51 replies to this topic

[Aresye]

Come here any given day and there's bound to be at least 2-3 topics actively discussing the meta, and what to do about it. Suggestions range from jump jet changes, cone of fire, DPS vs FLD, arm lock, etc. The devs continue to implement changes in some of these areas to mitigate the prevalence of poptarting, usually with little to no effect.

Why then, is poptarting such a commonly used tactic? Most would say (and agree) that it maximizes damage while minimizing exposure, but while the "min-max" crowd definitely contributes a large percentage, I think another reason doesn't get enough time in the spotlight compared to the other reasons.

That reason is map design, or more specifically, the map's hitboxes.

The K2 used to be my favorite mech, and I didn't stop running it until the poptart scene started becoming more common. Another favorite was my Orion. Both those mechs don't have jump jets, and when the poptarting started getting more popular, I realized that jump jets were becoming a necessity, and not just for maneuvering.

As a player who started off not really following the meta and largely playing non-JJ mechs, the issue I started noticing right off the bat wasn't that I couldn't place a good shot on a jump sniper, but rather that the map itself was preventing me from hitting them, despite having what looks like a clear shot. Oftentimes I would even have a solid shot on the top of their mech between their jumps, but once again, the map would block it with an invisible wall.

*Obviously HPG is hands down the worst offender when it comes to hitting invisible walls, but nearly every map has it to a certain extent.*

So then I started becoming a meta player, or at the very least, making sure nearly every one of my mechs had jump jets. Why? Well, most of the time I jump it isn't because I'm behind cover, but rather that I'm ensuring that my shots won't be blocked by some invisible wall.

Watch how the competitive guys play. You'll notice most of the time they aren't 100% concealed. They aren't jumping from the bottom of a wall in order to get a shot. That's wasting more time in the air searching for a target and lining up a shot, thus increasing exposure time. Most of the time you've already got a target in sight before you hit the jump button, and all you're doing is getting high enough to ensure your weapons don't clip.

Fixing the map geometry would go a lot further in helping to solve the jump sniping problem than all these jump jet & chassis mobility nerfs PGI seems fond of. In fact, it would probably help solve the problem better than a lot of the suggestions posted in countless threads. Why? Because now the poptarting player has to completely break LOS to ensure they don't get hit. That means they will end up spending more time trying to line up a shot, which means more time you're lining up a shot on them, they'll potentially miss more shots, yet you're ability to return fire has improved.

Obviously this won't completely eliminate jump sniping and most of the comp crowd will still utilize it because it's still an effective tactic, but it will at least help lower the overall advantage that a JJ capable mech has over a non-JJ one, and (with the more recent JJ changes included) may actually achieve a semblance of balance between the two.

If you look at MW4, poptarting was still there, but it didn't feel as advantageous of a tactic when compared to MWO (ie: It didn't feel like I "HAD" to have jump jets), despite them both having perfect PP FLD. So what's different? Well, in MW4 if you had your crosshair a pixel's worth above the ridge, your shot didn't hit the ridge. In MWO that is obviously not the case, making jump jets a necessity not just for poptarting, but to ensure your shots will hit where you aim in the first place.

[Pjwned]

I'm sure that often enough it's just me aiming poorly, but I swear that invisible map boundaries have eaten a lot of gauss shells that should've otherwise hit.

[Karamarka]

Pjwned, on 15 July 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

I'm sure that often enough it's just me aiming poorly, but I swear that invisible map boundaries have eaten a lot of gauss shells that should've otherwise hit.

That's because most of the maps have invisible walls, HPG Manifold is insane in the top center section.

[Rick Rawlings]

I'm pretty sure you would get the same amount of agreement if you had just said that map geometry was bad and blocks far too many shots without typing a wall of text trying to tie it to jump sniping!

[Ted Wayz]

An often overlooked issue contributing to the meta is....skill. Believe it or not it actually take skill. That is why competitive players are good at it (and many are not).

Nerf one meta and another takes its' place. That never changes in games. Mainly because no matter how well you balance the game you can never balance the players. Not even through matchmaking.

Btw, I have no skill but I do not harbor a grudge against people who do as long as they treat us mere mortals with respect.

[Aresye]

Rick Rawlings, on 15 July 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure you would get the same amount of agreement if you had just said that map geometry was bad and blocks far too many shots without typing a wall of text trying to tie it to jump sniping!

It's funny how you mention that. Often I've wondered why I seem to just ramble on about certain topics, although I do tend to try and describe in immense detail the full complexities of the situation. That way the viewership has no inherent capability to extract errors and flaws within the context of my post, which they do so to great effect to other lesser forum posters.

Ted Wayz, on 15 July 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

An often overlooked issue contributing to the meta is....skill. Believe it or not it actually take skill. That is why competitive players are good at it (and many are not).

Nerf one meta and another takes its' place. That never changes in games. Mainly because no matter how well you balance the game you can never balance the players. Not even through matchmaking.

Btw, I have no skill but I do not harbor a grudge against people who do as long as they treat us mere mortals with respect.

On a more serious reply

Yes, there will always be a meta, and yes, a lot of players who use the meta to great effect are indeed good players.

The way I look at it, the way the map hitboxes are designed tends to give meta players an advantage on top of the other advantages already offered by their builds and personal skill level. Fixing the map geometry isn't about nerfing the meta. It's about taking away an extra advantage that shouldn't be there in the first place.

Edited by Aresye, 15 July 2014 - 09:11 PM.

[JP Josh]

agreed although my beast of cussing out invisible walls is in river city i usally peek out so only one arm and side torse are out and my laser gets blocked.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Map designers are bad. Very bad.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Karamarka, on 15 July 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

That's because most of the maps have invisible walls, HPG Manifold is insane in the top center section.

River City is insane about it when firing from the corners of alot of those buildings that are not perfectly square.

[Ted Wayz]

to rephrase, competitive players will always find the advantage. They realize that no only do they need skill but that they have to play all the angles too.

The best, imo, and hardest way to balance this is to make the meta require multiple styles of gameplay working in unison. If a whole team utilizes the same build and tactic that is a sign of bad balancing. But if the meta requires X doing this, y doing that and z providing a form of support, etc...the longer you make the meta chain the easier it is to break it.

But no matter what you do teamwork and/or skill > all.

[Clit Beastwood]

Ted Wayz, on 16 July 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

to rephrase, competitive players will always find the advantage. They realize that no only do they need skill but that they have to play all the angles too.

The best, imo, and hardest way to balance this is to make the meta require multiple styles of gameplay working in unison. If a whole team utilizes the same build and tactic that is a sign of bad balancing. But if the meta requires X doing this, y doing that and z providing a form of support, etc...the longer you make the meta chain the easier it is to break it.

But no matter what you do teamwork and/or skill > all.

Finding and capitalizing on opportunities the layperson doesn't recognize *is* a skill.

Edited by Fierostetz, 16 July 2014 - 01:27 PM.

[Aresye]

JP Josh, on 15 July 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

agreed although my beast of cussing out invisible walls is in river city i usally peek out so only one arm and side torse are out and my laser gets blocked.

Don't forget all those good times your arm weapon gets blocked, yet the same mech you fired at gets a clean shot to your torso.

[Carrion Hound]

Map hitboxes are annoyingly bad, yes. They need to tighten all the hitbox geomety on the maps a -lot- even if it means having a pixel or two worth of clipping.The other issue with that is if you look at the projectile hitbox size.

Might want to tighten both of them up/reduce projectile/beam hitbox size a bit. As I've had clear shots before with autocannons through small openings, only to see the projectile explode as if hitting something, while my lasers go through said opening with ease.

It's not just invisible walls man, it's how frickin big the projectiles are too.

[Vassago Rain]

OP, plz.

MW4 was THE poptart game. It has a long and storied history of this.

Whole reason poptarting is so powerful is because having the high ground is an immense advantage. What ground could possibly be higher than the air itself? In a normal shooter, you get huge accuracy penalties for bunny hopping, but in mechwarrior, it's somehow thought of as a skillshot.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Vassago Rain, on 16 July 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

OP, plz.

MW4 was THE poptart game. It has a long and storied history of this.

Whole reason poptarting is so powerful is because having the high ground is an immense advantage. What ground could possibly be higher than the air itself? In a normal shooter, you get huge accuracy penalties for bunny hopping, but in mechwarrior, it's somehow thought of as a skillshot.

Yeah, cuz in MW4 you could turn off heat and ammo..and the short time I tried to go online, its all I saw...

Black Knights with PPC poptarting around....its was insanely boring....I logged into about 3 games and was like this is stupid...back to stomping 8 AI mechs with my 1 Behemoth IIC.

[Bigbacon]

just pay attention to the range indicator on the hud and you won't have invisible wall issues.

[Tezcatli]

Yeah. I was trying to shoot around a rock and invisible walls blocked my attacks. EVEN THOUGH the enemy could see me and seemingly was able to attack me. I had to back all the way back to get clear.

[Aresye]

Vassago Rain, on 16 July 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

OP, plz.

MW4 was THE poptart game. It has a long and storied history of this.

I wasn't denying that MW4 had poptarts. It had plenty of poptarts. It just didn't have as much of an advantage as in MWO because all the weapons were PP FLD, including lasers, making it considerably easier to return full damage to the poptart or hill humper.

Edited by Aresye, 18 July 2014 - 07:11 PM.

[Treblesaurus Rex]

Ted Wayz, on 15 July 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

An often overlooked issue contributing to the meta is....skill. Believe it or not it actually take skill. That is why competitive players are good at it (and many are not).

Nerf one meta and another takes its' place. That never changes in games. Mainly because no matter how well you balance the game you can never balance the players. Not even through matchmaking.

Btw, I have no skill but I do not harbor a grudge against people who do as long as they treat us mere mortals with respect.

As a person that runs a ppc raven-4x, I agree with this... but also disagree.

The maker of this thread pointed out invisible walls rather than the jump sniping itself. Jump sniping is simply a defensive measure that the user can enjoy in order to reduce incoming damage by movement in a vertical manner as opposed to reducing damage by movement in a horizontal manner.

That said, he is 100% right about the middle columns in HPG manifold. They are utterly ridiculous. there are also a number of boulder offenders in canyon, and tourmaline, despite its workover, is still nasty for this. So keep in mind what exactly he was getting at; the map makeover, not so much weapon (or equipment) balancing.

Bigbacon, on 18 July 2014 - 06:02 PM, said:

just pay attention to the range indicator on the hud and you won't have invisible wall issues.

While its true that this is in fact, correct, it isint right.

When you have clear visual contact with a target you should be able to shoot them.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Aresye, on 15 July 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

Fixing the map geometry would go a lot further in helping to solve the jump sniping problem than all these jump jet & chassis mobility nerfs PGI seems fond of.

.

Map geometry isn't broke.

Your cockpit has a higher vantage point than your arms / torso (where your weapons are mounted).

What looks like a clear shot from the perspective of your cockpit isn't always a clear shot from a lower elevation.

edit:

The way to counter it is to aim at the highest part of a mech that is visible. That'll give you the best chance of shooting over obstacles.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 18 July 2014 - 10:00 PM.