104 replies to this topic

[Clit Beastwood]

Sephlock, on 17 July 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

It was the most fun thing in the game, rivaling prepatch Clan play on the test servers.

I wasn't here for CB, I didn't know about it (MWO that is)

What happened if.. you stacked mechs (you know, mech totem pole) and someone knocked down the bottom mech?

Edited by Fierostetz, 17 July 2014 - 01:55 PM.

[Sephlock]

Fierostetz, on 17 July 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

I wasn't here for CB, I didn't know about it (MWO that is)

What happened if.. you stacked mechs (you know, mech totem pole) and someone knocked down the bottom mech?

I would imagine that the top mech would fall down and possibly hit one of the fallen mechs, causing it to fall, and after a while (or maybe when the first two mechs collided) they would start teleport-glitching around on the ground.

[Vassago Rain]

Fierostetz, on 17 July 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

I wasn't here for CB, I didn't know about it (MWO that is)

What happened if.. you stacked mechs (you know, mech totem pole) and someone knocked down the bottom mech?

We will never know.

https://www.youtube....&v=StHqBi6NY1I#!

[Sephlock]

Seriously, playing Ben Hur in a Jenner was just the best damn thing ever, and darting through enemy lines felt more like the Death Star trench run than the bumper cars extravaganza that it is now (aside from when you are piloting Clan lights, in which case it feels like piloting a minivan with two missing wheels- one front and one back- through a warzone).

Seriously, playing Ben Hur in a Jenner was just the best damn thing ever, and darting through enemy lines felt more like the Death Star trench run than the bumper cars extravaganza that it is now (aside from when you are piloting Clan lights, in which case it feels like piloting a minivan with two missing wheels- one front and one back- through a warzone).

Vassago Rain, on 17 July 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

We will never know.

https://www.youtube....;v=StHqBi6NY1I#!

FTFY

[Clit Beastwood]

Sephlock, on 17 July 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

I would imagine that the top mech would fall down and possibly hit one of the fallen mechs, causing it to fall, and after a while (or maybe when the first two mechs collided) they would start teleport-glitching around on the ground.

that sounds beautiful!

Sephlock, on 17 July 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

I would imagine that the top mech would fall down and possibly hit one of the fallen mechs, causing it to fall, and after a while (or maybe when the first two mechs collided) they would start teleport-glitching around on the ground.

that sounds beautiful! I'd hope they clip through one-another so it's like a mech version of brundle-fly

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

As has been mentioned many time before, most if not all the earlier attempts at knockdown failed as that code and positional data just wasn't up to the task. In the past the Mech's 'popping' into different locations after a knockdown was problematic. Quite a few changes have taken place in both of these aspects now and we should be in a much better place to start testing a new dynamic for this collision type effect.

- Reference friendly Mech's 'tripping' over each other in close proximity,
~ Lore states that all Mech's have collision avoidance built in and rarely 'bump' into other objects unless directed to.
~ Offer what we have now for Mech's near buildings or objects, sliding by with a possibility of small surface damage to both.
~ And add in the sounds for this effect, collision warning, scraping crunch noises. (but not necessary)
~ Only works this way with friendly Mech's or terrain objects.

- Reference dedicated 'Charge' tactics,
~ Physics and Mass should rule here, but terrain, elevation differences, ground angle, surface traction, all need to play a role.
~ Sadly I don't think this engine has the required code for all this to be implemented, so some game play shortcuts may/will need to be implemented or addressed. If it can be accomplished in a method that works with the amount of moving Mech's, the network, static objects, collision and recovery it should add one more option for Pilots to consider while engaged in close proximity battles. (some of these will not be full 'run in' attacks)

~ Possibly offer a unique 'Charge' dynamic mode selectable for the attacker.
~ But to counter, what may be 'alerted by Betty as a Charge', offer the defender a 'Brace' dynamic.
(This falls directly into how the Lore played out, with Mech's bracing for impacts and weapons fire, and how the 'balance' effect was handled by the Pilots nuro-helmet.)

Side notes here:
- The method we see very fast Mech's move around the Battlefield is not how they should be moving, moving at a high/extreme 'full speed' should have some reduction on your turning ability and radius of turn. Sure you can run at 150kph, but mostly in straight lines, if you need to sharply turn you'll have to slow down or risk overshooting the location you were aiming for.
(this could be an automated function driven by the Mech's speed and loss of turning ability.)

~ Additionally the faster the Mech moves, approaching full speed, there should be a constant heat build up that does not fade till this speed is reduced. Engine and heat-sink dependent.
( example: full speed, standard engine, standard Hs @ full speed = 15% constant heat produced )
~ Reduce to normal 'cruising speed' and all additional heat drops off. Not what we see now as everyone is full on or full off the speed. And places some restrictions on running at top speed or using energy/heat intensive systems/weapons.


Just some ideas,
9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 17 July 2014 - 03:02 PM.

[The Dreaded Baron B Killer]

Fierostetz, on 17 July 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

- What data is wrong? The relative speed was the sum of speed A and speed B - I don't know how you think this is wrong? You can google relativistic speed if you'd like.
- I work at a game dev college using Cryengine3 daily. If PGI is ever going to implement more realistic physics, it's going to be a *long* time. They probably won't though, because the playerbase would revolt.
- 137kph is the speed of an un-speedtweaked spider with an xl255 (max engine for 5d), an un-speedtweaked raven 3l with an xl295 (max engine) or a little more than an un-speedtweaked commando 2d with the biggest engine. So, you're seeing mechs that are running max engine, without speedtweak. Server light population is really low right now, many of those running lights are new and leveling them (thus slower) or running clan lights (which are slow). Or veterans dropping in groups against other veteran groups. Clan lights being slow is/was a major complaint about them (because all a light has is speed). Go watch a MWO twitch.tv stream - if you're lucky and catch anyone running IS lights (edmeister or errodien stream in lights a lot, as do I and several others) you'll see normal light builds, post speed-tweak. I rarely see IS lights in-drop running less than the max engine, and I drop 3-4 hours a day. If you look up light builds on these very forums, they're almost always packing max engine. The "meta" most certainly has not shifted to favor slower lights.

I'm not upset about our exchange, I enjoy the debate my suspicion is that, if you're seeing lights topping out at 137, you're likely not playing with anyone that's gotten speed tweak yet. If you'd like to drop with myself and my team, feel free to friend me! You won't see any IS lights moving slower than maybe140, most are 150+ or bust.

Here's a few of my youtube videos for your reference, if you want - just mine, you can search for more if you'd like
pugging in 150kph ember
farting around in a 152kph spider
practicing in a 152kph spider
farting around in a 152kph spider

I can grab more recent ones if you want, but I rarely bother uploading spider drops to youtube anymore. I have plenty more archived on my twitch stream (linked in my sig).

Here's some screenshots - I know what I'm talking about!

the assumptions you made about the speeds and whatnot my friend. with the maps being the way they are, and with obstacle/mesh hangs/invisible doodads, mixed with the general builds (remember, we are discussing pug here, not higher ELO play, since they are the majority) it's rare you find people running mastered builds focused on being quick and nimble with a hard sting...how many people are running PPC ECM spiders for example?

The factor of speed aside, the data that didn't add up to me is armor vs mass vs inertia vs Angle of trajectory.

You have a valid point in that if a light ran into the back of an atlas leg, the impact at full speed (or for arguments sake over 100KPH) should very much cause the Atlas to drop to one knee. However, the impact of said object, with the inertia vs the mass of the object, calculating the armor of the atlas VS the CT of the light.... the Light mech should explode it's engine.. whilst maybe removing 40-60% of the armor of said leg. Reason being at that kind of impact the inertia and energy transference of mass would cause the light mech to be knocked back, thus the entire explosion would not be at zero point. If it did then by all means it should take the leg out.

However... if a light mech charged into the front of the leg, this should not be substantial enough to knock down the mech, nor do significant damage, since i imagine the front of the limbs like the torsos are more heavily armored.

Using proper physics would cause players to actually pilot. Note with the game in it's current function... no one is really piloting, they're playing a FPS with mechs. Proper physics (not mech football lol) would take advantage of things that the game needs to make it feel like you're piloting a war machcine... I'm mostly an atlas guy, and I really don't feel like my 100 tons is an advantage in the form beyond having more armor, and being a walking pinata due to the size of me and said armor.

Note I do see the occasional mech running high speed and break into panic trying to land a hit on the slippery weasel.. its just astounding how many times I've managed to land a good head or CT shot on a jenner because his build was focused on dishing out pain and not being nimble.

I don't doubt you or question you, but Like i said problem is you were looking at your current ELO and tier of players. As someone who's been playing several months, and improved on and off, I have seen all sorts of interesting players.. from the more elite scary kind.. to the "what the hell is he thinking" kind. And the majority of pugs are the latter.

I'll add you & you can see my ******* killing skillz....lol... or lack of.

[Ansgar Odinson]

I keep seeing this relative speed post that makes the presumption that the two mechs combined speed makes for a huge collision. This is not the case. I will explain once again. Energy is transferred equally between two objects provided they are the same mass. If one object has significantly more mass than the other then the object with less mass is forced to absorb a lot more of the combined energy. So lets say two mechs of equal mass collide each going 30 kph. You take the combined speed / energy (60 kph) and split it evenly among the two making it as if each mech had struck an immovable object at 30kph. Now if the speeds remain constant but one mech were twice the mass of the other then we have to skew the tables a bit. At this point the combined energy is shifted mostly to the smaller mech. Without doing the full equation lets just say the heavier mech absorbs enough energy to equal a 15kph collision while the smaller mech absorbs enough energy to equal a 60kph collision (this is a very rough estimate) There is no way a light mech should be able to bowl over an atlas no matter how fast it is traveling, And if a light mech could gather enough speed and energy to bowl over an atlas the results would be devastating to the light mech, it would be obliterated. At the very least the pilot would be thrown around the cockpit so bad that the inside of the mech would look like a bloody marry. Now that being said Cryengine cant handle that level of physics but it can simulate a dumbed down version of this. It can simply apply a point value system (say 1 pt for each 10 tons) multiplied by 1 for each 10kph. when mechs collide simply take the combined points and spread them evenly if the mechs are in the same weight class, 1 to 2 for a single weight class difference, 1 to 3 for a two weight class difference and 1 to 4 for a three weight class difference. With a system like this if a jenner were running at an atlas and the atlas were moving 50kph and the jenner 130 then a total of 860 points would be generated. Of those 860 points the atlas would absorb 215 and the jenner would absorb 645. Then create a threshold of "physics points or collision points" For each mech. If that threshold is exceeded the the mech falls. In this scenario I would see the atlas maybe suffering a little screen shake and the jenner tumbling.

Edited by Ansgar Odinson, 17 July 2014 - 08:36 PM.

[Clit Beastwood]

Ansgar Odinson, on 17 July 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

I keep seeing this relative speed post that makes the presumption that the two mechs combined speed makes for a huge collision. This is not the case. I will explain once again. Energy is transferred equally between two objects provided they are the same speed. If one object has significantly more mass than the other then the object with less mass is forced to absorb a lot more of the combined energy. So lets say two mechs of equal mass collide each going 30 kph. You take the combined speed / energy (60 kph) and split it evenly among the two making it as if each mech had struck an immovable object at 30kph. Now if the speeds remain constant but one mech were twice the mass of the other then we have to skew the tables a bit. At this point the combined energy is shifted mostly to the smaller mech. Without doing the full equation lets just say the heavier mech absorbs enough energy to equal a 15kph collision while the smaller mech absorbs enough energy to equal a 60kph collision (this is a very rough estimate) There is no way a light mech should be able to bowl over an atlas no matter how fast it is traveling, And if a light mech could gather enough speed and energy to bowl over an atlas the results would be devastating to the light mech, it would be obliterated. At the very least the pilot would be thrown around the cockpit so bad that the inside of the mech would look like a bloody marry. Now that being said Cryengine cant handle that level of physics but it can simulate a dumbed down version of this. It can simply apply a point value system (say 1 pt for each 10 tons) multiplied by 1 for each 10kph. when mechs collide simply take the combined points and spread them evenly if the mechs are in the same weight class, 1 to 2 for a single weight class difference, 1 to 3 for a two weight class difference and 1 to 4 for a three weight class difference. With a system like this if a jenner were running at an atlas and the atlas were moving 50kph and the jenner 130 then a total of 860 points would be generated. Of those 860 points the atlas would absorb 215 and the jenner would absorb 645. Then create a threshold of "physics points or collision points" For each mech. If that threshold is exceeded the the mech falls. In this scenario I would see the atlas maybe suffering a little screen shake and the jenner tumbling.

I'm not alluding to any specific result other than *some* damage transfer would occur- the atlas isn't going to walk away unscathed. What I'm saying is 145-ish tons in a collision at-speed would affect both parties in a substantial way. I think more is being read into my original post than I intended. A midget half your weight tackling your legs from behind is probably going to knock you over.

[Tezcatli]

It'd be nice at least if we didn't end up warping when we come in contact with each other.

[Ansgar Odinson]

Quote

I'm not alluding to any specific result other than *some* damage transfer would occur- the atlas isn't going to walk away unscathed. What I'm saying is 145-ish tons in a collision at-speed would affect both parties in a substantial way. I think more is being read into my original post than I intended. A midget half your weight tackling your legs from behind is probably going to knock you over.

You are right that the atlas is not walking away unscathed, but it would not take substantial damage. The amount of the combined energy which is transferred to the object with less mass is exponential. At less than half mass a great majority Is being absorbed by the smaller object. Keep In mind also that an object with greater mass has a higher threshold for how much energy it can absorb before catastrophic failure of structure. So not only is the ligter mech receiving a great deal more energy (as it is the easiest path for the energy to escape the system) but it has a much lower threshold. The atlas in your scenario would be hardly effected by comparison. Also remember in your midget analog that the midget has more control of weight distribution. He can lower his shoulder and plan his center of mass in just the right spot. Now imagine the same midget walking stiff and upright directly at a man over twice his mass and that is a much better small scale model. The midget will run head first (higher than his center of mass) into the larger man's center of mass. The midget is bouncing off and landing on his but while the larger man may be bruised and a little shaken. The only way he is tripping in this scenario is from another unseen variable such as miss stepping or doing his best not to hurt the smaller man.

Edited by Ansgar Odinson, 17 July 2014 - 10:09 PM.

[Galenit]

Fierostetz, on 17 July 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

I'm not alluding to any specific result other than *some* damage transfer would occur- the atlas isn't going to walk away unscathed. What I'm saying is 145-ish tons in a collision at-speed would affect both parties in a substantial way. I think more is being read into my original post than I intended. A midget half your weight tackling your legs from behind is probably going to knock you over.

t=1/2mv²

Mass is not that relevant, but speed is, the little ² is the problem.

Atlas, 100 tons, 50 kph
100000kg/2*13,9m/s²=9.660.500j

Centurion, 50 tons, 50 kph
50000kg/2*13,9m/2²=4.830.250j

Centurion, 50 tons, 100 kph
50000kg/2*27,8m/s²=19.321.000j

Commando, 25 tons, 170kph
25000/2*47,2m/s²=27.848.000j

The commando has 3 times the kinetic energy of the atlas.
If both collide frontal, the atlas leg is nearly gone, his gyro (side/centertorso) gets also damage and the commando is a flat piece of metal wrapped around of what is left of the atlas leg.

Edited by Galenit, 18 July 2014 - 12:32 AM.

[Aurien Titus]

ArmandTulsen, on 16 July 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

Why does this crap keep getting posted whenever there's any mention of bringing back knockdowns?

We get it, they didn't implement it properly when they introduced it. That doesn't mean they shouldn't come back.

Because straw man arguments are the best.

Sephlock, on 16 July 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

Apparently you don't get it at all.

The reason it was removed and won't come back is right there for you to see.

Aside from bad interactions with the netcode (sometimes you'd teleport while on the ground) it was just fine- and fun as hell.

What reason is that really? I see two videos from when Dragons were considered 100 ton 'mechs for collision purposes and then another video of an 8 man group with voip versus a pug group without voip. Both of which have since changed. Dragons didn't last long being considered as 100 ton 'mechs for collision, a couple of weeks before they patched that out. And large premades no longer get to fight pugs. Do you really think that without knockdown that match would have been any better for the pugs? When you can isolate and out number your opponent, you're going to win.

Edited by Aurien Titus, 18 July 2014 - 07:43 AM.

[Wolfways]

FupDup, on 15 July 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

Start up the game and hover your mouse over the "Play Now" button, and you'll see why the piece I snipped out is wrong.

Doesn't anyone just play mechs they like?
I actually think lights are quite powerful. I just don't play them because i don't consider them real mechs (other than my RVN-3L scout/EW mech).
Maybe the numbers aren't always "how good the class is" but could just be "how much people prefer this class".

[FupDup]

Wolfways, on 18 July 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

Doesn't anyone just play mechs they like?
I actually think lights are quite powerful. I just don't play them because i don't consider them real mechs (other than my RVN-3L scout/EW mech).
Maybe the numbers aren't always "how good the class is" but could just be "how much people prefer this class".

Under that premise, that means not very many people like teh lightz, while everyone and his mother's dog has a stiffy for big robots.

[Sephlock]

Aurien Titus, on 18 July 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

Because straw man arguments are the best.



What reason is that really? I see two videos from when Dragons were considered 100 ton 'mechs for collision purposes and then another video of an 8 man group with voip versus a pug group without voip. Both of which have since changed. Dragons didn't last long being considered as 100 ton 'mechs for collision, a couple of weeks before they patched that out. And large premades no longer get to fight pugs. Do you really think that without knockdown that match would have been any better for the pugs? When you can isolate and out number your opponent, you're going to win.

The devs got a personal taste of it and didn't like it at all.

Similar things happened with Ultra autocannon jaming and the circumstances that lead to the introduction of ghost heat.

[Wolfways]

FupDup, on 18 July 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

*snip* everyone and his mother's dog has a stiffy for big robots.

Well i don't know about you but that's why i play MWO

[The Dreaded Baron B Killer]

FupDup, on 18 July 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

Under that premise, that means not very many people like teh lightz, while everyone and his mother's dog has a stiffy for big robots.

cmon.. do you think Pacific rim would have been half as cool if the Jaegers were 1/8th the size they were in the movie.

We love big stompy marauding war machines.

[stjobe]

FupDup, on 18 July 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

Under that premise, that means not very many people like teh lightz, while everyone and his mother's dog has a stiffy for big robots.

Wolfways, on 18 July 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

Well i don't know about you but that's why i play MWO

BaronBastardKiller, on 18 July 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

We love big stompy marauding war machines.

And I like the smaller, quicker ones. Guess I'm a 1%-er

If I ever got my hands on a MWO Wasp or Stinger I'd be a happy man... Alas, it's not to be; may a thousand Fleas descend on the offices of Harmony Gold.

[Wolfways]

BaronBastardKiller, on 18 July 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

cmon.. do you think Pacific rim would have been half as cool if the Jaegers were 1/8th the size they were in the movie.

We love big stompy marauding war machines.

Pacific Rim was cool?...

Haven't seen it tbh, looked like Transformers.