35 replies to this topic

[Keeshu]

The past couple weeks I've been worried greatly about the Mad Dog while I've been playing MWO, so I figured I'd vent off my worries here, and let other people do the same as well. I'm curious to see what you guys want in the game, even if it may never come to be for various reasons.



Feel free to skip reading the rest of this post and make your reply, I like to make wall of texts pretty often.



The classic Mad Dog is my favorite Battletech mech design. The first major thing I worry about is that the MW4 version will be used. While I find it okay and like it more than many mechs, it just doesn't make me go "OMG MUST HAVE!" since it makes it look more like every other mech design out there. While most of the clan mechs we have are rather faithful to their classic designs, Timber Wolf is one of the ones changed the most. The Mad Dog uses the same legs and is kind of based off the Timber Wolf a little. So I'm incredibly worried that the Mad Dog is going to get bulked up like the Timber Wolf did, instead of being more classic like some of the other mechs we have. This is what I worry about the most, as I don't care too much about well I do for the most part, but I do want a ride that will look nice and have weapons I love..... Though, I will probably remove the medium pulses for more heat sinks/ammo since it sucks to run out of ammo, and to overheat like crazy on hot maps. Maybe downgrade the LRMs to 15, and Large lasers to ERs for more ammo/heat sinks. Of course, ER PPCs are my favorite weapons after missles (Large Lasers are probably favorite after ER PPCs[and tied with IS ac/20, gauss rifles, and various clan ballistics]), so I'll replace the large pulses with ER PPCs if I can get away with it.

The other major thing I worry about is game balance. Personally I don't care about playing an underpowered mech all that much, but I do know there are other people that do, and I'd rather not have the Mad Dog players being pestered for using a mech that's outclassed in every way by something else. Or worst case scenario, that the devs might consider not putting it in from thinking that the Mad Dog will never be able to be worth putting in because of how much better the Timber Wolf is.
The Timber Wolf Prime can do almost anything the Mad Dog Prime can do, just with .5 tons less room for weapons/ammo but with 5 more heat sinks hardwired into it and more armor, same speed, and is jumpjet capable.
At least the Mad Dog C and A have ballistics in the arms, and Mad Dog A is able to do 6 SRM 6s.
If we get the B's (or G's) right arm, and H's left arm, Mad Dog can have 6 Energy hardpoints in the arms, timber wolf can only have 4 in the arms 2 in the side torsos (and 1 in CT if it's timberwolf C). Mad Dog F side torsos will allow 4 more energy hard points in the side torsos. Though it does have less tonnage for heat sinks than the timber wolf since the Timber Wolf has 5 extra heat sinks hardwired in, though I'm not expecting people to try to turn the Mad Dog into an oversized jumpjetless nova, and I'm not expecting the devs to put that many different pods in just for the Mad Dog when they've only had 2 so far, 1 for Kit Fox, 1 for Nova, and those were for support.
The problem is that I'd rather use the Mad Dog Prime, instead of the other two. Don't get me wrong, Dual gauss sounds sexy, and I love the usefulness of A, I'm just usually not a fan of ballistics unless I have a mech focused around them. I'm just hoping the Mad Dog Prime has enough quirks that make it useful enough to make it so you can choose between the Mad Dog Prime or a Timber Wolf, so the Timber Wolf doesn't just outright outclass the Mad Dog Prime.
There's a very good chance I'm just worrying over nothing when it comes to the balance with Mad Dog though.



Shadow Cat is my third favorite battletech design, and is exactly what I like in a sniping mech loadout. It moves very fast, has jumpjets, and is based around the gauss rifle. Though, Inner Sphere first sees these at the Battle of Luthien (3052) so it'll be a few years before we'll see them sadly. though they were in production before so I'm hoping it gets added anyways.





As for clan mechs that I want in the game but practically have no chance of getting in, though all of these are just minor wants anyways:

Quad Mechs - From what I've heard from many game developer commentaries, anything with 4 or more legs is a programming nightmare. Most of them (or at least the ones I like or are actually useful) are past our timeline as well. Sorry Jaguar, Thunder Fox, and Tarantula.

Unseen mechs - Yeah there's a bazillion threads on them. Most of the Unseen designs I don't really care for actually. Though the ones I want are Rifleman IIC (First mech I ever piloted, and was one of my favorites for a long time because of those rediculously long barrels. but I grew to love other mechs more and it's slow speed got to me), Warhammer IIC (Long barrels again, one of the mechs that made me love PPCs), Marauder (one of the mechs that made me love PPCs, and for it being so strange, but the Alt config 2 picture on sarna I prefer over the old one). But most importantly the Stone Rhino (aka behemoth). Doesn't look anything like the "HWR-00-Mk. II Monster Heavy Weight Destroid" to me. I just love the long barrels, and it's kind of like a scorpion, also if I were to ever snipe in an assault mech, I'd probably pick the Stone Rhino. Sadly if we did get the Stone Rhino we'd probably get the Stone Rhino 2 design, while it's not a bad design, I don't care much for it. Stone Rhino also lacks variants that use the weapons we have.

Some mechs not in this timeline:
Cougar: #9 favorite Battletech design, and has a mini-Mad Dog loadout
Raptor II: #4 favorite Battletech design. They'd have to make a bunch of new weapons for this guy though. Also, I'd love to see the Void Signature System being used, but that is probably only a dream.
Osprey: #2 favorite Battletech design. However, 64km for a 55 ton medium is not fast enough. Also, we'd need to have the MML 7 in the game.




I look forward to seeing what people worry about/want for Clan Mechs in MWO.
On a side note, I feel much much better that I've gotten that off my chest.

[Pariah Devalis]

Homogenation. That is what I fear, as the IS mechs are in a state of it, and the Timber Wolf S furthers the trend. Having tonnage differences would not be a factor if a lighter mech could do something a heavier one in the same class cannot. Jumping Timber Wolf all but obliterates the Summoner as a competing heavy because it can also jump, for example.

That is one of the reasons I want the Hellbringer. It brings something new to the game, let alone to the Clan heavy lineup: ECM heavy mech. None of the others offer that option (yet). Its price? Badly optimized base configurations that are all about four tons shy on armor and not jump capable. You cannot pop tart in a Hellbie but you offer fantastic team utility and respectable firepower.

Another mech I want is the Huntsman, which is like a more flexible Nova, loadout wise. Would probably supercede the Stormcrow as the best Clan medium out there as it is jump capable, has plenty of pod space for guns, and can cram your choice of energy, ballistic, or missiles. However, just like the Shadowcat, it is first seen in use by Nova Cat pilots in the battle of Luthien.

Arctic Cheetah, on the other hand, is a mech I want badly, but I fear it is so good at what it does it would obsolete the other light mechs in the game. Not just clan mechs, but all light mechs. Then again, with faction locking in CW, IS cannot use the mech anyways.

[CyclonerM]

Well, the Mad Dog Prime has little less firepower than the Timber Wolf Prime.. Being 15 tons lighter.

I will use it anyway, but i hope it will have good hitboxes at very least. I want it!!

[CHH Badkarma]

I worry the most about our current and future clan mechs being nerfed back into the stone. With the current amount of threads with people crying about clan tech, you can bet your pet surat the the nerf hammer will be falling hard on clan weapons systems in the near future.

[Dirk Le Daring]

Better than 15 fps in a brawl.........Seriously.

[Grey Black]

Problematic mechs I want are the Hellbringer and Fire Moth.

The Hellbringer is Clan heavy that offers ECM and hella pod space, which could make it a powerful mech in the right hands. The problem is the primary variants stock loadout including A-pods. The act of including it would necessitate either creating a use for the equipment in this game or breaking the stock loadout by not including them. Either one seems like a bad move to me.

The Fire Moth, on the other hand, would fill the niche necessary for a fast Clan scout mech, providing something that the Clans will desperately need in CW. However, it is SO FAST that it would break the games engine by even existing (200+kph pre-speed tweak).while fragile as sin, it would absolutely break the games engine.

[Pariah Devalis]

Grey Black, on 20 July 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

Problematic mechs I want are the Hellbringer and Fire Moth.

The Hellbringer is Clan heavy that offers ECM and hella pod space, which could make it a powerful mech in the right hands. The problem is the primary variants stock loadout including A-pods. The act of including it would necessitate either creating a use for the equipment in this game or breaking the stock loadout by not including them. Either one seems like a bad move to me.

The Fire Moth, on the other hand, would fill the niche necessary for a fast Clan scout mech, providing something that the Clans will desperately need in CW. However, it is SO FAST that it would break the games engine by even existing (200+kph pre-speed tweak).while fragile as sin, it would absolutely break the games engine.

YLW had pods IIRC. They replaced it with extra armor. 2 crits, 4 slots, though can easily translate to 2 additional DHS, or else 2 additional tons of armor. Which considering the mech is 5 tons under-armored, is something. Two additional DHS, however, work pretty well since they are interchangeable with the current set of items in the game.

It also only comes with 13 DHS, meaning it is undersinked for any energy based build (which is a near necessity), so additional DHS are needed. Between solving the heatsink issue and the armor issue, whatever significant edge it might have is lost. Probably around ~25 usable tons once you fix armor, no additional DHS. Install ECM, 24 tons of space remain. No jump jet option available IIRC, so it can directly compete with the Summoner and Timber Wolf as a utility mech, with, of course, less armor than either being a lighter mech.

Not concerned about the ol' Hellbie, really.

Could totally see myself rocking a Hellbringer with 2 ERPPC, 3 ERSLas, 1 SRM4, 0.5 ton of ammo, and 9 additional DHS (totalling 22 DHS). Hardly game breaking.


Potentially agree about the Firemoth, however. 216 with MASC, before speed tweak... God damn.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 20 July 2014 - 05:55 PM.

[Keeshu]

Grey Black, on 20 July 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

Problematic mechs I want are the Hellbringer and Fire Moth.

The Hellbringer is Clan heavy that offers ECM and hella pod space, which could make it a powerful mech in the right hands. The problem is the primary variants stock loadout including A-pods. The act of including it would necessitate either creating a use for the equipment in this game or breaking the stock loadout by not including them. Either one seems like a bad move to me.

The Fire Moth, on the other hand, would fill the niche necessary for a fast Clan scout mech, providing something that the Clans will desperately need in CW. However, it is SO FAST that it would break the games engine by even existing (200+kph pre-speed tweak).while fragile as sin, it would absolutely break the games engine.

Don't worry about the A-pods on the Hellbringer. They can either upgrade the Targetting computer to a 5 ton (instead of 3 ton) targeting computer, or do what Pariah said, or add more ammo.

Unless they want to make a rule that no stock build can have a targeting computer for whatever reason, then just do what Pariah said.
Afterall, after hearing about Russ saying that the Hellbringer would make it so they could re-use the summoner, fill a tonnage slot and other things, I wouldn't be surprised if Hellbringer came in before anything else..... Even if I do want the Mad Dog in now. So you have nothing to fear when it comes to the Hellbringer.

Sadly I can't say anything about the Fire Moth though. I had a lot of fun with that mech in Mechwarrior 2, hopefully they'll fix the speed issues at some point. Looking forward to zooming around with it someday.

[Pariah Devalis]

I just want a special animation for a Fire Moth, when it suffers a MASC malfunction or gets legged while running at MASC speeds:

Tumbling end over end, parts flinging off as the 20-ton mech literally disintegrates due to the speed it was traveling when the leg blew, before coming to a slow, screeching halt in a self-made furrow, shattered limbs twitching with electrical shorts zapping its myomer musculature. XD

[CHH Badkarma]

I say keep the A pods on the hellbringer. Just buff them so they are effective against leg humping light mechs.

[Grey Black]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 July 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:

YLW had pods IIRC. They replaced it with extra armor. 2 crits, 4 slots, though can easily translate to 2 additional DHS, or else 2 additional tons of armor. Which considering the mech is 5 tons under-armored, is something. Two additional DHS, however, work pretty well since they are interchangeable with the current set of items in the game.

It also only comes with 13 DHS, meaning it is undersinked for any energy based build (which is a near necessity), so additional DHS are needed. Between solving the heatsink issue and the armor issue, whatever significant edge it might have is lost. Probably around ~25 usable tons once you fix armor, no additional DHS. Install ECM, 24 tons of space remain. No jump jet option available IIRC, so it can directly compete with the Summoner and Timber Wolf as a utility mech, with, of course, less armor than either being a lighter mech.

Not concerned about the ol' Hellbie, really.

Could totally see myself rocking a Hellbringer with 2 ERPPC, 3 ERSLas, 1 SRM4, 0.5 ton of ammo, and 9 additional DHS (totalling 22 DHS). Hardly game breaking.


Potentially agree about the Firemoth, however. 216 with MASC, before speed tweak... God damn.

Keeshu, on 20 July 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

Don't worry about the A-pods on the Hellbringer. They can either upgrade the Targetting computer to a 5 ton (instead of 3 ton) targeting computer, or do what Pariah said, or add more ammo.

Unless they want to make a rule that no stock build can have a targeting computer for whatever reason, then just do what Pariah said.
Afterall, after hearing about Russ saying that the Hellbringer would make it so they could re-use the summoner, fill a tonnage slot and other things, I wouldn't be surprised if Hellbringer came in before anything else..... Even if I do want the Mad Dog in now. So you have nothing to fear when it comes to the Hellbringer.

Sadly I can't say anything about the Fire Moth though. I had a lot of fun with that mech in Mechwarrior 2, hopefully they'll fix the speed issues at some point. Looking forward to zooming around with it someday.

Never said that it was impossible, merely problematic. Imagine if they made it a habit of breaking stock builds like that? What would stop them from legit changing the stock builds of any given mech? Change the LRM20 to an LRM15 stock?

[Pariah Devalis]

Grey Black, on 20 July 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

Never said that it was impossible, merely problematic. Imagine if they made it a habit of breaking stock builds like that? What would stop them from legit changing the stock builds of any given mech? Change the LRM20 to an LRM15 stock?

I suppose it would be a matter of "what is best for the game." A-Pods are anti-personnel pods. Against a mech, they would be like a one time use, one second blast from a single machine gun. No way on earth that is worth half a ton and a crit a pop. Hell, the only reason MGuns are worth a damn now is because they are murder on exposed components, with sustained fire. Given they made a precedent in the form of the Yen-Lo, and given we are not fighting unarmed infantry (as even Power Armor would shrug that off), I highly doubt anyone would care if APods were swapped for something that is actually useful to the mech.

Now, if you were to, say, introduce MW4 "stock variants" and claim them as cannon variants, holy god. The shitstorm that would cause.... Swapping one worthless piece of one time use anti-personnel equipment for something of value vs swapping total configurations for imaginationland variants is a whole other beast. :\

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 July 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

Tumbling end over end, parts flinging off as the 20-ton mech literally disintegrates due to the speed it was traveling when the leg blew, before coming to a slow, screeching halt in a self-made furrow, shattered limbs twitching with electrical shorts zapping its myomer musculature. XD

I want a less spectacular version of that animation for all the 'Mechs lol.

Also think if you could keep the cockpit view when tumbling and falling Another thing i would like to see..

Besides, Russ mentioned the Mad Dog as "obvious choice" in the podcast #115. Something says me that we will see it first.

I agree with your concern about the Artic Cheetah. The Adder is already a rare sight on the battlefield, and the Kit Fox is almost only used as ECM carrier (and sniper). If a fast light was added, the slower ones would be even more rare, something i do not want to see

It is funny if you think that the stock Firestarter goes 97 KPH too..

[Keeshu]

CHH Badkarma, on 20 July 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

I say keep the A pods on the hellbringer. Just buff them so they are effective against leg humping light mechs.

Why do I get the feeling that if A-pods were added to the game, that it'd encourage players to try doing Death From Above, but with more explosive results. I'd be okay if they wanted to add them for something like that.

CyclonerM, on 21 July 2014 - 02:13 AM, said:

I want a less spectacular version of that animation for all the 'Mechs lol. Also think if you could keep the cockpit view when tumbling and falling Another thing i would like to see.. Besides, Russ mentioned the Mad Dog as "obvious choice" in the podcast #115. Something says me that we will see it first. I agree with your concern about the Artic Cheetah. The Adder is already a rare sight on the battlefield, and the Kit Fox is almost only used as ECM carrier (and sniper). If a fast light was added, the slower ones would be even more rare, something i do not want to see It is funny if you think that the stock Firestarter goes 97 KPH too..

Maybe I'm bad at reading people's voices, but it sorta sounded like he was going "uh, yeah, fine we'll add the hellbringer" as if it's the more qualified mech to enter first, or maybe he was just sounding that way because he knows there's going to be people complaining about ECM.
I prefer the Mad Dog, but I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Hellbringer first.

[CyclonerM]

Keeshu, on 21 July 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Maybe I'm bad at reading people's voices, but it sorta sounded like he was going "uh, yeah, fine we'll add the hellbringer" as if it's the more qualified mech to enter first, or maybe he was just sounding that way because he knows there's going to be people complaining about ECM.
I prefer the Mad Dog, but I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Hellbringer first.

Maybe i am worse than you at reading people's voices (and podcast's summaries ) but i thought he said something like "Sure, we'll add new Clan 'Mechs, i'm sure you know what the first obvious choise is, the Mad Dog / Vulture". I should listen to it again.

[Keeshu]

CyclonerM, on 21 July 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

Maybe i am worse than you at reading people's voices (and podcast's summaries ) but i thought he said something like "Sure, we'll add new Clan 'Mechs, i'm sure you know what the first obvious choise is, the Mad Dog / Vulture". I should listen to it again.

Keeshu, on 17 July 2014 - 10:56 PM, said:

Phil: I have a question for you Russ, and this is a serious question. When.... Will I get.... my Shadow. Cat? Whe-When is that happening? When is, or is there an idea, or do you wanna sneak peek to the people in the live audience, cause they're here for you, listening to you right now, the next clan mech, or mechs, or package. Which honestly I was actually quite suprised that there hasn't been a reinforcement pack persay like the phoenix you know.
Bombadill: Everybody wants to know when the Mad Dog is coming, yes.
Phil: The Mad Dog, and uh.... Hellbringer, and actually I wanna see mechs we haven't seen for the clan side in a previous mechwarrior title, or haven't seen them since Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries. Do you have any thoughts, words, descriptions?
Russ: Welp, no (combined laughter) not really. Nothing I'm going to toss out here today other than I'm gonna give a little love to the Inner Sphere players and just say that the new chassis is an Inner Sphere chassis. So, that's that. As far as clans are concerned, I will say though it's quite obvious which ones the next ones will be. There's no question that, for instance, the Mad Dog / what do you call it again?
Phil: Vulture
Russ: Thank you. Is an obvious choice. It's a favorite of mine. I think it looks great. It's like the new Archer, right, it's so cool. Um, and the uh Hellbringer because of obvious reasons, because it fits a tonnage slot we don't have for clans yet and basically is, is just it uses the Summoner legs and there's a lot of reuse there and it's effective for us. And then it starts getting into some of the other ones you mentioned. Shadow Hawk (yes, he accidently said that) and everything I do find it interesting though you mentioned um.
Phil: Ice Ferret
Russ: Yeah I guess what do you call it?
Phil: Shadow cat

I basically listened to it a bazillion times to easily see what they said. This is a shortened version of the clan talk, basically just cut the part out about clan packages and whatever else. Though, text does not properly depict how someone says something, but not like that matters really, all this information is nothing concrete anyways.

[Pariah Devalis]

Sounded to me like both are equally possible as the next one in line for the Clans. Both fill a currently vacant tonnage for the Clan mechs, one offers utility, one offers... a lighter version of the Timber Wolf with a potentially better set of hitboxes?

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 21 July 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

a lighter version of the Timber Wolf with a potentially better set of hitboxes?

A potential rival for the title of coolest OmniMech in BattleTech.

Is that not enough?

Oddly, the Hellbringer has some fans like you and my Star Captain, but i totally want the Mad Dog over it.

[FearNotDeath]

Really want the mad dog been thinking of cool splat builds for hit and runs with it. What would I worry about? Well I can admit when a mech is not optimal and it would hurt for the mad dog to fall into the category of misfit robots..

[Keeshu]

FearNotDeath, on 21 July 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

Really want the mad dog been thinking of cool splat builds for hit and runs with it. What would I worry about? Well I can admit when a mech is not optimal and it would hurt for the mad dog to fall into the category of misfit robots..

I worry about it being the "misfit" of mechs as well. I'm just really hoping for A+C variants as they offer a lot more customization, and the A allows the Mad Dog to do a lot of things many mechs cannot do because of 6 missle hardpoints. Also, if I'm doing a dual ballistic build (that isn't gauss) for the clans, I'd rather have ballistics in the arms.

A couple days ago I felt like brainstorming up some builds that the Mad Dog would be able to do that the Timber Wolf cannot. However, excluding double AC/20, it all revolves around missles. I'm going to assume A (1 Energy, 1 ballistic, 6 missle) and C (2 Ballistic) are the variants we get, since B doesn't really offer anything good and outclasses the prime (5 energy, 3 missle), 1 extra energy only goes so far. B also doesn't do anything the Timber Wolf cannot other than having 5 energy in the arms (whereas timby needs to use the torsos for anything more than 4)


First off, LRM boat potential (remember to shoot only 2 at a time):
Timber Wolf Max: 70 missles - 1 LRM 20, 1 LRM 15 per torso (Not enough slots for 2 LRM 20s), 10.5 tons remain
Timber Wolf Effective tonnage-wise: 2 LRM 15s per torso.13.5 tons remain
Mad Dog Max: 100 missles - 1 LRM 20, 2 LRM 15 per torso. 4 tons remain
Mad Dog Effective tonnnage-wise: 90 missles - 3 LRM 15 . 7 tons remain
(double LRM 20 per torso only lets you have 1 more ton than triple LRM 15 per torso)


Builds that catch my attention:
Dual ac/20 - For the Lulz (though Jagermech probably does it better imo).
"Effective" LRM boat - Spamming 2 LRM 15s after the heat-scale wears off sounds like a lot of fun, constant stream of huge missles (good luck with heat though). Considering I like to spot for myself (<3 Catapult), and don't like being a slow assault that will become helpless from being left behind. I might actually strip off a few tons of armor and do this for the lulz,or just have 5 tons ammo with 2 ER mediums (or 4 ER smalls) to change the face of the battle early game, but still distract/finish off people when I'm out of ammo.

The seemingly most balanced build, and it's probably something I will use often. 2 LRM 20 (may downgrade to 15s), 4 SRM 6, 4 ER mediums, with plenty of LRM ammo.
The massive anti-light build - 6 SSRM 6, 2 ER Medium (or 4 ER Smalls)


For more experimental builds:
LRM boat with some teeth - 4 LRM 15, 2 SSRM 4, 2 ER Medium (or 4 ER Smalls)

Heat problematic, but it's not a DPS build, they are poking/harass builds, that also keep people from getting too close. Put more heat sinks or ammo in depending on how long you want to wait on re-fire time for long range weapons, or if you plan on getting in close range often:
PPC poker - 2 ER PPC, 6 SRM 6
Large Laser anti-light poker - 2 ER Large Lasers, 6 SSRM6.



I'm pretty sure that's all the main Mad Dog builds that Timber Wolf cannot do. I might be missing one or two.
As long as we get the Mad Dog A, it should be able to safely have it's own place in the game. Whatever the case will be though, I will pilot it no matter what because it is my favorite mech.