26 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

M0rpHeu5, on 15 July 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

I am asking the clan owners couse they seem to me like they are straight up better but since i didn't have the chance to use them myself i cannot be sure.
Aslo the IS LRMs are limited by the tubes of the hardpoint they are in, does tube limitation mean anything for the clan LRMs?

Streaming fire vs Single Burst.

IS LRMs are hands down better because they fire all at once in a single burst and consequently all hit the target in one single burst. Also because they are all generally fired simultaneously, AMS is much less effective due to a much more limited time frame allowed for them to engage and destroy missiles. Also there ends up being less time to evade the missiles and because the missiles all land in a bunch, the damage is much more concentrated into the Center Mass of the targeted mech.

Clan LRMs stream out which means it take a few seconds for all LRMs to zero in on the target. During this few seconds it often is fairly easy for the targeted mech to get into cover and evade at least part of the incoming missiles. Also because they are coming in a stream AMS is about 2-3 times as effective at shooting them down. Lastly this stream also has the effect of spreading damage all over the targeted mech making Clan LRM fire much easier to bear. Basically you can take more Clan LRM fire for a longer duration without suffering critical damage or death.

[Karamarka]

IS LRM beats AMS

[bluepiglet]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

As to 12 small pulse lasers... its absolutely not easy to play well nor is it particularly strong overall.

Everyone will take whatever you say seriously now.

[TamCoan]

bluepiglet, on 15 July 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

Balanced? Things ain't meant to be balanced now and it will remain so for a good while. The players who refused to pay for these Clan meches have been assigned a new job which is usually occupied my AI in many MMOG, to act as live targets for "Premium" players.

Just watch how things are going to happen. The stronkth of Clan weapons will only grow, until the day they come available for C-Bills when a massive nerf stick awaits.

Ah, there's the standard "clan OP, PTW" post. I was afraid we were going to have an actual discussion for once.

bluepiglet, on 15 July 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

Everyone will take whatever you say seriously now.

He is totally correct. 12 small lasers is better than 12 small pulse.

Edited by TamCoan, 15 July 2014 - 01:15 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Lykaon, on 15 July 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

However,while this is correct there are a couple of odd quirks not mentioned with ripple fire Clan LRMs.

The AMS fires off near constantly leaving the AMS dry about 5 minutes after contact in LRM heavy games.Also I.S. AMS has half the ammo of clan AMS this will be a bigger issue once we no longer have mixed IS and Clan teams.

Clan LRMs have half the tonnage of I.S. counterparts and require fewer critical slots.This allows Clan LRM launchers to be added in on top of another more specialized build while I.S. mechs will more often than not be purpose built for LRMs clan mechs may have an LRM launcher or two simply because they fit.Since the clan LRMs do not become 100% useless at sub 180m ranges I will count on seeing brawlers with LRMs built on clan chassis.This means higher number of clan LRM launchers will be fielded and on mechs capable of defending themselves in a brawl. More LRMs vs more effective AMS = null overall effect.The AMS shoots off like crazy for the first third of a match then it's empty.

When all things are considered the clan LRMs are vastly superior to I.S. counterparts. with having one fault that has a useful side effect (ripple fire prevents concentration of damage yet drains AMS ammo) Everything else about clan LRMs is great.

You have a point but your taking that point way to far.

The AMS running out of ammo faster is really a non-issue when the same amount of AMS is taking out 3 clan LRMs for every 1 IS LRM. Sure you end up with a little less AMS coverage late game but by late game the LRM spam has considerable lessened due to racks begining to run dry.

Also your correct about the weight of the Clan Launchers. However because the Clan LRMs in general are about 20-30% less effective overall, a Clan mech has to compensate for this somehow.

Option 1 is to equip more tubes (add in an an additional launcher) so it has a higher throw weight which will be required to gain the same per salvo damage and effectiveness.

Obviously if you add another launcher, you add more weight which offsets the advantage in weight a Clan launcher provide. Additional if you add more launchers you also add more heat which requires more heat sinks so you are adding even more weight or heat whatever you prefer.

Option 2 is to equip more ammo so that over time, you are able to output the same total amounts of damage an IS Mech equiped LRMs over the course of the battle.

Well to start off with, more Ammo equals more weight, again offseting the weight advantage. Also with this option you have to consider target exposure time. An enemy target might only be out of cover for say 10-12 seconds where it can actually be effectively hit by LRMs. In this situation, having more ammo doesn't offer an advantage because of the limited exposure time only allowing for 3 salvos to actually hit. Since we have already established that IS LRMs might be 30% more effective, having to fire 4 Clan LRM salvos to make up for that difference doesn't help when you only have time to hit with 3.

Now this illustrates exactly what the problem is with most balancing discussions. For anyone to discuss balance, you have to look at any and all situations where two weapon system might be used and look at how they perform in all those situations. Many times what looks good on paper doesn't translate well to actual conditions and Clan LRMs are a prime example of this.

[EvilCow]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

In your case, I'd argue that your IS LRM stats are weighted down by time using LRM's before you knew how to use them well - lots of wasted shots, before you learned when to fire, and when to hold fire.

I can assure you that I have been launching LRMs for ages now... and the stats reset is very recent.

Probably it is just my usage pattern but I don't see any reason to use an IS mech as missile platform and have to invest more than double tonnage for the same result.

ECM KitFox with 2xLRM15 is the way to go.

BTW, could you post a screen of your current stats and old stats? apparently you have some interesting numbers.

Edited by EvilCow, 16 July 2014 - 01:11 AM.

[Lyoto Machida]

EvilCow, on 15 July 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

I my stats I see a significantly better accuracy for clan LRMs compared to the equivalent IS weapon. Apparently the stream is not a disadvantage as many seem to think.

For example I have the LRM15 at 22.47% and CLRM15 at 34.66% (no Artemis). The difference is there also for LRM5s, 28.20% vs 33.06%.

Strange, isn't it? anybody, please publish your accuracy numbers for launchers that have accumulated at least some hours of usage.

That's relatively bad accuracy for the IS LRM15 though. My non Artemis LRM 15 is at 40.90% (5 games since the wipe) and 37.69% in 423 games/1 day 17 hours pre-wipe. IS ALRM15 post wipe is 40.52% in 136 games/14+ hours.

C-LRM15 is 37.03% but only in 7 total games. Didn't like the Clan LRMs so I yanked them off everything...may go back on that now that the minimum range thing has changed but I don't really care for the stream firing.