44 replies to this topic

[Clit Beastwood]

PanchoTortilla, on 16 July 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

I removed artemis from all my mechs with LRMs. It doesn't stack with Narc and the weight saved can go towards moar ammo, heat sinks, bigger missile racks, a Narc launcher, or short range weapons.

I tested 10 drops with artemis, 10 drops without, 10 drops with, 10 drops without

results? more damage without artemis, more kills with it. The sample size is only 40 drops, but I've since left artemis on board most of my missile centric builds and it seems to kill more efficiently.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Sephlock, on 16 July 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

Can someone tweet at them and find out if they are working on the problem?

I've mentioned it a few times. I don't know if they care.

[Sephlock]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 16 July 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

I've mentioned it a few times. I don't know if they care.

We need Bishop Steiner or cake-sender-man to do it.

[Clit Beastwood]

Seraphic Law, on 16 July 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

Which would be the overall better way to go here in terms of Clan 2x LRM-20 vs Clan 2x LRM-15 + Artemis? And would tag help much in both cases or better off spending the extra ton on ammo?

Thanks

15's seem to be the sweet spot. The 20's seem to burn ammo quicker for diminished returns.

Note: this is only when used with multiple launchers. I don't normally equip anything bigger than a 15 if I'm only carrying one launcher. I don't know how well a single lrm20 would perform.

[Angel of Annihilation]

With the Clan LRMs I don't find there is much of a benefit to having Artemis. The streaming effect of the Clan missiles just don't allow them to benefit from the tighter spread Artemis provides. Basically unlike the IS LRMs which pretty much just hit CT in one bit hit when using Artemis, the Steam effect the clans use has a tendency to spread damage no matter if you have it Artemis or not.

That being the case, when you consider Artemis is going to cost you a ton of weight per launcher, to really give you very little benefit, you would be better off just using that tonnage for more tubes or ammo.

[Lootee]

Fierostetz, on 16 July 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

I tested 10 drops with artemis, 10 drops without, 10 drops with, 10 drops without

results? more damage without artemis, more kills with it. The sample size is only 40 drops, but I've since left artemis on board most of my missile centric builds and it seems to kill more efficiently.

Did you replace it with Narc or have a teammate Narcing for you?

Narc is far superior to artemis if you can stick one on your target. It gives the same lock time decrease as artemis, broadcasts their position through walls/hills, shuts down ECM, and tightens the spread as much as artemis. It's just plain better if you're a good enough shot to hit with it and have the free tonnage.

If you have artemis installed on your mech you will not receive the Narc bonus when firing at a target that is out of LOS because the artemis bonus(or lack of) always overrides Narc. So artemis is a self nerf if you can reasonably expect Narc to be in use.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 16 July 2014 - 11:26 AM.

[Rhent]

Kilo 40, on 16 July 2014 - 05:37 AM, said:

if you're going to run LRMs, BAP is mandatory.

BAP is a poor choice for LRM's. It allows you to fire your LRM's at ECM mechs that have closed within your bubble at ridiculously reduced damage. Any ECM mech within 150M will be taking about 60% less damage. The damage scale is horrible. BAP also extends your range to get a lock, but again if you are firing LRM's at 900M targets you are wasting rounds because they will have radar deprivation and will have more than enough time to break your lock wasting your rounds.

With the preponderance of AMS on Clan mechs and the fact that clan LRM's stream fire, do you really need Artemis? I'd call it debatable. You are already firing a tight stream without Artemis and you have to have visual on the target to get a slightly tighter stream than you already have.

About the only thing necessary is TAG and thats it. You could also carry a cerppc to deal with ecm as well.

[Pjwned]

CygnusX7, on 16 July 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you but BAP decreases target acquisition by 25% meaning you can fire your missiles 25% sooner than you could without it. Add Target Decay to that and your targets are held for 3.5 seconds longer than they would be without it.

All that Target Info Gathering does is give you mech information sooner. Not target it sooner.

When I said that target info gathering is different I meant that BAP only affects that, it does not affect target acquisition time.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 16 July 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

Edit: Also BAP/CAP lowers lock on time for LRMs and SRMs but it is not specifically spelled out in the equipment. I would not run LRMs without BAP/CAP due to that and the ECM negation.

No, that's incorrect, it affects target info gathering and not lock-on time, somebody else said that earlier in the thread too.

Rhent, on 16 July 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

BAP is a poor choice for LRM's. It allows you to fire your LRM's at ECM mechs that have closed within your bubble at ridiculously reduced damage. Any ECM mech within 150M will be taking about 60% less damage. The damage scale is horrible. BAP also extends your range to get a lock, but again if you are firing LRM's at 900M targets you are wasting rounds because they will have radar deprivation and will have more than enough time to break your lock wasting your rounds.

Yep, if you want more sensor range (which isn't a bad idea) but you're running LRMs then the sensor range module is more than enough for that, you don't really want to be firing at targets 800+ meters away anyways in most cases and you don't need equipment taking up tonnage & space to have even more.

Edited by Pjwned, 16 July 2014 - 11:34 AM.

[Lyoto Machida]

CygnusX7, on 16 July 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you but BAP decreases target acquisition by 25% meaning you can fire your missiles 25% sooner than you could without it. Add Target Decay to that and your targets are held for 3.5 seconds longer than they would be without it.

All that Target Info Gathering does is give you mech information sooner. Not target it sooner.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 16 July 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

Edit: Also BAP/CAP lowers lock on time for LRMs and SRMs but it is not specifically spelled out in the equipment. I would not run LRMs without BAP/CAP due to that and the ECM negation.

BAP reduces target info acquisition time, not actual lock acquisition time (as far as I know).

http://mwo.gamepedia...le_Active_Probe

[Nicholas Carlyle]

As far as I've noticed, it decreases lock on time as well. It's kind of like Artemis effecting Streaks, I don't think it's intended.

It was VERY noticeable when Artemis was broke'd-ass on the PTS when we were testing the Clans.

[Lyoto Machida]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 16 July 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

As far as I've noticed, it decreases lock on time as well. It's kind of like Artemis effecting Streaks, I don't think it's intended.

It was VERY noticeable when Artemis was broke'd-ass on the PTS when we were testing the Clans.

It must be real subtle then because you can really tell the lock speed difference with TAG/Artemis.

[Pjwned]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 16 July 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

As far as I've noticed, it decreases lock on time as well. It's kind of like Artemis effecting Streaks, I don't think it's intended.

It was VERY noticeable when Artemis was broke'd-ass on the PTS when we were testing the Clans.

Well, that would be interesting if true then, but it's not officially documented and I've never seen anything to support it when people have mentioned it previously, usually because they were mistaken about what BAP is supposed to do.

[Clit Beastwood]

PanchoTortilla, on 16 July 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

Did you replace it with Narc or have a teammate Narcing for you?

Narc is far superior to artemis if you can stick one on your target. It gives the same lock time decrease as artemis, broadcasts their position through walls/hills, shuts down ECM, and tightens the spread as much as artemis. It's just plain better if you're a good enough shot to hit with it and have the free tonnage.

If you have artemis installed on your mech you will not receive the Narc bonus when firing at a target that is out of LOS because the artemis bonus(or lack of) always overrides Narc. So artemis is a self nerf if you can reasonably expect Narc to be in use.

For testing purposes, I ran solo in pug matches. Build is a warhawk b with 4xlrm15 and 5 erml. I don't park in the back like an LRM boat though, I chain fire missiles while running people down. Kind of "marching fire" - I try to keep them shaking so they can't return fire. The build really shines when I'm supported by TAG or NARC though.

[Johnny Reb]

Bobzilla, on 16 July 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Take LRM5's and chain fire to spam the enemy for suppression or cockpit effects. Then take the extra tons/slot and put them into other weapons. It will help your team and yourself much more.

Totally concur, my current favorite lrm boat:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6516eb28198f5b3
Machine gun lrms at its best!

[Angel of Annihilation]

Fierostetz, on 16 July 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

I tested 10 drops with artemis, 10 drops without, 10 drops with, 10 drops without

results? more damage without artemis, more kills with it. The sample size is only 40 drops, but I've since left artemis on board most of my missile centric builds and it seems to kill more efficiently.

Was this with Clan or IS mechs? The reason I ask is that with IS mechs, Artemis on LRMs is a must if you want to kill things. For Clans.....I just didn't see any real benefit.

[Clit Beastwood]

Viktor Drake, on 16 July 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

Was this with Clan or IS mechs? The reason I ask is that with IS mechs, Artemis on LRMs is a must if you want to kill things. For Clans.....I just didn't see any real benefit.

It's how you use them - if I chain fire clrm15's they kill just fine... if I group fire them they do lots of damage but don't kill.
Chain fired + artemis they eat CT's really fast.

WHK-B 4xlrm15noartemis-conservative
WHK-B 4xlrm15noartemis-aggressive http://www.twitch.tv...stetz/c/4599132
Cat A1 6lrm5noartemis

I don't have any easily accessible video of the artemis runs, but the damages tend to be maybe 15% lower (both clan and IS) and maybe 1-2 more kills. When carrying Artemis I tend to consume less ammo. I don't lurm often, I don't find it to be much fun. I prefer direct fire, its more "engaging" to me. I'm usually in a light, narcing or tagging if there's an lrm boat or two in the group... it was nice to see things from the "other side".

[Bobzilla]

Sephlock, on 16 July 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

Has anyone tried this with Clan mechs yet?

Hey Bishop, have you tried this with a Summoner yet? How did it work out?

I do it with just 2-LRM5s in kit fox.

Sharing ECM without getting in the way of friendlies, using indirect fire just to keep the enemy pinned or shaking so their aim is reduced. Surprisingly I pull 300 ish dmg with just a CLPL and those two LRM5s going willy-nilly. Didn't expect them to do any dmg.

[fleshwoundNPG]

As someone who just invested a chunk of c-bills in Clan Artemis LRM upgrades for 2 of his 3 Timber Wolves I would like to know if it is not as profound of an improvement as IS Artemis LRM upgrades.

Edited by fleshwoundNPG, 17 July 2014 - 07:08 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

fleshwoundNPG, on 17 July 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

As someone who just invested a chunk of c-bills in Clan Artemis LRM upgrades for 2 of his 3 Timber Wolves I would like to know if it is not as profound of an improvement as IS Artemis LRM upgrades.

Artemis is DEFINITELY not as good for the Clan LRM as it is for IS LRMs.

Purely due to the nature of how the Clan LRMs stream and IS LRMs clump.

I still use it though.

[Koniks]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 16 July 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

Artemis is a little iffy for Clan LRMs...

Artemis does speed up missile tracking strength. The bonus stacks with the one provided by TAG. This does improve grouping against mechs that are moving, especially fast mechs.

Pjwned, on 16 July 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

You shouldn't need to take BAP if you're using LRMs because if you're within range for it to be effective then you're either playing wrong or they're aggressively trying to take you out for having LRMs, or both even.

Active Probe is cheap insurance that an ECM light won't shut you down when they hunt you. You're also more help to your team if you're playing within 180-400m of the front line.

CygnusX7, on 16 July 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you but BAP decreases target acquisition by 25% meaning you can fire your missiles 25% sooner than you could without it. Add Target Decay to that and your targets are held for 3.5 seconds longer than they would be without it.

All that Target Info Gathering does is give you mech information sooner. Not target it sooner.

You are correct about the difference between Target Info Gathering and target acquisition. You are incorrect about which bonus BAP and the C-AP provide. They speed up Target Info Gathering and how soon you see the enemy's paper doll.

Edited by Mizeur, 17 July 2014 - 08:14 AM.