39 replies to this topic

[Skyfaller]

Viktor Drake, on 25 July 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

However I also realized that might jump capable light and medium mechs did not seem much effected which was odd because supposedly the underlying problem with JJs was they were just too good across the board so why weren't lights and mediums hit hard too?

Then it dawned on me, it wasn't that JJs were too good, rather it was because Jump Jet capable heavy and assault mechs were popular and it just so happens that currently the community is up in arms about how so few lights and medium mechs were being used.

In case you missed where I am going with this. Basically PGI nerfed the crap out of Jump capable heavy and assaults in order to try to "convince" more people to play lights and mediums.

....

Anyway, looks like another typical example of PGI mentality. The "Break something to fix something else" school of balancing.

Wrong. I play a Spider as my main ride and I can tell you the JJ nerf to the lights was even more messed up. Leg damage and fall distance on lights makes the use of JJ's to be suicidal in nature. Its not a matter of 'learn to save fuel to cushion your fall' , its a matter of no matter how high or low you jump or how much you cushion your fall, you STILL get leg damage nonstop from fall damage.

A stalker, a non-JJ mech, can walk off a cliff that is 3x higher than itself and suffer zero leg damage. A spider cannot fall from HALF a spider's height without taking full fall damage to the legs. This means in terrain, if you're running at full speed and one of those bomb-craters is in your path...you WILL take fall damage just from falling into it (not even using JJs).

The JJ nerf reduced the thrust of the jets. This makes the lights now achieve even LESS height in the jump while consuming more fuel. It has been tested that a spider cannot jump over a jagermech and not take fall damage because the fuel and the lower jet power does not allow the spider to cushion its landing enough to prevent leg damage.

The real reason for the JJ nerf is more likely to be that PGI is going to be releasing some cash-grabbing module that makes the JJ's work as before or better than before. No company does nerfs-for-cash better than PGI.

[Angel of Annihilation]

See I didn't notice too much of a difference on my Firestarter or Griffin both which mount 5 JJs I believe. SH in my opinion was always a bit of a pig in the air with only 3 JJs and I will be honest, I haven't played my SH for a long while because of that so don't know how bad they were effected.

What I did notice was a massive difference with my QD, CTF-3D, Victor 9S and Heavy Metal which are my favorite IS mechs.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

we need more forward thrust and a higher arc... dependant on the dirrection your going in the mech.

IE if you're moving forward or standing still, your mech jumpjets forward with an upward momentum as well [it doesn't feel like mechs are getting high enough, remember, you're supposed to get aproximately 30m vertical thrust out of each jet you take. as well as possible 30m distance.] and jumping backwards when moving back.

Jump Jetting, and getting it to be desireable for movement while being somewhat less so to poptarts and jump snipers is the tough job here. but personally I DO feel the reticle shake is in a good place... while under thrust it seems that my weapons fire lower than where I'm aiming, and that's a good thing. Though I think the "computer" needs to overcorrect once you let off of the jump jets so that shots might go a bit high right off after jumping.

Still, I don't think Heavy's/Assaults were hit with the nerf bat for jumping just because fewer people are playing lights/mediums. I really think it's just a situation of tricky balancing of JJ's to get them into a sweet spot where they're useful for movement, and useful for combat... but where Jump Sniping/Poptarts is NOT the go to tactic.

[Alex Warden]

my Shawks, Quickdraws and all other JJ capables were build around guerilla tacticts... i litterally can´t use them properly anymore... i NEVER poptarted, and yet PGI took the one element away that was still fun... hence my 2 days in 2 weeks that i played.. just another one of countless bandaids in a competely broken game system...

ggclose...

[CeeKay Boques]

Oh Quickdraw and SHawk.

Alex Warden, on 25 July 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

my Shawks, Quickdraws and all other JJ capables were build around guerilla tacticts... i litterally can´t use them properly anymore... i NEVER poptarted, and yet PGI took the one element away that was still fun... hence my 2 days in 2 weeks that i played.. just another one of countless bandaids in a competely broken game system...

ggclose...

[CocoaJin]

Maybe it's a good thing arcade-ish squirrel movement has been deminished some, it was short coming many were too happy to exploit. I say buck up men and adapt, it's normal to be a little fussy about being weened off the *** of incomplete and weak game models(especially early on in a game's development). But just think what big and strong MechWarriors we'll grow up to be.

Ideally, we'll see other refinements that work to illustrate our inherent strengths and advantages of being light and mediums mechs over heavies...such as the slow down mechanics for slopes. Let's campaign for more improved physics modeling or physics inspired mechanics for locomotion, we may find such refined mechanics would further benefit us over our pudgy counter-parts. Because anything that makes movement more complex may very well magnify the benefits of our superior mobility.

For instance, it might be worth while to include a long stride/leap ability(not a damn bunny hop!). That we can use to hurdle small obstacles/protrusion that would slow or stop a heavier mech with small step heights like an Atlas. Such a lunge could be used for fouling shots from enemies, at the expense of slowing us briefly upon landing...so repetitive use would only slow and reduce lunge distance significantly...possibly resulting in you actually having no forward momentum at all and ending up in a stalled attempt at another leap.

Maybe running slides to change direction faster and within a smaller lateral footprint than a standard running turn. This could also be used to face/square up in a certain direction faster than stopping or circling around on the run.

Granted, improved movement mechanics can also be used against us, like including the ability to slip due to aggressive moment on concrete/asphalt or rocky terrains....especially problematic for non-anthropopamorphic mechs lacking working arms to keep one from going flat on their asses.

[terrycloth]

After the JJ nerf I took jump jets off all my mechs because they just got me killed. Every so often I put them back on, try to jump over something, and end up faceplanting into a wall and getting killed. Then I take them off again, because they're completely broken and useless. I can run into walls and get killed just fine on my own, thanks.

This is in a Jenner. I don't even own anything heavier than a medium.

[PANZERKAT]

We don't even have a crouch ability yet...I think it's optimistic to believe small lurches or movements other then W-A-S-D will be in the game.

[Lefty Lucy]

terrycloth, on 25 July 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

After the JJ nerf I took jump jets off all my mechs because they just got me killed. Every so often I put them back on, try to jump over something, and end up faceplanting into a wall and getting killed. Then I take them off again, because they're completely broken and useless. I can run into walls and get killed just fine on my own, thanks.

This is in a Jenner. I don't even own anything heavier than a medium.

It's worth using one to reduce the amount of fall damage you take. That's about it.

[PANZERKAT]

JJ enhanced consumables would be good. One shot Jumps. It's in the lore and it would help the ground pounders get over that crucial piece of terrain in a hard fight. Some people opt out of artillery and UAV's.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Alex Warden, on 25 July 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

my Shawks, Quickdraws and all other JJ capables were build around guerilla tacticts... i litterally can´t use them properly anymore... i NEVER poptarted, and yet PGI took the one element away that was still fun... hence my 2 days in 2 weeks that i played.. just another one of countless bandaids in a competely broken game system...

ggclose...

Yeah this is my general problem with it. An entire legitimate play style was totally broken by the changes, changes that no one asked for and did nothing to improve the overall game.

CocoaJin, on 25 July 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

Maybe it's a good thing arcade-ish squirrel movement has been deminished some, it was short coming many were too happy to exploit. I say buck up men and adapt, it's normal to be a little fussy about being weened off the *** of incomplete and weak game models(especially early on in a game's development). But just think what big and strong MechWarriors we'll grow up to be.

See this is where I disagree. From the time I started playing MWO I have felt that JJs were massively lacking in the mobility department. The fact you could not actively thrust up, forward, back and side to side just never fit with how JJs were suppose to work. Keep in mind that in table top, each JJ gave you 30m of mobility so a mech with 5 JJs should be able to jump 150m either straight up or as a horizontal hop. However I learned to adapt to the very clumsy and substandard JJ mechanics that were in the game while always advocating the addition of at least forward and backward vector thrust to bring them up to par.

Now I realize that 30m of mobility per JJ is too much for a balanced game but what we had was actually too little. Nerfing what was already too little just added insult to injury. Honestly there is no way anyone could possible think what we had was too much JJ mobility, not when a CTF-3D mounting 4 JJs could barely jump over an enemy Atlas as it was.

Note: A better way to fix JJs would be to give them close to TT mobility but also make them vulnerable to enemy fire like they were in all the novels and lore. Example, Spider jumps high into the air and gets hit by a Guass Rifle round. Suddenly that Spider it cartwheeling out of control and into the ground suffering massive damage because the mass of such a heavy round hitting it knocked it askew making it unable to recover.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 25 July 2014 - 12:47 PM.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Malleus011, on 25 July 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

And as for this game not being for stock 'mechs - maybe that's part of the problem.

It's a huge problem. You don't really get a feel of how a Mech can PEWPEW or STOMPSTOMP until you buy the Mech and get it Elited. When you factor in the learning curve to become an efficient pilot without any sort of rudimentary tutorial/bot-campaign... A person would really have to be interested in getting to know this game. Not only that, but this game essentially forces you to spend $Real Money$ right off the bat due to very very restrictive Mech Bay space.

From my perspective, those factors dissuaded me from trying this game for a year or so.

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 25 July 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[PANZERKAT]

"Adapt" being the excuse of the year. I'm sure if we dig up old posts it will be the same PGI apologists that used " It's closed Beta" as an excuse to the situation the game was in. NOT MUCH has changed.

When I get tuurd thrown in my face I don't "adapt" and like it. I stop the source of tuurd being flung my way.

Edited by KOMMISSAR KITTY, 26 July 2014 - 02:02 PM.

[Fiona Marshe]

Flash Frame, on 25 July 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

IE if you're moving forward or standing still, your mech jumpjets forward with an upward momentum as well [it doesn't feel like mechs are getting high enough, remember, you're supposed to get aproximately 30m vertical thrust out of each jet you take. as well as possible 30m distance.] and jumping backwards when moving back.

No, each jumpjet is supposed to provide about 6m of vertical and 30m of horizontal thrust. (1JJ = 1 elevation in TT).

[CocoaJin]

KOMMISSAR KITTY, on 26 July 2014 - 12:31 AM, said:

"Adapt" being the excuse of the year. I'm sure if we dig up old posts it will be the same PGI apologists that used " It's closed Beta" as an excuse to the situation the game was in. NOW MUCH has changed.

When I get tuurd thrown in my face I don't "adapt" and like it. I stop the source of tuurd being flung my way.

Adapt isn't an excuse, it's an expected aspect of playing a game that is constantly in development, being refined, being balanced. It doesn't matter how much more they might have gotten complete in Closed Beta, the need to adapt would still exist...the term "complete" will never apply to game like this, so they have to release the game at some point. Regardless of release state, one can not reasonably expect any relationship, any advantage, etc, to not change, evolve, blow up in your face, or materialize into something new over time.

One can't expect or demand things on the battlefield or in the development of a game battlefield to remain static. Yeah it sucks, but thats the reality of game development and war. Let the devs do their jobs and flesh out the JJ and movement mechanics. Consider it a refinement just like the changes in run speeds up slopes.

You can take it personal if you want, but it would be counter productive. Instead, it's better to enter into such games with realistic expectations, with one of those being the prerequisite that you remain flexible and open to change. That will help keep the frustration and tantrums to a minimum...or you can wage a fruitless **** war. It's up to you.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Fiona Marshe, on 26 July 2014 - 04:29 AM, said:

No, each jumpjet is supposed to provide about 6m of vertical and 30m of horizontal thrust. (1JJ = 1 elevation in TT).

Agreed, my screw up.

[PANZERKAT]

CocoaJin, on 26 July 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

Adapt isn't an excuse, it's an expected aspect of playing a game that is constantly in development, being refined, being balanced. It doesn't matter how much more they might have gotten complete in Closed Beta, the need to adapt would still exist...the term "complete" will never apply to game like this, so they have to release the game at some point. Regardless of release state, one can not reasonably expect any relationship, any advantage, etc, to not change, evolve, blow up in your face, or materialize into something new over time.

One can't expect or demand things on the battlefield or in the development of a game battlefield to remain static. Yeah it sucks, but thats the reality of game development and war. Let the devs do their jobs and flesh out the JJ and movement mechanics. Consider it a refinement just like the changes in run speeds up slopes.

You can take it personal if you want, but it would be counter productive. Instead, it's better to enter into such games with realistic expectations, with one of those being the prerequisite that you remain flexible and open to change. That will help keep the frustration and tantrums to a minimum...or you can wage a fruitless **** war. It's up to you.

You call this being refined? Interesting. I suppose applying the term here is relative.

Adapting to bad game implementation is a lesson in futility and depression. You may be happy with whatever is crammed in your face, but many of us aren't, hence the reason for a forum to exist. Dialogue.

Inane retorts of "adjust/adapt/create new tactics" doesn't apply when it comes to lackluster game changes.

[Spheroid]

The plummeting population of the light queue was after the thrust nerf. It only took a minor hit after the leg damage patch.

[CocoaJin]

KOMMISSAR KITTY, on 26 July 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

You call this being refined?

Not "refined" which implies it's done/complete/final. I'm saying its in the process, that's incomplete, but part of an active progression toward something better...so yes, "being refined".

The game is in flux and that's not relative or an opinion. It's a factual description of what and where the game is. This reality begs for one with rationale thought to therefor adjust their perspective and provide the game some latitude in how it attempts to flesh out its mechanics. That's not to say you can't disagree with changes, but no need to have a hissy fit about it. In the meantime, assuming you want a healthy relationship with your MWO hobby, part of that latitude is to remain flexible and to adapt...or be miserable, your choice.

Edited by CocoaJin, 26 July 2014 - 02:58 PM.

[PANZERKAT]

Oh, I'm positive it's a process as well. Just as SRMS being crap for many moons was a process and the other long list of processes that were left to stagnate due to improper implementation.

If the goal was to hamstring all JJ mechs equally. It was achieved. If it was to curb jump sniping somewhat, which they said they didn't want to do, it's failed. If they wanted a middle ground where lighter mechs aren't hit as hard with the change, because they rely on it for their role, I guess they haven't rolled their train that far down the track to come to that conclusion.

The changes we see feel more and more like closed beta "lets see what happens" patches than a game release where decisions like this impact the morale of your product to a great many.

Also, refining something means dev testing and then closed testing. That's refining.

Edited by KOMMISSAR KITTY, 28 July 2014 - 06:57 AM.