15 replies to this topic

[Everad]

Idea:
Mechs incapable of using Jump Jets receive a higher threshold of Fall Speed before the new damage system kicks in.

Benefits:
Mech Pilots traveling challenging terrain without JJ features to control falls... slightly.

Punishes:
Mech Pilots who remove or do not use their JJs in Mechs made for them.

Example of Theory (Not Guarenteed to be the best values)

Mech Can Equip JJs: -30ft/sec threshold triggers fall damage.

Mech Cannot Equip JJs: -35ft/sec threshold triggers fall damage.

Did NOT check for presence of JJs on mech. Did NOT alter damage calculation.

Reason/Attempt to Give Logic:
1) Comments from fellow players that Mechs are supposed to be built for absorbing shock and impact of traveling on rough terrain (with occasional claims of Lore backing this up) by being built of appropriate material.
2) The feature of adding JJs would require modification or removal of some shock absorbing features (say need for component space or fear of heat output of JJ's melting critical materials).

[Carrion Hound]

Wouldn't shock absorption be the other way around? You'd think a mech with jumpjets would have the obligatory shock absorbers.

We're talking huge machines flying through the air here. For a jump capable mech it'd have to be in there, otherwise the pilot would have one awsome case of whiplash.

Interesting thoughts, truly.

[El Bandito]

I see OP's logic, but wouldn't that further reinforce JJ capable mechs' superiority over their mudbound brethrens? Hey look, even without JJ's I am strolling around with less fall damage penalty thanks to my built in shock absorbers.

I personally want fall damage reduction to be a quirk for the Summoner, to make it have something that is superior to the T-Wolf S.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 July 2014 - 02:43 AM.

[Everad]

To Carrion Hound's Post:
It is not the other way around. Having Jump Jets means less need (or room, or ect reason) for shock absorbance because you are now expected to manually mitigate and control your falls. The mech does less work and the pilot does more. Again, my logic is the Jump Jets make it harder to fit the extra shock absorbance. Flight control and "upright" sense is all in the gyros (I believe is the correct term).
Secondly, shock absorbers are already obligatory for the mech to reduce shake and make the job easier for the pilot. So non-JJ mechs are ideally using better systems in lack of the strength of JJs to slow falls.

[Monkey Lover]

Most non jj mechs I have I cut 50% of the armor off the legs anyway. I been just adding little more armor and not worrying about it. Of course other than lights who are now nerfed like crazy with fall dmg and underpowered jj.

[Vassago Rain]

Everad, on 17 July 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

To Carrion Hound's Post:
It is not the other way around. Having Jump Jets means less need (or room, or ect reason) for shock absorbance because you are now expected to manually mitigate and control your falls. The mech does less work and the pilot does more. Again, my logic is the Jump Jets make it harder to fit the extra shock absorbance. Flight control and "upright" sense is all in the gyros (I believe is the correct term).
Secondly, shock absorbers are already obligatory for the mech to reduce shake and make the job easier for the pilot. So non-JJ mechs are ideally using better systems in lack of the strength of JJs to slow falls.

Mechs are dropped onto planets from orbit. PGI's fall damage system is just awful.

[Kmieciu]

Vassago Rain, on 17 July 2014 - 03:25 AM, said:

Mechs are dropped onto planets from orbit. PGI's fall damage system is just awful.

Yes they are, but only using Drop Pods that are equipped with jump jets.

[Livewyr]

Everad, on 17 July 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:

Idea:
Mechs incapable of using Jump Jets receive a higher threshold of Fall Speed before the new damage system kicks in.

Benefits:
Mech Pilots traveling challenging terrain without JJ features to control falls... slightly.

Punishes:
Mech Pilots who remove or do not use their JJs in Mechs made for them.

Example of Theory (Not Guarenteed to be the best values)

Mech Can Equip JJs: -30ft/sec threshold triggers fall damage.

Mech Cannot Equip JJs: -35ft/sec threshold triggers fall damage.

Did NOT check for presence of JJs on mech. Did NOT alter damage calculation.

Reason/Attempt to Give Logic:
1) Comments from fellow players that Mechs are supposed to be built for absorbing shock and impact of traveling on rough terrain (with occasional claims of Lore backing this up) by being built of appropriate material.
2) The feature of adding JJs would require modification or removal of some shock absorbing features (say need for component space or fear of heat output of JJ's melting critical materials).

Sorry, but I must disagree with you.
A: Just because a mechcan equip jumpjets does not mean it should have to. (What if someone likes the hardpoints on the Shawk, but does not necessarily like Jumpjets? Why should they be punished.)
B: The shock absorber logic is interesting, though I think, flawed. I think we can assume that all mechs are built with generally the same shock absorbing technology. (And even if that is not the case, the increased Shock absorbance would be given to the mech that is designed to leave the ground.)

Vassago Rain, on 17 July 2014 - 03:25 AM, said:

Mechs are dropped onto planets from orbit. PGI's fall damage system is just awful.

A: I do think their fall damage system is too rigid. (Bunny hops doing damage.. really?)
However:
B: I would not use the planetary hotdrop as an example: they get super JumpJet harnesses for landing, IIRC.
C: Unless you are Steiner, doing things the smart way does not matter as much as doing them with assaults- you can just build more.

[Vassago Rain]

Kmieciu, on 17 July 2014 - 03:33 AM, said:

Yes they are, but only using Drop Pods that are equipped with jump jets.

And there are lots of those standing around in lots of places. Since we're, you know, making war, and not tiny skirmishes.

[stjobe]

Kmieciu, on 17 July 2014 - 03:33 AM, said:

Yes they are, but only using Drop Pods that are equipped with jump jets.

From that page:

Quote

Once free of the effects of the Drop Pod, the BattleMech relies on jump jets, a jump pack, and/or specialized parachutes to land safely on the ground.

They drop the last bit with just their jump jets (or a jump pack if they don't have their own jump jets).

The TT rules say that a 'mech with only a single jump jet can fall any distance without taking damage:

Quote

A unit with at least one Jumping MP may jump down any number of levels.

Total Warfare, p. 53

The drop pod is designed to shield the 'mech from atmospheric entry, not to deliver it safely the last bit to the ground. That's what jump jets (or jump packs) are for.

Edited by stjobe, 17 July 2014 - 04:03 AM.

[Livewyr]

Vassago Rain, on 17 July 2014 - 03:40 AM, said:

And there are lots of those standing around in lots of places. Since we're, you know, making war, and not tiny skirmishes.

A: At the end, you see the JJ start sputtering? (Not the best example I have seen of hot dropping a mech, but it sounded cool..)
B: If I had not seen that JJ sputter at the end, I was going to call it the Steiner Orbital Insertion.

[Kmieciu]

I'm not advocating in favor of the fall damage. All I'm saying is that a mech needs some kind of jump jets / jump packs to safely land from an orbital drop. Just like the Atlas in MWO promo.

But huge falls do not happen very often in MWO. The problem lies in those small drops while running at high speed. And light mechs suffer the most, because of the unfair damage multiplayer.

[Livewyr]

I thought the multiplier was the internal structure.. (which lights have the lowest of)

[Kmieciu]

Livewyr, on 17 July 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

I thought the multiplier was the internal structure.. (which lights have the lowest of)

I'm afraid not. For reason unknown, light got a hefty damage modifier, same as assault mechs:

• Light 'Mechs = (Internal Structure Health * 1.9) * 0.04
  
• Medium 'Mechs = (Internal Structure Health * 1.9) * 0.03
  
• Heavy 'Mechs = (Internal Structure Health * 1.9) * 0.035
  
• Assault 'Mechs = (Internal Structure Health * 1.9) * 0.04

In my opinion it should be decreased to 0.02. This will halve all fall damage for light mechs.

[Sprouticus]

Kmieciu, on 17 July 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

I'm afraid not. For reason unknown, light got a hefty damage modifier, same as assault mechs:

• Light 'Mechs = (Internal Structure Health * 1.9) * 0.04
  
• Medium 'Mechs = (Internal Structure Health * 1.9) * 0.03
  
• Heavy 'Mechs = (Internal Structure Health * 1.9) * 0.035
  
• Assault 'Mechs = (Internal Structure Health * 1.9) * 0.04

In my opinion it should be decreased to 0.02. This will halve all fall damage for light mechs.

I am all for fall damage

I do think reducing the multiplier for light mechs would be good, but I also think that tonnage is part of the equation, the multiplier is just part of it. (remember an assault mech is 3-4x as massive)

I do think non JJ mechs should get more leeway, maybe -.005 off the multiplier? (,ediums would be 0.025?)

[Everad]

1) The idea I present was to try and keep adjustment ideas simple. That's why it checks only for the ability to add JJs or Not, ignoring if they are installed. Thus I did point out fairly it will punish mech pilots not equipping their JJs if they can take them. Skillful pilots will make the choice for themselves and new pilots will be encouraged to explore JJ tactics.

2) The goal is to assist with those small jumps you might take at high speeds, or when you slip off something like the bay wall of River City or the high peaks in other maps, but you don't have JJs to slow your fall. There has been issues of learning what constitutes a small fall but still triggers as a high-speed fall.

My concern is that, if fall damage becomes too picky and easily triggered, players will stop using advantage points to the fullest extent and find that it is always safer to be funneled along all pre-made paths. JJ mechs don't have this worry. They do have to learn proper JJ control instead.

You may counter that players need only become more skilled when fighting in challenging terrain. I wish here to point at the behavior of PUG matches and how they are frequently predictable, because so many players prefer "playing it safe" out of habit. So further constraints could worsen this phenomena (bonus: maybe a surge in JJ only mechs being played).