43 replies to this topic

[CocoaJin]

Death from Above should not be a "special move" where you hit some button or combination in order to send your mech on some pre-baked trajectory toward an opponents cockpit. No jump and press a button so every JJ equipped mech can spam repeatedly. This should not be Street Fighter with robots, no Hadu-ken with mechs.

DFA should be a natural and organic consequence of the games damage and physics/movement mechanics. Essentially, DFA should just be the natural result of a mech's collision into another's cockpit or center torso that happens to be sufficient to deplete any remaining armor and internal structure present on the opposing mech. Not because you push a button get a +30 attack on impact. It should be simple...damage should be delivered in real time, on impact based on mech mass, velocity and should have the potential for damage to the DFAer, just as if you'd hit the ground at the same speed, perhaps more considering you are landing on an uneven surface difficult for your legs to compensate for.

I'd rather not see it spammed and overly used until it's a combat cliche because some MechWarrior got lucky and pulled it off as part of some story telling gimmick.

Edited by CocoaJin, 21 August 2014 - 05:41 PM.

[Edward Mattlov]

sneeking, on 20 July 2014 - 02:14 AM, said:

wang with mace in left hand will rock your world....

that is all

The wang has claws and an Atlas would knock it senseless.

Edited by Edward Mattlov, 25 July 2014 - 10:25 PM.

[k0sh]

Yeah add swords and **** and turn it in to some crap manga/anime cartoonish game for 5 year old children.

[CocoaJin]

k0sh, on 25 July 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

Yeah add swords and **** and turn it in to some crap manga/anime cartoonish game for 5 year old children.

I'm not convinced it would have to become that. As long as melee is made a secondary, improvised means of combat for most. So no over powered melee attacks, no high rate melee attacks to spam, no clipping through mechs to allow for face-hugger melee tactics.

Melee specific chassis may have weapons that deliver great than average damage compared to an improvised melee attack such as punch. But melee needs to be done in a refined model. Just making contact with the melee weapon or the arm or the leg should not register damage. Contact must be made with the cutting edge, the bludgeon end, the face of the fist, the ball or bottom of the foot and it must all be done during the striking motion of the attack. So no flailing attacks to spam where you "spray and pray" any contact on your opponent in order to cause damage.

The speed and rate of melee attacks should consistent with your mech's normal movement speeds/rates.

[Tivale]

Would like to see the no-dachi

[kosmos1214]

k0sh, on 25 July 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

Yeah add swords and **** and turn it in to some crap manga/anime cartoonish game for 5 year old children.

some one has no idea how battle tech works

[Jaeger Gonzo]

k0sh, on 25 July 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

Yeah add swords and **** and turn it in to some crap manga/anime cartoonish game for 5 year old children.

Uhm yeah, go to your manga as we want BATTLETECH here, and melee is a huge part of this ip.

[The Blood God]

sounds good so long as its only mechs with proper arms get it after all whats the point in hands if they don't even hold weapons

although a jager with chain mounted maces on its shoulders wind milling in would be hilarious

[Voivode]

Will my Commando be able to outfit a big ass bowie knife?

[Kalimaster]

I believe that the old Battletech manuals would be the determining factor of what a Mech can, or could not do.

[HighTest]

Implemented properly, hand-to-hand combat would be a nice addition to round out the game and keep the game more consistent with canon and lore. At minimum, I'd link to see collisions, knock-downd, punching and DFAs. Kicking is OK, but in my mind not a priority.

The trick is making it so that it can be used at the right time. Imagine the following scenario - I'm in a Battlemaster, With a punch, I do 8.5 damage (assuming we stick with the chart posted earlier, which looks to be pretty good for balance). I can walk up behind a target, and to damage it, I need to make a choice:

1: Punch - does 8.5 damage. So I'm sacrificing all of my other weapons (which might have a 30-50 damage alpha) to do 8.5.
2: Fire - does X damage (say 30-50). Sounds like a better deal to me. And this is what we can do now anyway.
3: Punch + Fire - does 8.5+X damage. But, presumably, you can't turn the body to punch AND fire at the same time, so you need to pick which to do first. If the opponent doesn't notice -- you get a little damage bonus from the punch too.

Realistically, no one is going to punch or hatchet someone first when you already have weapons and ammo present.

Now, let's say that the match has been going on for a while. You're down a full torso and most of your weapons. And you're out of ammo. It's a close match, and both sides are hurting. Now, when you're out of weaponry, all you can do is to try to run around and buy your team some time, or cap a base (if it's the right game mode). With melee, you can at least try to contribute. Sure -- it would be a little like the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail -- but it's better than running around aimlessly. I can envision some pretty epic match endings this way.

TL:DR
I'd like to see it put in game.

[CocoaJin]

Valid points, who would choose melee over weapons? How often does a mech end up with no weapons, but still have arms to punch or use a melee weapon? Unless your mech came already equipped with melee weapons permanently and pre-attached, why waste the tonnage?

It seems, DFA and kicks would be the most viable improvised melee due to legs frequently being left intact when all weapons are gone. So if we had sink time resources into melee, I'd agree it just be DFA and kicks first, everything would be time and resource dependent...no rush.

[stjobe]

Myke Pantera, on 24 July 2014 - 03:17 AM, said:

A definite "No" to kicks and boxing and round-house kicks and any other martial art stuff. This is Mech Warrior, not Street Fighter.

Ahem.

THIS is BattleTech (Technical Readout 3025, p. 10):

Technical Readout 3025, p. 10 said:

A major design flaw of the 'Mech was discovered during the Reunification War (2575-2597). During the Battle of Imbros III in March 2580, the tactic of jump-kicking gained popularity. With this maneuver, jump-capable light and medium 'Mechs could jump and smash their leg components into the head and upper torso of opposing units, hoping to cause more damage than they inflicted upon themselves.

This tactic was very popular among Wasp warriors, as it improved their offensive potential somewhat. Practitioners of the tactic soon learned that most Wasps were only able to use the jump-kick once, even if the leg damage was repaired before another close combat. After performing the first or second jump-kick, the lower leg assemblies on the Wasp would actually rip away from the body at the instant of impact, leaving the 'Mech totally immobile in the field.

The problem was finally traced to the stress bars along the actuator paths in the lower leg components. The designer had never dreamed that a tactic such as jump-kicking would be developed for lighter 'Mechs, and so had not given them the monomolecular stress-resistant material used on newer and heavier'Mech types. By 2160, nearly all Wasps and other light 'Mechs were rebuilt with MMSR actuator bars, alleviating the amputation problem.

THIS is also BattleTech (the Hatchetman):


(Yes, it has a dropship for a head; it's a Full-Head Ejection System. Er, I mean LOOK AT THAT HATCHET. The clue is in the name!)

You know that left hand on the Awesome? It's a BATTLEFIST, made for punching things.

...

BattleTech has
* Punching (with or without clubs/hatchets/swords)
* Kicking
* Charging
* Death From Above

Punching did tonnage / 10 damage, kicking tonnage / 5.
Punching with a hatchet or club did as much damage as a kick (20 damage from a 100-ton 'mech).
Charging was deadly, more so to the defender but also to the attacker.
DFA was a very, VERY risky move; even more so than a regular charge.

Edited by stjobe, 20 August 2014 - 01:09 PM.

[TLBFestus]

A big fat NO from me.

The thought of a bunch of idiots running into you and griefing in the game is too much. It would likely be the last game I played.

[Myke Pantera]

stjobe, on 20 August 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

Ahem.

*Great wisdom in claiming the Hatchetman is named Hatchetman because of the Hatchet, man!*

Ahem.

So from my original post:

Myke Pantera, on 24 July 2014 - 03:17 AM, said:

A definite "No" to kicks and boxing and round-house kicks and any other martial art stuff. This is Mech Warrior, not Street Fighter.

A definite "Yes" to Hatchets/Swords/Axes for those mechs that are supposed to carry such weapons like
* Hatchetman
* Axman
* Black Knight

Unfortunately they don't seem to have enough variants post 3050 to be eligible in the near future for MW:O

you decided that only the first sentence strikes you as relevant, and that you'd rather explain me that the hatchet in the hatchetman's hand is used for ... hatching? No wait... it's a melee weapon. I would never have guessed. Thanks bro for clearing that up for me! You would be a great journalist. Only quoting what suits you best. Yes i get the irony in doing it myself with this post.

I'll stick to my oppinion. Yes to Hatchets/Swords/etc for mechs who carry one. No to Chuck Mech Norris Warrior.

Edited by Myke Pantera, 20 August 2014 - 03:25 PM.

[stjobe]

Myke Pantera, on 20 August 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

you decided that only the first sentence strikes you as relevant, and that you'd rather explain me that the hatchet in the hatchetman's hand is used for ... hatching? No wait... it's a melee weapon. I would never have guessed. Thanks bro for clearing that up for me! You would be a great journalist. Only quoting what suits you best. Yes i get the irony in doing it myself with this post.

I'll stick to my oppinion. Yes to Hatchets/Swords/etc for mechs who carry one. No to Chuck Mech Norris Warrior.

My post originally only had the TRO:3025 quote about the Wasp, the tactic of jump-kicking, and the accidental amputations it entailed before the leg assembly was strengthened.

Then, because physical attacks are an integral part of BT, I added the other bits. "Kicks and boxing" (as you put it) are available to all 'mechs, as is charging. DFA you need jump jets for, but the point of the post was to show that physical attacks have been a part of BattleTech since its inception; this includes stuff like jump-kicking (as the TRO:3025 quote plainly shows), punching with melee weapons (illustrated by the Hatchetman), or without (illustrated by the Awesome's battlefist).

Arguing that our 'mechs shouldn't be able to punch, kick, charge, and do DFA attacks is akin to arguing PPCs have no place in BattleTech. Both are iconic of the franchise and part of the core rules.

[Beaching Betty]

Then it would be called gundam! Muahaha

[Koniving]

Praetor Knight, on 19 July 2014 - 11:19 PM, said:

DFA won't work in this game. The reasoning is we don't have the 30 meters forward and 3 to 6 meter thrust per jumpjet necessary to make it work. Though we do have 3.2x gravity to make falls super fast. Even on maps that are supposed to be sub-1x gravity. Highlanders can't even get off the ground.

This was before the recent jumpjet nerfs...it's EVEN WORSE now.

Charges work pretty well. We also need the fall damage associated with it.


Someone had a video showing that you can now push mechs instead of just phase through them and it does do damage.
I've seen it myself (In fact I got pissed at someone because they pushed the mech out of my killing blow and the mech stayed alive!)

I'm afraid of how PGI would implement punches and kicks, though.

Edited by Koniving, 21 August 2014 - 06:44 AM.

[HlynkaCG]

Edward Mattlov, on 19 July 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

I voted yes to melee, but not to "some" mechs...

CocoaJin, on 24 July 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

It would seem all mechs should have some improved melee, but there should be a risk for damage unless the mech's structure was specifically designed for the purpose, or is designed with the intention for and is equipped with an appropriate melee weapon.

This was the purpose of having Hand Actuators in TT.

[Koniving]

zeyqer, on 21 August 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

Then it would be called gundam! Muahaha

More like Patlabor.

Skip to 1 minute. Wait for the fight.

Slightly less drunken fight. But this would be a mech with MWO's ECM. (The black one).


2:00 minutes in. It's in Italian though... all I can think of is mob-bosses in 6 ton mechs.


The revolver is 38mm, within the AC/2 range. Of course the armor on these mechs is lighter.
It's like watching Industrial Mechs from Battletech, just imagine some diesel engines in the mix and the Cattlemaster.


Sadly the actual brawling is not present here, this is the best scene I can get you on youtube. It's also why battlemechs converted entirely to autocannons from Rifles. Imagine the Ingram's (the mech/labor's) shotgun as a single shot autocannon aka "Rifle." Now picture what the enemies are using as autocannons.

Ota's comment is pretty true, "For every shot I can get off they can shoot me a hundred times!"

Edited by Koniving, 21 August 2014 - 07:51 AM.