Jump to content

Please Turn On The Ppc-Gauss Link Nerf


199 replies to this topic

#121 Mystere

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 22,783 posts
  • LocationClassified

Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:18 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 18 July 2014 - 01:56 AM, said:

as has been stated about 33232424523421342131321 times on these forums, by PGI and others, delayed convergence does. not. work. with Host State Rewind. ...


Then get rid of automatic convergence entirely.

Make each head and torso weapon fire straight forcing the player to aim weapons relative to the reticule. Then make all arm weapons have a fixed convergence set manually. Heck, why not even let left and right arm weapons be aimed separately if the user so desires and has the equipment capable of doing so.

If that is too much to stomach, then make convergence manually adjustable in-match or out.


View PostKmieciu, on 18 July 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

Since PGI is unable to tweak weapon convergence and does not want to add any random cone of fire, global cool down for pinpoint weapons seems like the next best idea.


Global cool downs? What is this, Age of Conan or Rift? :P

Edited by Mystere, 18 July 2014 - 09:27 AM.


#122 Hobgoblin I

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 131 posts
  • LocationPeoria, IL

Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:25 AM

View PostMcgral18, on 18 July 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:



If we keep PP FLD with magical instantaneous convergence, you can't have them fire at the same rate as the short range weapons, which deal less effective damage.


Why not? You will fire your 2 PPC's and gauss at my stalker while it fires 6 med lasers and 4 SRM's. Then before your weapons recharge I will fire again. Personal experience has taught me that I will kill the 2 PPC/gauss mech in a brawl every time. He will kill me if I start the fire fight at say 900m. These are different weapon systems with different uses.

#123 DONTOR

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 3,806 posts
  • LocationStuck on a piece of Commando in my Ice Ferret

Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:31 AM

View PostHobgoblin I, on 18 July 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:


Why not? You will fire your 2 PPC's and gauss at my stalker while it fires 6 med lasers and 4 SRM's. Then before your weapons recharge I will fire again. Personal experience has taught me that I will kill the 2 PPC/gauss mech in a brawl every time. He will kill me if I start the fire fight at say 900m. These are different weapon systems with different uses.

TRUTH

#124 Mcgral18

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • 17,987 posts
  • LocationSnow

Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:32 AM

View PostHobgoblin I, on 18 July 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:


Why not? You will fire your 2 PPC's and gauss at my stalker while it fires 6 med lasers and 4 SRM's. Then before your weapons recharge I will fire again. Personal experience has taught me that I will kill the 2 PPC/gauss mech in a brawl every time. He will kill me if I start the fire fight at say 900m. These are different weapon systems with different uses.


Not if the PPC Gauss pilot has any sense to torso twist. Your damage will be spread across 3-4 components, or more if he has JJs.

His damage at that short range will all hit the same component. If he's patient, they will always hit your CT at short range. You can't retaliate with spread damage all over his Ct, LT, RT, arms, without taking whichever PP FLD alpha to your ST or CT, whatever he chooses to destroy first.


Spread damage is inferior, and yet they have the same cooldown, yet less than 25% of the range.

#125 Trauglodyte

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,373 posts

Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:41 AM

View PostXX Sulla XX, on 18 July 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

Not really since this is already coded and ready to turn on :P Not saying it is the best possible way but its done.


I know that it is coded but is it coded correctly? People that run PPC+GR already run a macro to pop the PPCs after 0.75s OR they're just crazy good and having the timing down to do it themselves. The point of what makes PPC+GR powerful is that you're getting all of that damage at the same time. By preventing PPCs to fire during GR charge and after GR firing would prevent all of that damage in the same spot. Hence, actually fulfilling the point.

#126 Kmieciu

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Urban Commando
  • Urban Commando
  • 3,437 posts
  • LocationPoland

Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:45 AM

View PostLivewyr, on 18 July 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

So what do you do with a weapon system that is hyper accurate at long range? The same they other shooter games do with their long-range hyper accurate weapons (Sniper and Marksman Rifles): You slow down their rate of fire relative to other weapons.


The thing is, right now the PPC has the same DPS as 2 Medium Lasers. That means you have to pay 5 additional tonnes for to upgrade your damage to "instant, pinpoint" type. A single PPC is not a problem. It's not overpowered by any means. 2 PPCs hitting the same location are quite ok. It acts like a AC20, with double the range and triple the heat. A fair trade off.
But once you can exceed 20 pinpoint damage without ghost heat it becomes really overpowered. Even clan lasers and ultra autocannons simply cannot compare to 2xPPC+Gauss or 2xPPC+2xAC5.

You get exponential gains by group firing pinpoint weapons. If a 2xERPPC+2xGauss Dire Wolf had to chain fire, it would not be scary at all, because mechs equipped with lasers would have enough time to return fire.

Edited by Kmieciu, 18 July 2014 - 09:48 AM.


#127 Livewyr

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 6,733 posts
  • LocationWisconsin, USA

Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:45 AM

View PostMcgral18, on 18 July 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:


Not if the PPC Gauss pilot has any sense to torso twist. Your damage will be spread across 3-4 components, or more if he has JJs.

His damage at that short range will all hit the same component. If he's patient, they will always hit your CT at short range. You can't retaliate with spread damage all over his Ct, LT, RT, arms, without taking whichever PP FLD alpha to your ST or CT, whatever he chooses to destroy first.


Spread damage is inferior, and yet they have the same cooldown, yet less than 25% of the range.


I treat SRM/ML Stalkers regularly that way... (Weapons on one side, give it he other while I am on recycle or cooling.)

#128 Blacksoul1987

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Vicious
  • The Vicious
  • 392 posts

Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:46 AM

View PostMcgral18, on 18 July 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:



Not if the PPC Gauss pilot has any sense to torso twist. Your damage will be spread across 3-4 components, or more if he has JJs.

His damage at that short range will all hit the same component. If he's patient, they will always hit your CT at short range. You can't retaliate with spread damage all over his Ct, LT, RT, arms, without taking whichever PP FLD alpha to your ST or CT, whatever he chooses to destroy first.


Spread damage is inferior, and yet they have the same cooldown, yet less than 25% of the range.

you twist as well son. you can most definitely beat gauss ppc in a brawl though I do agree that ppc's should have a longer cooldown

#129 Livewyr

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 6,733 posts
  • LocationWisconsin, USA

Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:47 AM

View PostBlacksoul1987, on 18 July 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

you twist as well son. you can most definitely beat gauss ppc in a brawl though I do agree that ppc's should have a longer cooldown


WIth PP FLD, twisting does not work nearly as well. (Especially on a stalker.)

#130 bluepiglet

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 359 posts

Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:50 AM

View PostBlacksoul1987, on 18 July 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

you can most definitely beat gauss ppc in a brawl.


Sure, if the opponents does not twist torso around to absorb your damage, while he utilizing his high alpha damage to tear off your limbs away one piece at a time.

You comment is like saying someone can kill an Atlas with a single small laser, because you know, the other guy might be completely blind....

#131 Reitrix

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • Survivor
  • 1,130 posts

Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:51 AM

View PostUrsh, on 17 July 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

So it won't affect IS meta-jumpsnipers.

Nothing to see here folks, working as intended.

Driving a Dire Wolf is high-risk, high-reward, particularly in the solo queue. Even with the super alpha, almost every gunner is going to struggle to hit a decent fast medium or light. I think the complaints about the direwolf alpha come mostly from the legions of heavy/assault mech players who are the intended target of the Dire Wolf.

While i agree on the idea of the DWF being 'high-risk/high-reward, I don't suffer from accuracy problems (Running mine with 5x CER-PPCs, 2x CERLL and 27 DHS) against smaller targets, as you just need patience to line up the shot.

My issue with running my DWF right now is LRMs. Its like my legs are the only thing the LRMs are targetting, and given the slow speed of the DWF, if i get seen for a split second, i lose a leg. Even with max armor.
I'm not stupid, i keep close to cover when moving, and head for the nearest rock immediately upon seeing the lock ... But if that rock isn't quite tall enough, it's byebye leg and then i cant move, at all.

All my matches in my DWF so far have ended with me getting creamed by LRMs. Mind you, should i get a target in my sight, i WILL kill it. Except that i can't spend more than a fraction of a second out of cover because LRMs.

I don't mean to derail the thread. Just saying the risk to the DWF is a weapon system that totally negates its strength.

On topic, why would we need to link the PPC and GR? Either speed up the GR shot or slow down the PPC one. Desync the shot speeds to an extent that you can't hit a lateral target directly with all of it. Won't help at all in a face to face shot, but who would be silly enough to do that? :P

Edited by Reitrix, 18 July 2014 - 09:54 AM.


#132 Blacksoul1987

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Vicious
  • The Vicious
  • 392 posts

Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:53 AM

View PostLivewyr, on 18 July 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:



WIth PP FLD, twisting does not work nearly as well. (Especially on a stalker.)

SRMS are FLD and with artemis they concentrate a rather large amount of damage to the target location if you are close enough and that spread actually helps a lot when you are both bunny hopping all over.

View Postbluepiglet, on 18 July 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:



Sure, if the opponents does not twist torso around to absorb your damage, while he utilizing his high alpha damage to tear off your limbs away one piece at a time.

You comment is like saying someone can kill an Atlas with a single small laser, because you know, the other guy might be completely blind....

lol dude really? you are gonna resort to this hyperbole BS.

#133 Livewyr

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 6,733 posts
  • LocationWisconsin, USA

Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:58 AM

View PostBlacksoul1987, on 18 July 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

SRMS are FLD and with artemis they concentrate a rather large amount of damage to the target location if you are close enough and that spread actually helps a lot when you are both bunny hopping all over.



They are FLD, but not PP, even with artemis they still spread damage across at least 2 sections- given a side profile they may hit 3 or miss. Both players given equal skill in accuracy- the PP FLD build is going to win.

#134 Adiuvo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 2,078 posts

Posted 18 July 2014 - 10:05 AM

View PostLivewyr, on 18 July 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:


They are FLD, but not PP, even with artemis they still spread damage across at least 2 sections- given a side profile they may hit 3 or miss. Both players given equal skill in accuracy- the PP FLD build is going to win.

The maximum burst DPS on a Gauss/2xPPC mech is only 8.16. Big SRM boats, such as the SRM Timberwolf, has burst DPS in the 18ish range and some mechs can go into the 20s. Comparing sustained the Gauss/2xPPC is at a bit less than 5 typically, while the SRM boat is at a little less than 9.

DPS wise a Gauss/2xPPC mech will not hold up to a brawler team. This has been shown repeatedly in comp play and works out just fine when looking at the math. Damage spread is a factor for the SRM boat, but it's not important enough to get over the DPS advantage.

#135 Reno Blade

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Blade
  • The Blade
  • 3,462 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 18 July 2014 - 10:12 AM

View PostOneEyed Jack, on 18 July 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

Don't make me slap you.


The sad part is you actually believe that.

Ghost Heat has effects, but it most certainly does not work. It did nothing to any of the weapons that were an issue. Regardless of PGIs back-pedaling denials, we all know what the goals of GH were.
  • PPCs weren't limited by GH. They were limited by having the normal heat increased.
  • AC20s simply don't care.
  • Lasers are already in a bad enough spot, and don't need the nerfs.
  • SRMs were only ever bad when the code was broken and they were doing more damage than intended, by a HUGE margin.
  • LRMs pretty much ignore GH.
  • All missiles have GH mechanics that simply make no sense at all.
  • AC2s actually got the effect in reverse of what PGI claims GH is supposed to do, FFS. They nerfed the least effective way to play them, and now they've nerfed the entire weapon into obscurity, so being held down with GH is like a punishment for being amusing.
So tell me, aside from punishing people for trying to play weapons that are already disadvantaged, exactly what does GH do that could be described as "working"?



Yes I believe the game would be worse if we had no GH.
Even if only for PPCs, the effect was badly needed to reduce the 40 dmg alphas.
you could shoot 4-5 PPCs instead of the curent 3 (with GH).
Spoiler


3x double 20s makes you shut down.
Try a Direwolf with 3 or 4 UAC20? instant shut down. Would be no problem without GH

Lasers are still in a bad space (worse than PPCs), but there are still people using a BM with 6 LL and alpha them with 99% heat (on cold maps) to good effect (killing people in 1-2 shot).
It's not that Lasers are as strong as PPCs, but alpha striking lots of them was way stronger than spacing your shots.
4+ LLaser can do a lot of damage and adding GH makes the shooter space the shots, or (if he wants to take the heat) deal with the penalties.
I use 3 LL builds (like Warhawk with 3ERLL, Gauss, 2SRM6) and I use 3 or 2 of them roughly equally often.

SRM boats like the splat cat are the only ones really affected by the GH for SRM or Streaks.
If you have more than 3 SRM6, you can deal a lot of damage.
The effect of 24 SRM with 2 damage each, even with the missile spread, can be very devestating.

Firing 4+ LRM 10/15 does a lot more heat than firing 2/2 groups.
It limits the amount of 50+ missile volleys, not the chainfired streams.

The Missile launchers over 2/5 are linked together and use the highest penalty. Nothing else to "make sense".

The AC2 was first affected (bugged) because of the short cooldown and has GH, to limit the stun-lock ability of macro'd 4-6 AC2s.
It is not very effective in dealing FLD pinpoint damage to one spot, but you could see nothing or shoot back at all, if you got into someones chaingun barrage.

All these changes lead to more time to deliver your damage, or heat penalties if you still want to group fire.
It's a basic Risk vs Reward mechanic that gives the player the choice without removing the ability to do so.
It also gives you a reason to consider taking different weapons and not boat a single weapon (type).

That GH had not "fixed" everything is partly due to GH not ruling out all cases and party because players adapt, change builds, or just learned when they could take the risk (like your example with the LRMs, or my Example with the Laser).

IMHO ghost heat is not the bad voodoo many people believe it to be and not a band aid, but a "feature" for balance.
(same as the 2 gauss charge at the same time)

#136 Eddrick

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Storm
  • Storm
  • 1,493 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationCanyon Lake, TX.

Posted 18 July 2014 - 10:13 AM

If they do this, they need to remove the charge mechanic from the Gauss Rifle. Because, it defeats the purpose of why they implemented it in the first place (Desync PPC and Gauss Rifle).

I'm getting tired of the constent nerfs. Some of the older nerfs need to be reverted.

#137 Mcgral18

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • 17,987 posts
  • LocationSnow

Posted 18 July 2014 - 10:16 AM

View Postbluepiglet, on 18 July 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:


Sure, if the opponents does not twist torso around to absorb your damage, while he utilizing his high alpha damage to tear off your limbs away one piece at a time.

You comment is like saying someone can kill an Atlas with a single small laser, because you know, the other guy might be completely blind....


Let's calculate! What range does this theoretical fight start at? HGNs have wonderful shield arms, and a dead ST to absorb lots of incoming fire. 204 damage worth, for both the LT and the LA. Plus the ~160 of the CT, plus whenever you choose to sacrifice the right side for the same ~200 damage buffer.

Stalker also has wonderful hitboxes, but no shield arms. ~100 for a ST, so in just 200 damage you can be sticked. 50% damage reduction from a destroyed ST to the CT, though. Stalkers are good at that.

MLs deal a fraction of 1 damage at 500M, while the 2 UAC5, 2 PPC HGN will still be doing max damage. It's possible to leg the stalker before you even reach the optimal 270M range, with only 108 IS+A per leg.

Of course, if the fight magically starts at 300M, the stalker has a fair chance of winning, but by no means a guarantee.

View PostBlacksoul1987, on 18 July 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

SRMS are FLD and with artemis they concentrate a rather large amount of damage to the target location if you are close enough and that spread actually helps a lot when you are both bunny hopping all over.


In an amazing testing attempt, I brought 3xSRM6+A to the Awesome in the Forest Colony Testing Grounds.

It hit all 3 torsi at 20M. A leg and arm got hit every now and then as well. At 20M, with 18 SRMs. That CoF starts very quickly, but stays nearly parallel after than initial spread.

#138 Malcolm Vordermark

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,520 posts

Posted 18 July 2014 - 10:17 AM

View PostEddrick, on 18 July 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

If they do this, they need to remove the charge mechanic from the Gauss Rifle. Because, it defeats the purpose of why they implemented it in the first place (Desync PPC and Gauss Rifle).

I'm getting tired of the constent nerfs. Some of the older nerfs need to be reverted.


That was only part of the reason. Another part was the use of Gauss as a extremely low heat and long range alternative to the AC20 when they wanted it to be a long range weapon. However, since the range nerf on all ACs I think the Gauss has become an attractive choice again.

#139 Reno Blade

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Blade
  • The Blade
  • 3,462 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 18 July 2014 - 10:18 AM

View PostEddrick, on 18 July 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

If they do this, they need to remove the charge mechanic from the Gauss Rifle. Because, it defeats the purpose of why they implemented it in the first place (Desync PPC and Gauss Rifle).

I'm getting tired of the constent nerfs. Some of the older nerfs need to be reverted.

This was only one reason.
The other reason for the charge is the minimum range and the ease of point&click with the high velocity of the bullet.
If we keep the speed of the bullet and remove the charge, the gauss turns into instant-hit weapon better than any other weapon ingame = easier to hit, more damage, no heat.
The high speed, range and damage is balanced by the fact you need to aim before you can shoot.

#140 Gas Guzzler

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 14,257 posts
  • LocationCalifornia Central Coast

Posted 18 July 2014 - 10:46 AM

High alpha builds will still be possible. This one spreads damage a bit more, but with increased DPS and very good heat efficiency.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a07f53e91c2d4a6





8 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 8 guests, 0 anonymous users