29 replies to this topic

[Sephlock]

I think most (if not all) of us can agree that pulse lasers need buffs, and that second balancing pass for IS pulse lasers is "long overdue" to say the least... but now that we have Clan pulse lasers (and lots and lots of irrational and unreasonable whiners) we'll need to keep their relative strengths in mind.

What do you think? Should we keep the theme of IS = FLD, Clan = DPS? Wouldn't that make the new IS pulse lasers decent* and the new Clan pulse lasers..... the old IS pulse lasers ?

OTOH, what else can we do to differentiate IS pulse lasers from Clan pulse lasers while keeping them distinct from their regular/er counterparts, all while maintaining balance?

As it is, I seem to recall that the pulsing of pulse lasers is just a visual effect, and what we are actually getting is a traditional DoT beam like what you'd get from a laser..

Should we re-work that mechanic? How?

Perhaps the IS could have pulse lasers that function more like autocannons, albeit with damage cut in half (or thereabouts) and RoF increased to compensate? Yes, depending on exactly how it is handled, that could be adding more pinpoint FLD to the game, but close range FLD isn't nearly as big of an issue as long range pinpoint FLD, especially in a situation where they'd coexist.

In that case... maybe the Clans could have pulse lasers that function like Clan autocannons? I mean, I vaguely recall PGI mentioning that they had some issues with (or wanted to head off any issues with) having to calculate too many impacts all at once**, so that could pose a problem... although I think those concerns have largely been dealt with given what we have seen since.

Yes, I know that we have burst fire autocannons now, but given their weight and the relatively low number of ballistic hardpoints as compared to energy hardpoints, the above may still be an issue.

I dunno, what do you think?

((EDIT))

Also, please try to keep the difficulty of programming new things into the game in mind. I am all for new and awesome mechanics, but the simpler your suggestions and the more closely they resemble things that are already in the game the more likely they are to be implemented (that is, not at all, since this isn't Twitter or Reddit ).
---

*Aside from that AWFUL firing sound that has been so bad for so long that the trauma of hearing it over and over has convinced some poor souls that it is actually good.

**IIRC this was in the context of having multiple points on a mech from which mounted weapons would fire.

Edited by Sephlock, 15 July 2014 - 09:17 PM.

[SolasTau]

But... but... I LOVE my dubstep beams! I worked really hard to make sure my Catapult C1 could carry them with its missile ears! ...I see you scowling at my Catapult with its missile ears and dubstep beams. ^.^#

Table top wise, Pulse Lasers are supposed to be same damage but more accurate. How they arrive there in MWO is by firing several high energy pulses in a burst that do the same damage as a long, held beam. The clan ones feel a little odd because they're one of the very best weapons in table top, but seem kinda' meh in MWO. And by more accurate, I mean quite a lot more accurate.

As another example, in MechCommander they did half the damage as Large Lasers, but fired a little more than twice as fast. Of course, In MechCommander, that made them unlimited ammo, shorter ranged AC2's ("Light Autocannons"). I'm not sure if there's other examples out there as to how BattleTech pulse lasers have been interpreted over the years.

[Carrioncrows]

Honestly,

I'm tired of fighting for changes.

Do you know how rare it is for them to change something due to public pressure?

I've only ever seen it twice so far. Mguns and hitboxes and those still are no where near where they need to be.

[Sephlock]

SolasTau, on 15 July 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

But... but... I LOVE my dubstep beams! I worked really hard to make sure my Catapult C1 could carry them with its missile ears! ...I see you scowling at my Catapult with its missile ears and dubstep beams. ^.^#

Table top wise, Pulse Lasers are supposed to be same damage but more accurate. How they arrive there in MWO is by firing several high energy pulses in a burst that do the same damage as a long, held beam. The clan ones feel a little odd because they're one of the very best weapons in table top, but seem kinda' meh in MWO. And by more accurate, I mean quite a lot more accurate.

As another example, in MechCommander they did half the damage as Large Lasers, but fired a little more than twice as fast. Of course, In MechCommander, that made them unlimited ammo, shorter ranged AC2's ("Light Autocannons"). I'm not sure if there's other examples out there as to how BattleTech pulse lasers have been interpreted over the years.

No techno for you.

And honestly I really liked the take MW2 took on the various weapons. Actually, make that MW2: Mercs, with mods.

Carrioncrows, on 15 July 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

Honestly,

I'm tired of fighting for changes.

Do you know how rare it is for them to change something due to public pressure?

I've only ever seen it twice so far. Mguns and hitboxes and those still are no where near where they need to be.

You've only seen it twice so far because of the timescale that PGI operates on.

Trust me, everything will be addressed... it just takes a few years after the issues are first brought up.

Edited by Sephlock, 15 July 2014 - 09:31 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Like MGs. I mean it. Give IS pulse lasers a burn duration of 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 respectively. Give them a cooldown time of 0.1, 0.3, 0.5 respectively. Cut their damage and heat approximately by 1/5th. Leave everything else as is.

Clan pluse should be duration of 0.2, 0.4, 0.6 and a cooldown of 0.2, 0.5, 1 respectively. Cut heat and damage by approximately 1/5th, leave range/damage where it is.

That actually leaves their current damage/range/heat approximately where it's at - it just makes them energy MGs, letting you trade heat for damage on a scale.

You can even have a cumulative 2% heat increase per 'tic' of 0.1 that they burn for, meaning that after 0.5/sec of burn you're generating +10% heat. This keeps them from turning into beams of destruction by stacking and burning them.

Let them be the peak of DoT at close range. You want to dance with the WubShee, you need to be dancing to that dubstep or it's going to burn clean through you. You want to get in a staring match with a pulse-loaded mech you need to understand your DPS with pinpoint vs his with time on target.

It would make the idea of paying double the weight and way less range for MPLs a serious, viable consideration for your build and not just a stupid idea that marks someone as a bad player.

We had a bunch of aggressive balance changes prior to the release of Clan mechs. That **** was awesome. Lets not lose steam. There were a few tears over the JJ rebalance but lets get that put back in place in a week and show that big changes can be swung in and out on important things, and lets get the effing pulse weapons on the board of things to shake the SUCK out of.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Tonnage drops will be the only thing that works, and that makes sense.

You're not going to double its dps, boost its damage, or boost its range up to where standard laser counterparts are without throwing off balance.

Putting tonnage down IMHO will do the trick.

small pulse 0.75 tons
medpulse 1.5 tons
Largepulse at 6 tons

All this means, is that you will have a little extra tonnage to drop in the necessary extra heatsinks to cool them properly, its not throwing off slot values, or any hard & long standing rules.

Then follow suit for clans.

Then think about where X-Pulse lasers can fit in, because those are the "MG" pulse lasers you're thinking of.

[Carrioncrows]

Sephlock, on 15 July 2014 - 09:31 PM, said:

No techno for you.

And honestly I really liked the take MW2 took on the various weapons. Actually, make that MW2: Mercs, with mods.

You've only seen it twice so far because of the timescale that PGI operates on.

Trust me, everything will be addressed... it just takes a few years after the issues are first brought up.

I've been here since the beginning, how much more time do you suggest?

MWO is on a wire for me, with the change to jumpjets, and ignoring the LRM problem the whole game is coming dangerously close to jumping the shark for me.

[Sephlock]

Carrioncrows, on 15 July 2014 - 10:30 PM, said:

I've been here since the beginning, how much more time do you suggest?

MWO is on a wire for me, with the change to jumpjets, and ignoring the LRM problem the whole game is coming dangerously close to jumping the shark for me.

For what?

I figure they'll get to flamers in another year or two.

What about the jumpjet change do you dislike the most? And what LRM problem (or dare I even ask)?

Please tell me you are referring to the whole "screwing over non-poptarts" aspect of the jump jet changes, and as for LRMs, is it too much to hope that you are referring to LRMs having ramping damage rather than full damage at all times?

[627]

Mister D, on 15 July 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Tonnage drops will be the only thing that works, and that makes sense.

You're not going to double its dps, boost its damage, or boost its range up to where standard laser counterparts are without throwing off balance.

Putting tonnage down IMHO will do the trick.

Beside this would break stock loadouts and mech construction rules, why should this be neccessary?

Make pulse laser superior to normal lasers, plain and simple.

I wrote this many times, pulse lasers need more tons, tons that would go into heatsinks with normal lasers. So there are already hotter, even with same heat stats.

If you don't want to change the complete mechanic (which would be totally legit on its own) make them way faster or harder hitting.

the MPL for example, it weighs the same as two ML, those do 10 damage to 270m. That is the ballpark where you have to end, not doing 6 damage and be .2 seconds shorter or the like with way less range.

[Khobai]

Quote

Do you know how rare it is for them to change something due to public pressure?

Not that rare? Weve been getting almost everything weve asked for. It just takes like 6 months to a year lol.

[Satan n stuff]

SolasTau, on 15 July 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

But... but... I LOVE my dubstep beams! I worked really hard to make sure my Catapult C1 could carry them with its missile ears! ...I see you scowling at my Catapult with its missile ears and dubstep beams. ^.^#

Table top wise, Pulse Lasers are supposed to be same damage but more accurate. How they arrive there in MWO is by firing several high energy pulses in a burst that do the same damage as a long, held beam. The clan ones feel a little odd because they're one of the very best weapons in table top, but seem kinda' meh in MWO. And by more accurate, I mean quite a lot more accurate.

As another example, in MechCommander they did half the damage as Large Lasers, but fired a little more than twice as fast. Of course, In MechCommander, that made them unlimited ammo, shorter ranged AC2's ("Light Autocannons"). I'm not sure if there's other examples out there as to how BattleTech pulse lasers have been interpreted over the years.

MW4 gave them lower damage and a high rate of fire, resulting in a significant increase in DPS, however they were considered inferior to regular lasers for everything except killing small vehicles. When your clan ER large lasers are frontloaded and hitscan and you can fit half a dozen on one mech DPS becomes irrelevant.

[LordKnightFandragon]

SolasTau, on 15 July 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

But... but... I LOVE my dubstep beams! I worked really hard to make sure my Catapult C1 could carry them with its missile ears! ...I see you scowling at my Catapult with its missile ears and dubstep beams. ^.^#

Table top wise, Pulse Lasers are supposed to be same damage but more accurate. How they arrive there in MWO is by firing several high energy pulses in a burst that do the same damage as a long, held beam. The clan ones feel a little odd because they're one of the very best weapons in table top, but seem kinda' meh in MWO. And by more accurate, I mean quite a lot more accurate.

As another example, in MechCommander they did half the damage as Large Lasers, but fired a little more than twice as fast. Of course, In MechCommander, that made them unlimited ammo, shorter ranged AC2's ("Light Autocannons"). I'm not sure if there's other examples out there as to how BattleTech pulse lasers have been interpreted over the years.

Lol in Mechcommander im personally not a huge fan of those Pulse lasers....ofc, its fun to put them on cuz balanced loadouts are best. They are kinda to heavy to be able to boat enough of them to make them deadly. All that aside, I usually put 2 on my Timberwolves along side the 2 ER PPC and 2 LRM lol. just got done playing through that campaign for port arthur....MC is a fun game.

[Carrioncrows]

Sephlock, on 15 July 2014 - 11:38 PM, said:

For what?

I figure they'll get to flamers in another year or two.

What about the jumpjet change do you dislike the most? And what LRM problem (or dare I even ask)?

Please tell me you are referring to the whole "screwing over non-poptarts" aspect of the jump jet changes, and as for LRMs, is it too much to hope that you are referring to LRMs having ramping damage rather than full damage at all times?

I won't go into LRM's

I consider the jumpjet change to be a bad system implemented in a bad way.

They needed to go directly the opposite way and give jumpjets 300-400% more thrust but only have a 1/3rd or 1/4th the duration. so they behave more like "Jump" jets instead of good year blimps.

Furthermore in addition to the boost extra jumpjets give you, you should only be able to fire the jets once the jets have reached a certain recharge

1-3 jumpjets - only able to fire the jets at 100% charge
4-5 jumpjets - only able to fire the jets at 50% charge or more
6-8 jumpjets - only able to fire the jets at 25% charge or more
9+ jumpjets - able to fire their jets any time they want.

This would solve the two major issues with jumpjets.
1. make jump sniping much more difficult to successfully pull off at range at those velocity speeds. Jump brawling would be easier than jump sniping obviously.
2. Make climbing up hills with anything less than 9 jumpjets neigh impossible. Which it should be.

As an added benefit this would bring jumpjets over towards a more mobility centered aspect of moving around "reasonable" terrain of the map and hoping over buildings rather than being a good year blimp with cannons.

Jump jet mechs would be land locked just like all the rest of us until they chose to use their jumpjets and because they have to wait for them to recharge based upon the number of jets it also makes jumping very valuable and not to be wasted. As using them grants great evasive bonus's but once you use them you are prevented for using them again until they are recharged to a sufficient level which could leave you land locked for 10-12 seconds.

Jump sniping and jumpbrawling are still possible though harder the above fix would 'Slow their roll' so to speak as they too have to wait for the jets to recharge to suffcient levels.

It allows people who just want to use jumpjets to get around the map easier and as such only pack 1-3 jumpjets as well as rewards those pilots who want to pack 5+ to get maximum usage as well as makes mechs that have 5-12 jumpjets that much more unique.

LRMs, I won't talk about LRMS. There are tons of posts about LRM's
SRM's the MRM's of MWO, nope. Discussed to death.

As for pulse lasers

My thoughts from a long time ago that are still valid is that I think pulse lasers should do the majority of their damage in the middle of the beam duration.

first 1/3rd duration - deal 10% total pulse laser dmg
middle 1/3rd duration - deal 80% total pulse laser dmg
last 1/3rd duration - deal 10% total pulse laser dmg.

So pulse lasers would work like they do in TT and at least simulate the +2 to hit bonus allowing you to fire the weapon, correct your aim and then deal the bulk of the damage allow you to taper off. This would dramatically support a more hit and run centered play style and clearly give them a benefit that simple raw numbers don't convey.

You are of course rewarded for keeping the beam on them for the full duration by the extra 20% but nailing the target with the middle part of the beat would allow you to put 80% of the total weapon damage into one location. Almost making them laser based FLD autocannons.

[Sephlock]

Carrioncrows, on 16 July 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

I won't go into LRM's

Because they're either fine or underpowered, with too many counters.

Good call . Say no more!

[General Taskeen]

Carrioncrows, on 15 July 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

Honestly,

I'm tired of fighting for changes.

Do you know how rare it is for them to change something due to public pressure?

I've only ever seen it twice so far. Mguns and hitboxes and those still are no where near where they need to be.

Pretty much how I feel.

It would be nice if Pulse Lasers were simply reprogrammed in some way, rather than adjusting numbers. I always wanted them to be machine gun lasers like MW3, just tweaked a bit or something, but doesn't seem they want to try testing that out.

[divinedisclaimer]

Sephlock, on 15 July 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

*Aside from that AWFUL firing sound that has been so bad for so long that the trauma of hearing it over and over has convinced some poor souls that it is actually good.

Your opinions are bad.

[Tezcatli]

They really should lower the heat on them to normal levels. With double the weight for the medium and small version. It's questionable if the somewhat shorter duration warrants the added weight that could be used for more heat sinks. At least if they had the same heat as their regular counterparts. You don't have to run a hotter build. I mean I'm already stacking heatsinks when it comes to my Blackjack X1. But if I equip pulse my heat efficiency falls to a level I don't like. I also can get more damage out of medium lasers and a large.

The way they're described in the books. They're just a straight up upgrade on the regular version. But they seem less so here. More an alternative play style.

[Carrioncrows]

General Taskeen, on 16 July 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

Pretty much how I feel.

It would be nice if Pulse Lasers were simply reprogrammed in some way, rather than adjusting numbers. I always wanted them to be machine gun lasers like MW3, just tweaked a bit or something, but doesn't seem they want to try testing that out.

see the suggestion i made in my "Larger" rant above. I think pulse lasers programmed that way is a definite short term answer.

[Sephlock]

General Taskeen, on 16 July 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

Pretty much how I feel.

It would be nice if Pulse Lasers were simply reprogrammed in some way, rather than adjusting numbers. I always wanted them to be machine gun lasers like MW3 MW2, just tweaked a bit or something, but doesn't seem they want to try testing that out.

[FupDup]

General Taskeen, on 16 July 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

Pretty much how I feel.

It would be nice if Pulse Lasers were simply reprogrammed in some way, rather than adjusting numbers. I always wanted them to be machine gun lasers like MW3, just tweaked a bit or something, but doesn't seem they want to try testing that out.

I'd classify MW3 Pulse Lasers as a sort of "Tractor Beam" rather than laser machine guns. MW4's Pulses could probably qualify, however.


One thing we could do is even have each pulse laser type have different mechanics. Maybe make IS regular pulse into "laser MGs" with higher DPS and lower HPS (at the downside of less frontloaded damage), cut down the duration on Clan regular pulse (to help them be good at longer ranges, which is their main advantage over IS pulses), and make future IS X-Pulse into the MW3-esque "tractor beams."

Clan ER pulse and IS Variable-Speed Pulse, I dunno what to do with.