82 replies to this topic

[Egomane]

Necroconvict, on 19 July 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

As I look through the book, we have things like the Hornet, with a Std 100 engine, weighing in at 1 ton, with a 1 ton gyro, and the standard 3 ton cockpit, and 10 heat sinks. So now looking at the in game Std 100, that is also a 1 ton engine, with 4 heat sinks. Again we are left with wondering where did the additional weight from the cockpit, and the Gyro go? If they want to straight up add the weight from them into an engine, that is ok I guess, but they should then add the weight to ALL engines across the board. Not just forget about it in some, and then add it to others.. right?

In TT the 100 STD does not weigh 1 ton, it weighs 3.

Here let me make the calculation for you...
Original rules:
Engine = 3 tons
Cockpit = 3 tons
Gyro = 1 ton
10 heatsinks = free (included in the engine weight, 6 need to be mounted outside the engine)
total weight = 7 tons

In MWo it is:
Engine = 1 ton
Cockpit = free (included in the engine weight)
Gyro = free (included in the engine weight)
4 Heatsinks = free (included in the engine weight)
6 additional heatsinks = 6 tons
total weight = 7 tons

You see? You get the same total weight and the same critical distribution.

[3rdworld]

Necroconvict, on 19 July 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

As I look through the book, we have things like the Hornet, with a Std 100 engine, weighing in at 1 ton, with a 1 ton gyro, and the standard 3 ton cockpit, and 10 heat sinks. So now looking at the in game Std 100, that is also a 1 ton engine, with 4 heat sinks. Again we are left with wondering where did the additional weight from the cockpit, and the Gyro go? If they want to straight up add the weight from them into an engine, that is ok I guess, but they should then add the weight to ALL engines across the board. Not just forget about it in some, and then add it to others.. right?

It is in there. A STD 100 weighs 3 tons in TT

3 ton engine + 1 ton gyro + 3 ton cockpit = 7 tons. A STD 100 has 4 HS, so it needs 6 more. MWO doesn't give HS for free so you subtract the 6 needed tons from the engine, and you have a STD 100 that weighs 1 ton in MWO.

The net effect is exactly the same. In TT you would get the additional 6 HS for no tonnage expenditure, in MWO you have to pay the 6 tons, but the engine weighs 6 tons less.

Like I said, MWO construction rules are completely sound with any engine over around a 90 rating. At 90, the engine would need to weigh 0 tons, under 90 and the engine would need to have a negative weight. Which is why we only have access to engines 100 or above in MWO.

[Khobai]

TT also doesnt have engine caps so you could put a 250 engine in a Commando if you wanted to and bypass the problem. You could also remove the hand actuators which are pointless on a Commando anyway.

So MWO has added construction rules that create problems for certain mechs.

[Necroconvict]

3rdworld, on 19 July 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

It is in there. A STD 100 weighs 3 tons in TT

3 ton engine + 1 ton gyro + 3 ton cockpit = 7 tons. A STD 100 has 4 HS, so it needs 6 more. MWO doesn't give HS for free so you subtract the 6 needed tons from the engine, and you have a STD 100 that weighs 1 ton in MWO.

The net effect is exactly the same. In TT you would get the additional 6 HS for no tonnage expenditure, in MWO you have to pay the 6 tons, but the engine weighs 6 tons less.

Like I said, MWO construction rules are completely sound with any engine over around a 90 rating. At 90, the engine would need to weigh 0 tons, under 90 and the engine would need to have a negative weight. Which is why we only have access to engines 100 or above in MWO.

Why do you hate the Urban Mech? It needs that 60 tonner

[Egomane]

Khobai, on 19 July 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

TT also doesnt have engine caps so you could put a 250 engine in a Commando if you wanted to and bypass the problem. You could also remove the hand actuators which are pointless on a Commando anyway.

So MWO has added construction rules that create problems for certain mechs.

Yes you could do that in the Tabletop. But if you add the roleplay and the lore to it, you would need a full fledged mech factory and a lot of money for engineers to do both of those modifications.

That we are allowed to modify our inner sphere mechs at all, is a concession of PGI towards the players.

Edited by Egomane, 19 July 2014 - 09:10 AM.

[Sorbic]

Tesunie, on 19 July 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

I believe that the fusion reactors are all the same sizes, but the "engine" that converts that fusion reaction into energy your mech can use is what is changing in size. Thus, from my understanding, you still need 10 heat sinks to cool the fusion reactor of your mech properly, while engine size wouldn't relate to that heat creation...

But I'm no lore buff and will be the first to admit it....

And I have no idea how they are supposed to work. All I know is that generally more power/energy equals more heat.

[Khobai]

Quote

Yes you could do that in the Tabletop. But if you add the roleplay and the lore to it, you would need a full fledged mech factory and a lot of money for engineers to do both of those modifications.

Of course. But the extent of customization we already have in MWO makes it obvious we have those personnel and facilities available to us. So the argument that we dont have mech factory at our disposable doesnt hold up.

The point is while MWO may follow TT construction rules in some ways, it doesnt in other ways, and certain mechs pay the price for it.

[Necroconvict]

There also are not many varients for Gyro sizes. It seems to be 1, 2, and 3 ton Gyros.

[FupDup]

Honestly, the rule that sub-250 engines need to place some sinks externally is pretty stupid and arbitrary. It serves literally no purpose whatsoever other than to penalize players for choosing 20, 25, or sometimes 30 ton mechs. 35 ton lights and above almost never suffer from this, excluding ones with a low engine cap like the BJ (which generally has to use 3 slots on an external dub).

It basically creates a situation where the most optimal mechs are the ones that try to cram in the biggest engine possible, at least for the lower tonnage intervals. Being able to use FF at the same time as Endo doesn't free up a whole lot of weight, but on a light mech every little bit helps. Especially if you're only 20-25 tons.

As an example, the classic ECM Trollmando 2D would be able to use 3 SSRM2 with 3 tons of ammo and a Medium Laser simultaneously, without downgrading to a Small Laser or using SHS (ew!). It's not a massive boost, but it would help. BJs and Lolcusts would benefit as well. Maybe even a few rare Spider builds.


I don't often agree with Khobai, but in this case it's a good idea to change this silly rule. The first 10 sinks you need should be carried inside of the engine, without requiring a critical slot tax. The tonnage would be the same in the end, you'd just save some critslots.

Edited by FupDup, 19 July 2014 - 09:19 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Actually the fix for DHS is to make the Engine DHS the 1.4's and the external DHS the 2.0's. This would force PGI to create a realistic Battletech heat scale since all the 4-5x Medium Laser builds would be shutting down and all the AWS-8Q's would be roaring like Lions.

[Necroconvict]

FupDup, on 19 July 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

Honestly, the rule that sub-250 engines need to place some sinks externally is pretty stupid and arbitrary. It serves literally no purpose whatsoever other than to penalize players for choosing 20, 25, or sometimes 30 ton mechs. 35 ton lights and above almost never suffer from this, excluding ones with a low engine cap like the BJ (which generally has to use 3 slots on an external dub).

It basically creates a situation where the most optimal mechs are the ones that try to cram in the biggest engine possible, at least for the lower tonnage intervals. Being able to use FF at the same time as Endo doesn't free up a whole lot of weight, but on a light mech every little bit helps. Especially if you're only 20-25 tons.

As an example, the classic ECM Trollmando 2D would be able to use 3 SSRM2 with 3 tons of ammo and a Medium Laser simultaneously, without downgrading to a Small Laser or using SHS (ew!). It's not a massive boost, but it would help. BJs and Lolcusts would benefit as well. Maybe even a few rare Spider builds.


I don't often agree with Khobai, but in this case it's a good idea to change this silly rule. The first 10 sinks you need should be carried inside of the engine, without requiring a critical slot tax. The tonnage would be the same in the end, you'd just save some critslots.

I am looking in the books, and things like the commando, has 2 in each side torso.

[FupDup]

Necroconvict, on 19 July 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

I am looking in the books, and things like the commando, has 2 in each side torso.

...And? It's a pointless rule that penalizes players for having the audacity to choose a non-meta mech. Being in the books doesn't suddenly make it good.

[Necroconvict]

Well sadly, the weight thing actually sadly seems accurate when Ego, and the other guy put it up like that.

[FupDup]

Necroconvict, on 19 July 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

Well sadly, the weight thing actually sadly seems accurate when Ego, and the other guy put it up like that.

I'm not talking about weight, though. I'm talking about critical slots.

[Necroconvict]

FupDup, on 19 July 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

...And? It's a pointless rule that penalizes players for having the audacity to choose a non-meta mech. Being in the books doesn't suddenly make it good.

By that I mean, the heat sinks are where they are expected to be Fupdup, I still want to double check heavy, or an assault, but it seems sound after all.

FupDup, on 19 July 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

I'm not talking about weight, though. I'm talking about critical slots.

FF really doesn't give that much weight, so if you are running out of slots, you might skip it. What does it give you really a ton?

[FupDup]

Necroconvict, on 19 July 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

By that I mean, the heat sinks are where they are expected to be Fupdup, I still want to double check heavy, or an assault, but it seems sound after all.

And what I mean is that the "expectation" from Tabletop/books/stuff is a flawed one. It's a tradition, but not a good tradition. The critslot "tax" for taking a small engine is simply not necessary for the game, and in some cases reduces the options you have. Right now it's basically about trying to cram in a fairly big engine, or on lights you generally want the biggest engine.

Necroconvict, on 19 July 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

FF really doesn't give that much weight, so if you are running out of slots, you might skip it. What does it give you really a ton?

The best example of a mech that would benefit is the classic Trollmando 2D. Right now, if you want to have 3 tons of Streak ammo, you need to either:
A. Downgrade your Medium Laser to a Small Laser, skip FF
B. Downgrade to SHS, add FF

If the 10 base sinks were all located inside of the engine, the Trollmando could keep both the Medium Laser and his DHS at the same time, while using both FF and Endo. It's not massive, but it's a nice little nudge. It could also open up a few new loadout options on various Lolcust and BlackJack builds.

Edited by FupDup, 19 July 2014 - 10:23 AM.

[Necroconvict]

On the Volverine, you get 2.5 tons off for using Endo, you only get 1 ton for FF, so seriously for all those crit slots you lose, it is very minor on a commando, or other small mechs. I know you can't build the little meta you want to build, but seriously it is 1 ton. It is 1 ton for 14 critical slots, I know you really want it, but it is accurate by the books, far closer than again I like to bring up the firing speed of AC weapons. Those with the exception of Ultra weapons, are all supposed to fire at the exact same speed.

Edited by Necroconvict, 19 July 2014 - 10:50 AM.

[FupDup]

Necroconvict, on 19 July 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

On the Volverine, you get 2.5 tons off for using Endo, you only get 1 ton for FF, so seriously for all those crit slots you lose, it is very minor on a commando, or other small mechs. I know you can't build the little meta you want to build, but seriously it is 1 ton.

3 SSRM2 + ML Commando is meta? What? I don't even...

The current meta lights are the Raven 3L, ML/SSRM Jenners, and Embers. Maybe ECM Spider might count. That's about it.


The Wolverine is a bad example to use because it can and should use engines rated over 250. For all 55 tonners, the "ideal" engine range is 280-300. Lower makes you a gimped heavy, and higher makes you a fat light.

On a really small mech like the Commando or Lolcust, however, that 1 ton can do more than you'd think. They need every boost they can get against their Raven 3L/Firestarter/Jenner overlords.

[Fleeb the Mad]

The '10 base heat sinks' arbitrary rule people are complaining about isn't some bullshit mechanic to cripple light mechs. It's an artificial bullshit mechanic that buffs them. If you went by what was consistent and makes sense (more heat sinks as engines get bigger), mechs would get a heat sink for every 25 engine rating. Great if you have a big engine (i.e. a 50 ton mech or larger), but a consistent and logical approach would kill any mech under 40 tons. They'd actually have to pay weight for all those extra heat sinks, or try to run on 5 or 6 instead of 10.

So kindly stop complaining that light mechs should get some sort of added buff so they can run Endo and FF because a bunch of free heat sinks force them to sacrifice some space that most of them have in abundance. The reason a Jenner can use both Endo and FF is also a reason it needs to. Engines get less tonnage efficient as they get bigger. You will find if the engine's big enough, a mech like a Jenner has no more payload than a Commando while going the same speed.

The reason for all the other engine screwyness is because MWO has a system where you can take parts out and store them in an inventory, rather than just having sliders for # heat sinks and engine rating.

MWO's external heat sinks work the way they do because it's needlessly convoluted to code 'weightless' heat sinks and regular ones, when in inventory they all will weigh one ton, and expect people not familiar with the franchise to understand. Making it work out to match the TT values is actually the wrong approach here.

It also makes perfect sense to roll the gyro weight into the engine, because it's based on the engine size. New players would, again, be infuriated by a needlessly convoluted step in the mech customization scheme where they'd have to figure out what the gyro weight would be if they put in a different sized engine. I'm guessing those that make an argument against it haven't designed a TT custom mech with anything but software that calculates all that when you change the engine rating. Again, making that match TT's construction rules would not be the right choice if you want the engine to be its own object that can be removed from the mech and swapped around. Making people do iterative math to see if stuff fits is not a good idea.

I'd imagine the cockpit weights were thrown in with the engine so that you couldn't hit zero weight with the above two changes until you got to a sub-100 rating engine. If the cockpit was its own item engines would hit zero or negative weight at 120 for standard and 145 for XL. Call that a compromise of the above two changes. TT folks will notice it, but ultimately it means that fewer configs get broken. I'm OK with that, even if it means my beloved Urbsie will never be in MWO in its original TT configs.

[Egomane]

What irritates me, is that the commando build FupDup is talking about, can be done. It just wont include the ECM and it needs to shave off half a ton of armor for the full 3 tons of ammo, but it would habe Endo, Ferro and DHS. Now that we have half tons, 2.5 tons of ammo would be a possibility.

If the build should include an ECM it needs to make tonnage free first, but as Endo, Ferro and DHS are already in there, the only other way is to get rid of armor protection or of other equipment. If you get rid of the equipment, you'll almost automatically free up the necessary slots for the ECM. If you reduce the armor, you need critical slots. Reducing the build to SHS would not cripple it much (more), but open up the space needed.

Of course you could also reduce the reactor, but for the small mechs speed is life. In the irrational case where someone wants to do that, you'd run into the critical slot problem FupDup is talking about.

I do not know what FupDup intends to do with a mech that is either not using its strongest equipment (ECM) or freely losing more then a third of its total protection.

Necroconvict, on 19 July 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

FF really doesn't give that much weight, so if you are running out of slots, you might skip it. What does it give you really a ton?

On a commando at full armor it's 0.6 tons.

Edited by Egomane, 19 July 2014 - 12:33 PM.