15 replies to this topic

[NetherlightWolf]

So with the changes now to missiles doing pinpoint damage. I have noticed in my matches that certain groups of LRM teams have taken to base camping. Why this is a problem is as follows:

Defense Turrets seem to be bugged in that not only will they continue fire, and hit you even outside the normal 1000m range of LRMs, but now since they remain targetted on you. Certain LRM premades are using this to basically have a free constant lock by feeding off the turret's targetting regardless of radar deprivation or any other module or LoS with no other spotter beyond the turret.

Now personal opinion, LRM users resorting to this tactic, deserve an automatic ban for their actions as it's blantant exploiting. I'm not PGI so I don't know what they'll do about this. At the very least they need to hotfix the turret's targetting and force them to respect LoS, and range limitations.

[Girth Fillmore]

I don't know that you can use a turret's lock to establish one of your own, can you? It's news to me if this is the case.

[Evil Tiki Tiki]

As far as I am aware, that even before this new patch, if a mech was attacking the turrets while not under ECM, the turret would target the mech. This allowed LRM Mechs to manually target them and fire away.

Edited by Evil Tiki Tiki, 15 July 2014 - 03:16 PM.

[NetherlightWolf]

Evil Tiki Tiki, on 15 July 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

As far as I am aware, that even before this new patch, if a mech was attacking the turrets while not under ECM, the turret would target the mech. This allowed LRM Mechs to manually target them and fire away.

They will also target if you get too close. I think 600m is the "aggro range" of turrets, and once they establish a lock, they will not drop it until it, or the mech targetted, is destroyed even if an allied mech shoots it. It will be fixated on you.

Edit: Saw my run-on sentence after I posted. Fixed, derp.

Edited by Strypewolf, 15 July 2014 - 03:46 PM.

[SolasTau]

What he says here is accurate. I play a Catapult a lot of the time, and one of the fastest ways for me to see where enemy 'mechs are is if they are attacking our base. If I'm in range, I do like to use the opportunity to crack off a few indirect attacks. I'm usually not in range, though.

[NetherlightWolf]

sneeking, on 15 July 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

if they won't switch target can you exploit that by sending in lights to taunt them while your heavy and assult pinpoint alpha them ?

dead turrets are good turrets lol

While I would agree whole heartily on this, but the majority of players seem to only think of themselves. If it's not shooting at them, why should they care? I've seen this attitude rife in pugs, and even some in premades, though in premades, it's much less so overall.

Edited by Strypewolf, 15 July 2014 - 04:43 PM.

[Modo44]

This is obviously a deliberate game mechanic. As stupid as it is (both base LRM range, and the constant auto-locks were mentioned many times as problematic), it does not in any way qualify as an exploit.

[NetherlightWolf]

Modo44, on 15 July 2014 - 08:14 PM, said:

This is obviously a deliberate game mechanic. As stupid as it is (both base LRM range, and the constant auto-locks were mentioned many times as problematic), it does not in any way qualify as an exploit.

I'm sorry disagree with you. However, since turrets seem to ignore things like LoS and even radar deprivation. You're using a bugged mechanic in the game, in this case defense turrets, to achieve a gain (free missile locks that the other mech can't do anything about aside from hopefully destroying the turret or have friends that destroy it. However, since LRM boats are camping the base, easier said than done.). That, by definition, is an exploit. Your arguement that it is in any way by design, is sorely invalid and secondarily, makes me suspect you're one of those LRM players that abuses it and doesn't want to lose their unfair advantage.

Edited by Strypewolf, 15 July 2014 - 09:32 PM.

[red fury15]

зашел в бой викинуло из игры ,повторно в бой так и не получилось зайти ,выкидывало ангар все время ,мех прицел ведет все время вправо и на старте мех сам сразу бежит вперед ,патч ничего не исправил ,а только добавил ошибок.Теперь при открытии карты в бою мех начинает двигатся ,а раньше он стоял на месте

[NetherlightWolf]

Here's another exploit to add to the pile. Now big groups have decided that they're not satisified with having a fair match against an equal sized group. They're now doing this 'sync dropping' tactic in seperate small groups so they end up on the same side more often than not and continue getting their kicks out of curb stomping small groups and PUGs.

What this has resulted in is I can't even queue with my friends anymore without going through curb stomp match after curb stomp match thanks to this under-handed, disgraceful tactic by people that apparently want to gang bully small groups because they can't seem to win against an equal team. I'm now at the point of not even wanting to play MWO anymore because what is the point of trying to work as a team with a few friends if this is the result.

PGI, I honestly hope you read this, and take it to heart. Groups that are doing this. I'm not saying it's everyone, but it definitely seems to have gone viral, and it's going to do nothing but run people off your game. Stop leaving loopholes in your changes that allow for exploitation as that is what will ruin this game.

Edited by Strypewolf, 16 July 2014 - 02:15 PM.

[Anais Opal]

Girth Fillmore, on 15 July 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

I don't know that you can use a turret's lock to establish one of your own, can you? It's news to me if this is the case.

Indeed you can, the turrets provide a radar ping, Mech type and variant, distance and the ability to lock that target, what they don't provide is target damage and loadout information.

They basically behave like a NARC and yes once they have acquired a lock they cut through ECM too. Its actually been like that for a couple of months except no-one noticed.

[Anais Opal]

Strypewolf, on 16 July 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

Here's another exploit to add to the pile. Now big groups have decided that they're not satisified with having a fair match against an equal sized group. They're now doing this 'sync dropping' tactic in seperate small groups so they end up on the same side more often than not and continue getting their kicks out of curb stomping small groups and PUGs.

What this has resulted in is I can't even queue with my friends anymore without going through curb stomp match after curb stomp match thanks to this under-handed, disgraceful tactic by people that apparently want to gang bully small groups because they can't seem to win against an equal team. I'm now at the point of not even wanting to play MWO anymore because what is the point of trying to work as a team with a few friends if this is the result.

PGI, I honestly hope you read this, and take it to heart. Groups that are doing this. I'm not saying it's everyone, but it definitely seems to have gone viral, and it's going to do nothing but run people off your game. Stop leaving loopholes in your changes that allow for exploitation as that is what will ruin this game.

Sync dropping has been around forever, all units do it, or have done it, the problem here is that the MM is only supposed to allow one premade group per team from 2-10 so once lance of 2+2 solo or 4 with 2 lances of solo players. or 2 to 8 with one lance of 4 solo or 2 to 10 with 2 solo and any combination in between. You need to ask yourself, am i against 2 4's synced (unlikely) or a single 8 which is more likely.

As more matches start or player numbers dwindle on the MM queue, then the rules get loosened.

At least, this is my understanding of the Mystical MatchMaker.

[NetherlightWolf]

GlycerineOxide, on 16 July 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

Sync dropping has been around forever, all units do it, or have done it, the problem here is that the MM is only supposed to allow one premade group per team from 2-10 so once lance of 2+2 solo or 4 with 2 lances of solo players. or 2 to 8 with one lance of 4 solo or 2 to 10 with 2 solo and any combination in between. You need to ask yourself, am i against 2 4's synced (unlikely) or a single 8 which is more likely.

As more matches start or player numbers dwindle on the MM queue, then the rules get loosened.

At least, this is my understanding of the Mystical MatchMaker.

The problem is in the situation I am presenting here is that myself and my friends make up, at most, 2/3/4 team. The rest of the team would be straight PuGs, and we've been put up against 8-12 man premades. Now as I understand it, that is something that shouldn't be happening especially after the latest changes to the MM, and yet, still is. The problem remains the same in either case.

Just to be sure I am not just that bad at playing, I did a solo queue. Got 5 kills, 3 assists, 12 component destructions, 611 damage dealt. Nothing insane, but respectable. Match ended with a 12-7 win, instead of 0-12/1-12/2-12 losses getting shoved down mine and my friend's throats back to back constantly by teams that were obviously way more than 4 coordinated with voice chat.

Also latest cases were today during prime time so the MM rules should not have been relaxed.

Edited by Strypewolf, 16 July 2014 - 08:43 PM.

[Anais Opal]

Strypewolf, on 16 July 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

The problem is in the situation I am presenting here is that myself and my friends make up, at most, 2/3/4 team. The rest of the team would be straight PuGs, and we've been put up against 8-12 man premades. Now as I understand it, that is something that shouldn't be happening especially after the latest changes to the MM, and yet, still is. The problem remains the same in either case.

Just to be sure I am not just that bad at playing, I did a solo queue. Got 5 kills, 3 assists, 12 component destructions, 611 damage dealt. Nothing insane, but respectable. Match ended with a 12-7 win, instead of 0-12/1-12/2-12 losses getting shoved down mine and my friend's throats back to back constantly by teams that were obviously way more than 4 coordinated with voice chat.

Also latest cases were today during prime time so the MM rules should not have been relaxed.

You won't be put against a 12 man, they are reserved for the private queue only.

As for match losses, I get the same thing, i'll drop solo, no premades on our team, and we'll do a 12-0 stomp, or I'll drop with a friend and be on the receiving end of that stomp. It gets annoying yes but it happens.

Next time you drop, count the number of trial mechs being used, 2-4 of them will almost, in 95% of cases, end up in a match loss.

Another thing, watch how your team moves about, a good lance of players will stick together, a lance of 'Hero's' will spread straight away.

If your team is spread all over the map, your likely to lose unless the other team has done the same thing then you're on an even footing.

Observation is key, most players have the observational skills of a carrot.

[Jakob Knight]

While the performance of turrets may not be as they should (would need to see confirmation of this from an official source and/or reliable data), players choosing to base-camp to take advantage of their presence is not an exploit. That is strategy.

Players screamed for turrets in order that they be relieved of the need to defend their bases themselves, and those turrets needed to be able to reach both to the maximum range a player could strike at and be able to hurt them at that range, or players would simply snipe them to death with no risk to themselves. Well, that's what we got. If players then choose to take advantage of this, it is anything but unforseen, and the players have only themselves to blame for insisting the game do what they should have been responsible for.

Your call to ban players for this is out of line. You are basically asking the other team not to use a feature of turrets so that you can destroy those turrets without interference, and that is against the reason the turrets have the assisted targeting feature. The players are not getting around any restrictions or circumventing gameplay mechanics, only playing their strategy, one that is quite valid. Just because there is an open field to fight on doesn't mean a player is forced to use it to satisfy their opponents, and the attacking force doesn't have to march into the firing range of a static force unless they choose to do so.

If turrets are not functioning properly, then they need to be fixed, yes. However, if a team builds itself around defending their base, then it's up to the attacking force to break their defense. That's all part of warfare, and it is going to be a large part of CW, so I'd suggest you think about how to do that. If the teams are, as you say, going LRM heavy, then the logical thing is to get into their minimum ranges and take them out where they can't use them effectively. I'll even drop a hint by saying that Artillery and Air Strikes have infinite range, and are in the game precisely as a balance to static positioning. Complaining that a team of players should all be banned because they chose a valid strategy, one that came about completely because of players insisting this is what they wanted in the first place, seems extreme and suspect.

Finally, if this is still too great a problem for you, play in Skirmish. Since you obviously prefer stand-up fights to ones where you have to deal with a defensive force, that mode will give you what you want, as it was intended to do.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 17 July 2014 - 03:00 AM.

[NetherlightWolf]

Jakob Knight, on 17 July 2014 - 02:58 AM, said:

While the performance of turrets may not be as they should (would need to see confirmation of this from an official source and/or reliable data), players choosing to base-camp to take advantage of their presence is not an exploit. That is strategy.

Players screamed for turrets in order that they be relieved of the need to defend their bases themselves, and those turrets needed to be able to reach both to the maximum range a player could strike at and be able to hurt them at that range, or players would simply snipe them to death with no risk to themselves. Well, that's what we got. If players then choose to take advantage of this, it is anything but unforseen, and the players have only themselves to blame for insisting the game do what they should have been responsible for.

Your call to ban players for this is out of line. You are basically asking the other team not to use a feature of turrets so that you can destroy those turrets without interference, and that is against the reason the turrets have the assisted targeting feature. The players are not getting around any restrictions or circumventing gameplay mechanics, only playing their strategy, one that is quite valid. Just because there is an open field to fight on doesn't mean a player is forced to use it to satisfy their opponents, and the attacking force doesn't have to march into the firing range of a static force unless they choose to do so.

If turrets are not functioning properly, then they need to be fixed, yes. However, if a team builds itself around defending their base, then it's up to the attacking force to break their defense. That's all part of warfare, and it is going to be a large part of CW, so I'd suggest you think about how to do that. If the teams are, as you say, going LRM heavy, then the logical thing is to get into their minimum ranges and take them out where they can't use them effectively. I'll even drop a hint by saying that Artillery and Air Strikes have infinite range, and are in the game precisely as a balance to static positioning. Complaining that a team of players should all be banned because they chose a valid strategy, one that came about completely because of players insisting this is what they wanted in the first place, seems extreme and suspect.

Finally, if this is still too great a problem for you, play in Skirmish. Since you obviously prefer stand-up fights to ones where you have to deal with a defensive force, that mode will give you what you want, as it was intended to do.

Okay first off you completely missed the point I was making. I'm not saying that hanging in base is wrong. In some maps, say, if you spawned in the lower half of Alpine Peaks which is almost miles away from sniper hill, that's often a more ideal strategy versus getting picked off trying to get at the other base.

Again my point is, using bugged turrets to get a free lock that you would normally not get if the turrets were working properly and respecting things like ECM, radar deprivation, and LoS, is what is exploitive about it. So before you try to shoot down my idea as stupid or uncalled for, you might want to try making sure you're reading it right. As it stands, your entire post is invalid after the 2nd paragraph. Also look up the definition of exploitative activity in a game. As it is right now, there's a lot of it. PGI is at fault for allowing it to happen, or missing it in testing phases, BUT, a player can choose to not use an exploit to win. That being said, it seems this one is subtle enough that some, key word some here, just didn't realize it. Also don't assume you know my preference for what game modes I might, or might not like. That only further destroys any credibility of your post.