23 replies to this topic

[Grayblue]

I was never really bothered much about pop-tarting. I actually liked it when my opponents did it, and when they realized bunny hopping don't save them from their face getting burned off, it soon stops.

Anyway, although I don't care, since all these so called "solutions" to pop-tarting is hurting my non-pop-tart mechs, I will tell you what the solution is.

No, it's not jump jets. No, it's not pin point damage. Pop-tarters were laughing at you all along for messing with the wrong source of the problem.

What makes pop-tart viable is that they can just take a snap shot and expect a 10~20+ damage hit.

THAT is the source of the problem.

Solution?

Simple! REDUCE PPC and Gauss projectile speed by at 25~30%.

Edited by Grayblue, 19 July 2014 - 10:32 AM.

[Scratx]

Grayblue, on 19 July 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

I was never really bothered much about pop-tarting. I actually liked it when my opponents did it, and when they realized bunny hopping don't save them from their face getting burned off, it soon stops.

Anyway, although I don't care, since all these so called "solutions" to pop-tarting is hurting my non-pop-tart mechs, I will tell you what the solution is.

No, it's not jump jets. No, it's not pin point damage. Pop-tarters were laughing at you all along for messing with the wrong source of the problem.

What makes pop-tart viable is that they can just take a snap shot and expect a 10~20+ damage hit.

THAT is the source of the problem.

Solution?

Simple! REDUCE PPC and Gauss projectile speed by at 25~30%.

How does that solve the problem? They'll just learn to compensate for slower projectiles. Slowing both down the same amount won't desynchronize them.

[Grayblue]

Think about it.

PPC and Gauss are not the only pin point weapons.

But, you do not see much pop tarting with AC10 or AC20 mechs even when they are perfectly capable of jumping as other pop tart mechs.

Why do you think that is?

It is because people normally cannot put the reticle roughly on an enemy doing a split second snap shot and expect a hit from 1000m away with them.

Edited by Grayblue, 19 July 2014 - 11:23 AM.

[CocoaJin]

How about adding cross-hair shake while JJing? I've always advocated a certain level of inaccuracy induced to the cross hairs during accelerations. A small wobble can mean little up close, but becoming a major factor to compensate for when engaging targets down range.

Yeah, I know, people will bring up modern tank guns that fire with pin-point accuracy on the go...but those guns are mounted along the central axis of the tank,Minot tangling out on arms(weapon placement on the mechs should effect the magnitude of cross hair wobble for the weapon), but most importantly, modern tanks don't fire when you pull the trigger, the weapon systems waits for the opportune time to fire based on accelerations and adjustments needed to delivery a clean shot on target.

Assuming we don't have computer controlled firing system like a modern tank(honestly, who wants to have a computer do their shooting in a game like this), and this not to say there isn't a precedent in the lore for a module that does this, but it would seem reasonable that the player would have to determine the proper fire instances that would allow the proper fire solution/lead shot to land on target...or endure the reduction in accuracy if they fail to do so.

[xe N on]

What is the reason for poptarting? Simple. It minimizes the exposure time to enemy's fire during the own attack.

What is the solution? Simple. Increasing the expose time to enemy's fire during jump.

How is that done? Simple. By drastically increasing the jump thrust und jump height while removing the ability to stop the jump process by releasing the spacebar.

Edited by xe N on, 19 July 2014 - 11:11 AM.

[Spheroid]

How about insane exponential ghostheat for PPCs fired in air? Easier than destroying the utility of jump jets.

[Tor6]

Just make jumpjets actually useful for traversing terrain and maneuvering rapidly. Make them move a mech quickly, violently, and reasonably far just as they're supposed to be able to do in TT. Make it so they generate a lot of heat and heat does not dissipate while in the air. Suddenly they're very useful as a maneuvering tool and for getting into an out of combat, but not useful for shooting while airborne. ...As they're supposed to be.

[mike29tw]

xe N on, on 19 July 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

What is the reason for poptarting? Simple. It minimizes the exposure time to enemy's fire during the own attack.

What is the solution? Simple. Increasing the expose time to enemy's fire during jump.

How is that done? Simple. By drastically increasing the jump thrust und jump height while removing the ability to stop the jump process by releasing the spacebar.

Most hilarious solution ever.

You're forced to rocket up sky high everytime you push your space bar, and then fall like an asteroid from space.

Do it PGI, implement this.

[CocoaJin]

xe N on, on 19 July 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

What is the reason for poptarting? Simple. It minimizes the exposure time to enemy's fire during the own attack.

What is the solution? Simple. Increasing the expose time to enemy's fire during jump.

How is that done? Simple. By drastically increasing the jump thrust und jump height while removing the ability to stop the jump process by releasing the spacebar.

But that removes pop-tarting as viable tactic...I don't think pop-tarting is the problem. It's just a sci-fi version of hull-down tank tactics. The key is making it less easy button because the game physics is too vanilla and simplified. Requiring skill to deliver shots on target at range will pay dividends through out the game, not just on pop-tarts.

Beef up the physics a bit, impart mech velocity/accelerations on ballistic and PPC rounds as they are fired, add gravity effects to ballistic rounds...so different maps/planets effect them differently.

The secret to ranged direct fire or presumably skill based weapon systems is to require its usage to encompass on the fly adjustments to multiple variables, especially variables that are induced by the user, like firing on the move. There is a reason sniping tends to be done stationary...not only stationary, but in a position that makes movement non-viable. A game that allows for pin-point sniping/marksmanship while on the move or with rapid shoot and scoot behavior has failed the tactic and it's inherit, natural balances...especially in an anthropomorphic mech game that embraces weapon inaccuracy and misses.

[101011]

Grayblue, on 19 July 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

Think about it.

PPC and Gauss are not the only pin point weapons.

But, you do not see much pop tarting with AC10 or AC20 mechs even when they are perfectly capable of jumping as other pop tart mechs.

Why do you think that is?

It is because people normally cannot put the reticle roughly on an enemy doing a split second snap shot and expect a hit from 1000m away with them.

You can not expect to put your reticle on a mobile enemy 1000 meters away and expect to hit. If you can, they deserved it.

[xe N on]

mike29tw, on 19 July 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

You're forced to rocket up sky high everytime you push your space bar, and then fall like an asteroid from space.

Do it PGI, implement this.

Of course you would featherfall back down to ground ... However, maybe there should be an function allowing to ovverride the featherfall. Going down in flames like a comet would be like a advanced artillery strike

[DarthPeanut]

There is a poptart problem? Who knew.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 19 July 2014 - 11:38 AM.

[Grayblue]

xe N on, on 19 July 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

What is the reason for poptarting? Simple. It minimizes the exposure time to enemy's fire during the own attack.

What is the solution? Simple. Increasing the expose time to enemy's fire during jump.

How is that done? Simple. By drastically increasing the jump thrust und jump height while removing the ability to stop the jump process by releasing the spacebar.

Why do that when there are solutions that does not kill mobility for non pop tart mechs?

[jaxjace]

poptarts are the least meta seriously. they never were a problem. its called a long range build, close the gap.

Its all about the lrm pop and arty spam groups now.

[Livewyr]

Even easier!

Increase the CD on PPC and Gauss to 6-8 seconds...

[Mcgral18]

jaxjace, on 19 July 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

poptarts are the least meta seriously. they never were a problem. its called a long range build, close the gap.

Its all about the lrm pop and arty spam groups now.

...if you say so.

[Biglead]

Even easier!


Any mech that fires more than 20 points of damage instantly goes Stackpole!

[Yokaiko]

Grayblue, on 19 July 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

I was never really bothered much about pop-tarting. I actually liked it when my opponents did it, and when they realized bunny hopping don't save them from their face getting burned off, it soon stops.

Anyway, although I don't care, since all these so called "solutions" to pop-tarting is hurting my non-pop-tart mechs, I will tell you what the solution is.

No, it's not jump jets. No, it's not pin point damage. Pop-tarters were laughing at you all along for messing with the wrong source of the problem.

What makes pop-tart viable is that they can just take a snap shot and expect a 10~20+ damage hit.

THAT is the source of the problem.

Solution?

Simple! REDUCE PPC and Gauss projectile speed by at 25~30%.

You know they already did this right?

[yalk]

xe N on, on 19 July 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

What is the reason for poptarting? Simple. It minimizes the exposure time to enemy's fire during the own attack.

What is the solution? Simple. Increasing the expose time to enemy's fire during jump.

How is that done? Simple. By drastically increasing the jump thrust und jump height while removing the ability to stop the jump process by releasing the spacebar.

This, in fact is the solution...partially


MWLL's JJ feature worked similarly, you could ,however, control how much JJ to apply allowing mobility...it morphed over time from charge direction with movement keys to torso twist facing, regardless JJ gave you great mobility to scale verticle objects...

Pop tarting did happen BUT! Was limited by the fact you could NOT control the rate of fall....you only used "fuel" when ascending and only recharged on the ground...there was also a second "pause" in the air at the top of your ascent (however much you wanted that to be) AND the rapid speed at which you jumped made it difficult to fine tune...

This made them remarkably useful movement tools, it did also allow you to pop tart....the rapid ascent and pause at the top allowed the pop tarter to jump from behind great distances knowing he could use his full allotment of juice and then fall safely to earth...it also allowed easy acquisition of targets as you paused...


"But yalk? How did this keep pop tarting down???"

1. They were a little more difficult to use finely tuned to only expose your guns to fire before falling behind cover, pop tarting as we see it in MWO did happen, but it took a fair amount more skill to pull it off and take NO return fire...even the best could be shot back

2. The pause at the top allowed ample time for the pop tart to fire but also allowed ample time for the victim to blow his legs/arm/head clean off...


3. There was a minimum amount you would rise with a tap, this procluded small hops over cover, without destroying mobility

4. There was also slight momentum upward (trying to remember correctly)

The whole idea of pop tarting is to limit return fire, MWLL solution was to not prevent it ever occurring, but to take away the defining ideal result (damage to enemy and not yourself) and increase it's skill cap to a point that even the best could still take return fire...


The result was that pop tarting worked it's best when no one was looking, you'd take a shot and fall back, they would search for the shooter and not seeing a mech standing on a ridge go back to the fight....if you were located your next jump would see you taking enough damage to make it not worth it...and if you over shot your jump you found yourself hanging peacefully in full view of the entire enemy team, from which you'd be torn to ribbons...


So. Did pop tarting still happen? Yep, did I personally still rage at them? Sometimes, if they were good enough...most times you traded shots till one of you was crippled or dead, like any other fight....the only time it sucked was if you had lots of short range DOT weapons, and he had pin point burst....if you were in range you couldn't do enough to kill him...but that's more a burst damage>DPS in mechwarrior ....


PGI will never fix a problem by changing the result of an action to a less desiable outcome, they will always focus on the action itself and thus I've wasted time writing this...

Edited by yalk, 20 July 2014 - 06:28 AM.

[Bront]

xe N on, on 19 July 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

How is that done? Simple. By drastically increasing the jump thrust und jump height while removing the ability to stop the jump process by releasing the spacebar.

So, prevent JJs from being used for added maneuverability or soften landings, or accurately jumping somewhere in general (it's easy to overjump some spots). Got it.