57 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Spike Brave, on 23 July 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

The problem isn't that teamwork isn't rewarded, it's that a lot of players don't operate as a team. Kill assists have a higher base bonus. Spotting, narc, tag, uav and counter ecm are all bonuses. Also the cbill reward for winning conquest through assist is quite good. The rewards are there, but people don't do these things.

that's because you can earn a LOT more (not just a few thousand we're talking tens of thousands) cbills for just killing enemy mechs instead.

Boosting other rewards to let players earn just as much doing other things will help promote. It's not a magical pill that fixes everything but it works in conjunction with other things to HELP increase teamwork and non-combat styles

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Maxx Blue, on 23 July 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

So...I guess I feel like teamwork is its own reward since it very often leads to winning...at least in pugs.

You mean, carrying the entire team to victory? Then yes, using them as fodder counts as teamwork.

[Sandpit]

omg guys, is it really that hard to just say, hey this is a good idea! or I don't like it because (insert reasons here) instead of talking about how PGI sucks as a company and/or how they won't bother listening anyhow?

I understand the cynicism, I really do, but if all you're going to do is respond with stuff like I mentioned above then you're a part of the problem. This? This is exactly how and why good ideas and suggestions in the forums get drowned out, dismissed, and otherwise derailed and ignored. 2 pages of responses and maybe 3-4 actual on-topic responses.

Don't be a part of the problem, help come up with solutions. If you don't like the idea, hey that's great but come up with more than "i don't like it", give reasons, show examples, and help come up with ideas that would work

Like it? Hey, that's great too! Respond showing you support the idea, get others to do the same, and spread the word.

[Spike Brave]

Sandpit, on 23 July 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

that's because you can earn a LOT more (not just a few thousand we're talking tens of thousands) cbills for just killing enemy mechs instead.

Boosting other rewards to let players earn just as much doing other things will help promote. It's not a magical pill that fixes everything but it works in conjunction with other things to HELP increase teamwork and non-combat styles

I disagree. Killing a mech nets you 4300 or 2100 cbills depending on mode where assists net you 6500 or 3200. A savoir kill will get you 6500 and that one is for helping a player about to die. The various lrm spotting bonuses are 2100 or 1100 depending on mode and that's about half of what you get for a kill. Counter ECM is 1500. It's 37500 if you win conquest by cap which requires good teamwork.

The killing gets you the most rewards argument falls flat for me in light of those numbers. I agree the game needs more teamwork, but the issue isn't that there are no or poor rewards for teamwork. They are there but people just don't take advantage of them.

[Sandpit]

Spike Brave, on 23 July 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

I agree the game needs more teamwork, but the issue isn't that there are no or poor rewards for teamwork. They are there but people just don't take advantage of them.

ok then, how would YOU improve it?

I've given ideas on how to improve it. You've.... well all you've said is you agree but you don't like this idea for some reason. So how would you help improve the teamwork aspect? (I personalyl don't see how anyone wouldn't like an idea that helps improve that aspect of it but to each their own)

[TB Freelancer]

Its not like extremely well done examples haven't been out for the better part of a decade. Battlefield 2142 was the first major title to have the squad system where players were rewarded for performing actions to support their squad or following the squad commander's orders.

While the BF version of unlocks wouldn't fit in with MWO, other benefits could be added to the game i.e. granting a module for the duration of the match, extended range, faster cool downs, etc. I can off the top of my head think of several dozen possibilities.

Honestly, coming up with ideas that would not only reward team play but make it desirable, just isn't that hard when it comes to the broad strokes. Getting down to the fine details, like how to actually code and implement them, keep them from being easily exploited, this far down development is another matter entirely.

Edited by TB Freelancer, 23 July 2014 - 06:29 PM.

[Sandpit]

TB Freelancer, on 23 July 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

Its not like extremely well done examples haven't been out for the better part of a decade. Battlefield 2142 was the first major title to have the squad system where players were rewarded for performing actions to support their squad or following the squad commander's orders.

While the BF version of unlocks wouldn't fit in with MWO, other benefits could be added to the game i.e. granting a module for the duration of the match, extended range, faster cool downs, etc. I can off the top of my head think of several dozen possibilities.

Honestly, coming up with ideas that would not only reward team play but make it desirable, just isn't that hard when it comes to the broad strokes. Getting down to the fine details, like how to actually code and implement them, keep them from being easily exploited, this far down development is another matter entirely.

I agree, but that's what threads like this are for. We kick around ideas. That's EXACTLY how Narc got some love. It doesn't help when you have to weed through 50 "PGI sucks" which has nothing to do with the topic

[Spike Brave]

Sandpit, on 23 July 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

ok then, how would YOU improve it?

I've given ideas on how to improve it. You've.... well all you've said is you agree but you don't like this idea for some reason. So how would you help improve the teamwork aspect? (I personalyl don't see how anyone wouldn't like an idea that helps improve that aspect of it but to each their own)

Honestly, I'm waiting for CW. Right now it doesn't matter if you win or lose. CW will make it matter if you win or lose. I think THAT is the problem. People don't care about winning because there is no reason to so they cling to their KDR as the measure of success. They've mentioned that you may l have restricted access to certain mechs/equipment, because of higher prices, if your faction loses control of a planet. Well now it doesn't matter if you have a 15/1 KDR if you can't buy your stuff. Now it's the win that matters.

Sorry for the long winded answer. I think making winning matter would help the teamwork issue.

[Spike Brave]

Sandpit, on 23 July 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

ok then, how would YOU improve it?

I've given ideas on how to improve it. You've.... well all you've said is you agree but you don't like this idea for some reason. So how would you help improve the teamwork aspect? (I personalyl don't see how anyone wouldn't like an idea that helps improve that aspect of it but to each their own)

Thought about it some more. I didn't say that I didn't like your idea. I do. What I was saying is that your idea has been implemented. They have good rewards for helping the team. I'm sorry if you felt like I was busting your chops.

[Sandpit]

Spike Brave, on 23 July 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

Thought about it some more. I didn't say that I didn't like your idea. I do. What I was saying is that your idea has been implemented. They have good rewards for helping the team. I'm sorry if you felt like I was busting your chops.

that's kinda the point though and what I'm trying to prevent. Ideas like this often get flooded with posts like yours (I promise it's not personal and I'm not being hostile, just pointing it out) where the poster gives a bunch of commentary on the suggestion but then offers nothing in the way of "i like it" or "i don't like it"

Stuff like that isn't going to cut it if you want to show PGI that the community supports (or disagrees with) an idea and/or suggestion. I'm honestly just trying to come up with some things that will help improve the teamwork and teamplay in this game because until stuff like that starts happening this will be nothing but a stomp and shoot deathmatch game with the same sort of gameplay that I can get playing CoD.

I also agree 100% that CW is one of the more important aspects of that BUT, unless they do something about putting in actual goals outside of standing on a cap point, nothing will change in game play. Heck, even CoD offers objectives in their various game modes beyond "shoot the other guy" or "stand in one spot for x amount of time". The game modes are going to help with that more than anything else.

If CW were implemented tomorrow, you would still ahve the exact same game play and styles you see today. Even with CW implemented, the objective would still be "shoot the other guy faster than he shoots you" with the only "strategy" involving which planet to attack.

Stuff like this, coupled with the suggestions that myself and a few others have made regarding modules, and adding in additional objectives are what will push this game past deathmatch. No single feature will change that, it has to be a combination of various things that help guide players into WANTING to do somethign other than just shoot the other guy by giving them something to do. I mean angry birds has a deeper backstory than MWO. That's just sad given all the history, lore, and things they could do with it.

[VanillaG]

Sandpit, on 23 July 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

ok then, how would YOU improve it?

I've given ideas on how to improve it. You've.... well all you've said is you agree but you don't like this idea for some reason. So how would you help improve the teamwork aspect? (I personalyl don't see how anyone wouldn't like an idea that helps improve that aspect of it but to each their own)

The issue is that we have teamwork based rewards but it is not communicated to new players very well. A simple tutorial or FAQ would go along way towards making new players aware of the rewards and how to earn them. As for new types of rewards here is what I got:

• AMS reward - You earn a reward if your AMS shoots down missiles targeted on a friendly mech. You earn a flat reward per combination of friendly and enemy mech like Spotting assists work now plus a bonus based on the total number of missiles destroyed.
  
• ECM reward - You earn a reward if your ECM causes an enemy mech to lose lock on a friendly mech. You only get one reward per combination of friendly and enemy mech like Spotting assists work now.
  
• Tag/Narc and Spotting rewards - Change the existing rewards to award an assist and small % of the damage done while spotting when a specified minimum amount of damage is done to the target. You earn a flat per target XP award per target but can accumulate damage rewards throughout the match. Tag/Narc increases the % damage rewarded for spotting when using those 2 items.

Edited by VanillaG, 23 July 2014 - 09:03 PM.

[Sandpit]

Agreed, passing on info to new(er) players is a must, but what could we ADD to the current system to reward players who play as a team as opposed to derping off in full rambo mode?

[Firemage]

One thing that could promote team work would be some new stats. Right now many players care about their KDR, why not add stats like "Average Assists per Match", Spots Per Match, or other things that give players a way to judge how well they help other players, rather than just how well they snipe or dish out over all damage.

[Sandpit]

Firemage, on 23 July 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

One thing that could promote team work would be some new stats. Right now many players care about their KDR, why not add stats like "Average Assists per Match", Spots Per Match, or other things that give players a way to judge how well they help other players, rather than just how well they snipe or dish out over all damage.

that's a cool idea, I'd take it one step further and add stuff like forum badges and titles for it as well. (stuff like that takes a very minimal amount of effort and resources to do)

[Firemage]

Just to take it another step , "% Damage Damage Per Target", "Average Damage Per Target", "Narc/Tag Assists per Match", "Average Component Destruction", "Average AMS Interception" and so on.

Just more numbers to let players know there is more to playing than just getting the most kills.

-Gabe

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

AMS should reward based on LRM's shot down in a match.

ECM mechs should get reward for both covering teammates with the ECM bubble, and for countering Enemy ECM.

Those who use BAP should get extra for sharing targeting data and countering ECM.

That's 4 things that need to happen. Tag/NARC already gets bonus'.

OH and can we get higher rewards for base caps in Assault please... seriously it's a valid win, I should get just as many C-bills for taking over the enemy's base than if I fought it out. Yes I know we ended up with low c-bill rewards for caps back when it was purely cap the red square... but now there's base defenses and longer cap times... so this "nerf" to gains should be reverted.

[Captain Pee Sheets]

The reward for teamwork is winning.

[Khobai]

Kills/assists definitely need an update. IMO they should just get rid of assists entirely. Instead the game should award fractional klils based on the % damage you did to a mech. If you did 90% of the damage you should get 0.9 kills regardless of who gets the kill shot.

Quote

Those who use BAP should get extra for sharing targeting data and countering ECM.

I disagree. BAP is passive. You shouldnt get rewards for passive use of equipment. Rewards should be for active participation only. Mechs with AMS or ECM equipped shouldnt get rewarded just for having them either, thats ridiculous. Bonuses should have to be earned by actively playing, not given freely for using passive equipment. Capping, Tag, NARC, are all examples of active participation which should give much bigger bonuses.

In tabletop BAP allows mechs to drop stationary sensor probes into the ground which detect enemies. Youre allowed to have two probes per BAP. So something like that could be implemented as a non-passive way of gaining bonuses with BAP.

And rather than rewarding you for shooting down missiles with AMS you should be rewarded for how undamaged your mech is at the end of the match. You should get a performance bonus based on the ratio between your damage done and damage taken. That way youre rewarded for actively doing as much damage as you can while taking as little damage in return as possible. AMS would passively factor into that by reducing damage taken but it would be a very small part of the whole.

Edited by Khobai, 24 July 2014 - 03:26 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Khobai, on 24 July 2014 - 03:00 AM, said:

I disagree. BAP is passive. You shouldnt get rewards for passive use of equipment. Rewards should be for active participation only. Mechs with AMS or ECM equipped shouldnt get rewarded just for having them either, thats ridiculous. Bonuses should have to be earned by actively playing, not given freely for using passive equipment. Capping, Tag, NARC, are all examples of active participation which should give much bigger bonuses.

In tabletop BAP allows mechs to drop stationary sensor probes into the ground which detect enemies. Youre allowed to have two probes per BAP. So something like that could be implemented as a non-passive way of gaining bonuses with BAP.

Correct, in TableTop.

Clearly we're not going by that model or ECM wouldn't be as overpowered as it is. Since BAP is considered a counter to ECM, you should get a bonus for using it to counter ECM.

[The Blood God]

Sandpit, on 23 July 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

that's because you can earn a LOT more (not just a few thousand we're talking tens of thousands) cbills for just killing enemy mechs instead.

ya get bigger rewards for spot assist and kill assist than ya do for kills and unless ya average 400-500 dmg then you'll get bigger rewards for the spots and KA's than ya will for dmg but it doesn't go far enough really it is some thing i try to milk in matches but often get me killed in solo but some times i finish with 12 assists 0 kills a handful of spot assists and <200 dmge and still clear 350,000 c-bills with prem time,

i would like to see rewards for neutralizing whole vollies of lrms with ams when most of the team equips it very little gets through (which is why i don't think they need nerfing)