'm willing to go one on one with almost any other assaults in a direct fire contest with this. (You don't want to do that vs. most DW builds, or the triple AC 5 banshee, etc)

Out duelling a 2x ER PPC + 1x Gauss WHK prime was pretty fun. I don't think he realized the max DPS of an LRM build like this is around 20.

IraqiWalker, on 04 August 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

I still love using them, but when my team asks me to bring an LRM boat, I will bring an IS mech 90% of the time.

Team queue, honestly I haven't brought my LRM boat out much as the team queue is much more difficult to get LRMs working against coordinated teams.

[Cuddlytron]

Balanced boat?

BLR-1S
XL360
2 ALRM15
2 ASRM4
4 ML
Lots of ammo

Theoretical build, as I don't have the XL360 to run it. I've had quite a lot of success with the ALRM50 BLR-1S running XL340, but I just HATE getting caught up close with only a few Med Las for defense. Sucks nuts. Nice to have a decent punch for CQC.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimatum X, on 04 August 2014 - 07:45 PM, said:

I understand what you are getting at, but what I'm saying is that you can work around those issues most of the time.

On top of that, my clan LRMs have much higher overall accuracy.

The way you cut down on giving people time to "avoid" LRMs, is that you play them midrange.

400-500m is basically the sweetspot preferably with visual locks.

The closer you are, the less chance they have to escape at all.


You can do this in the WHK, because it tanks like a Stalker and has decent speed for an Assault mech.

Also, as I mentioned, you are running a more survivable XL engine & your launchers are half IS weight.

Which means more stuff, and you can have enough "backup" weaponry so that you will never be "useless".

I understand the realities of using LRMs in the group queue, but this is what my WHK-B LRM 50 looks like from just solo drops.



I'm not posting this for epeen, I'm sure people have better stats than this with their LRM machines.

Out of all of the LRM builds I've tried, this one is consistently performing very well - averaging 900-1300 damage 3-5 kills on Victories.

Your personal results aren't really relevant.

IS vs. Clan LRM's, IS LRM's are simply better.

Clan LRM's have downsides, but no actual advantages. Sure, you can work around some of those downsides, some of the time, but IS never need to do that.

Saying you're as effective when there's no AMS, for example, is kind of pointless - It just means that Clan LRM's are more unreliable. They don't do MORE damage than IS LRM's when there's no AMS after all. Further, due to the prolonged stream, it's more likely to get only part of a volley hitting while your target moves into cover, whereas the IS LRM's would have all hit.

ECM is a wash between the two types, so that's irrelevant.

The Warhawk can carry more backup weapons, but that's a discussion about the Warhawk, not the Clan LRM's.

The fact of the matter is quite simple: Clan LRM's are nowhere near as effective as IS LRM's. They are more easily countered, no matter what you do. And LRM's numerous passive and active counters are a severe problem for all LRM's, so making it worse is a bad, bad thing.

Arguing that you're more effective because you engage closer is silly, as you could do exactly the same thing with IS LRM's. It's basically just saying "Clan LRM's are superior because I use them better" when you could use the IS LRM's better too.

The only advantage Clan LRM's have is still doing damage inside minimum range (which is a bonus, now), but they are still very poor close-range weaponry, each missile doing only around .5 damage at 120m, and practically nothing at 90m. They're basically close-range cockpit shakers.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 04 August 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Clan LRM's have downsides, but no actual advantages. Sure, you can work around some of those downsides, some of the time, but IS never need to do that.

Advantages:

1) Half the weight.
2) Better backup weapon options.
3) Fire arc lowers as you close distance, this means at 180m you can actually shoot LRMs while under the "Garage" in (EDIT) Crimson Straights and hit targets that are also under the Garage there - You can also fire them inside the tunnel under the airstrip in River City.
4) Can still do acceptable damage to about 150m.

Wintersdark, on 04 August 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Saying you're as effective when there's no AMS, for example, is kind of pointless - It just means that Clan LRM's are more unreliable. They don't do MORE damage than IS LRM's when there's no AMS after all. Further, due to the prolonged stream, it's more likely to get only part of a volley hitting while your target moves into cover, whereas the IS LRM's would have all hit.

I'll let you believe what ever you want, but the clan spread seems to be much, much lower due to the stream. It's like the way LRM 5s work, except it does that for all clan LRMs. This is both a blessing and a curse, but not the outright loss you seem to be making it.

Wintersdark, on 04 August 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

The Warhawk can carry more backup weapons, but that's a discussion about the Warhawk, not the Clan LRM's.

Wintersdark, on 04 August 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

The Warhawk is grossly limited by Clan LRM's

That's what I was responding to, hence my response.

It's also hyperbole.

Wintersdark, on 04 August 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Arguing that you're more effective because you engage closer is silly, as you could do exactly the same thing with IS LRM's.

No it's a total picture statement on the WHK (and to a lesser extent the TBR & SCR)

400-500m allows you to also use any "backup" weapons like Clan ER MLAS.

It's also a statement on the Warhawk that it can have a high tube count, a good movement speed and actually play at that range successfully.

This thread is about "LRM boats" not "Clan LRMs" vs. "IS LRMs", and you're the one who thinks the WHK is "grossly limited".


A bad match with the WHK sees me doing 600 damage. A good match will be 900-1300 and multiple kills.

I really don't believe these results are just isolated to me or that I am even remotely special.

I think the forum echo chamber on clan LRMs has swayed a lot of people's opinions - that and watching people launch LRMs blindly using IDF at 800+M which is bad for IS LRMs as well unless there is a real spotter.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 05 August 2014 - 05:00 AM.

[Chagatay]

Ultimatum X, on 04 August 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

Advantages:
1) Half the weight.
2) Better backup weapon options.
3) Fire arc lowers as you close distance, this means at 180m you can actually shoot LRMs while under the "Garage" in River City and hit targets that are also under the Garage in River City.
4) Can still do acceptable damage to about 150m.

Indeed. Biggest things that I see with them is the following:
- No min range or at least a lot better against stuff closer up
- Weigh next to nothing

I see lots of potential for this class of weapon outside the IS ones. It makes for a ghetto light swatter. Sure it may not kill them but that amount of screen shake alone is enough to kind of give them a hint to move on or make them start to panic* or possibly cause them to smash their keyboard or monitor with their fists. Unlike streaks, it is useful for that indirect fire downtown crap too. You can even defy the conventional wisdom and short tonnage them just for this purpose. I mean heck the launchers don't weigh squat and if you are prudently using them you don't need to follow the "1 ton per 5 tubes rule" if you are shooting most stuff you are staring at.

*Don't panic....ever. A panicking pilot is a dead pilot.

[Surtosi]

Hunchback 4J with LRM10+Art is incredibly fun and useful if you know how to play like a light mech. While heavies and assaults have the missile capacity to chew through any armor but with a medium missile platform positioning is just as important. Include TAG and not only are your missiles better, but so are everyone else's. The Griffin and Treb are also great at this with JJ to get into rocky areas.