49 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

Viktor Drake, on 26 July 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

A system like this would allow JJs to be easily used as a mobility tool to flank the enemy or come at them from surprise angles. However it now makes in combat use very high risk, but then again, jumping entirely over the front line of the enemy to land 150m behind them might very well be worth the risk.

This is how I would like to see JJs in game.

I used to use them just so Treb with an ER-PPC and a triple SRM stack, 5 JJs and a HUGE engine made it fly a good damn long way, so bouncing between building blasting away was my thing.

Not anymore poor thing can't clear a car, much less my pattened over-the-fatlas antics.

The current JJs are utter trash.

Edited by Yokaiko, 26 July 2014 - 12:17 PM.

[LoneMaverick]

Viktor Drake, on 26 July 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

You know I have been a Battletech fan since almost when they first came out and I have never seen MW:LL to this day. All I can is is how the hell did I miss that game. From the few Youtube videos I watch, MW:LL is the game I wanted MWO to be. Holy ****, vehicles, battle armor, huge maps, battles that actually feel like battles...WOW.

PGI get off your rear end and get to work. Honestly I can't understand how you had such a great example of how MWO should have been and missed the mark so far.

Same here, missed that train and am so sad that I did, game looks fantastic.
Battle armor, armored vehicles, AeroSpace fighters, looks like the game had it all!

In yet another "we need to fix JJ" thread someone posted a youtube video showing some JJ changes they were making, with 3 different "types" of JJs geared for different types of mobility, wish I could find it but I'm not having any luck.

I would definitely like to see JJs function with more of a boost mechanic than a hover mechanic, but one reason I think they keep them so sloggy and slow is because of HSR issues with this silly ass engine.

[MechB Kotare]

LoneMaverick, on 26 July 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

Same here, missed that train and am so sad that I did, game looks fantastic.
Battle armor, armored vehicles, AeroSpace fighters, looks like the game had it all!

In yet another "we need to fix JJ" thread someone posted a youtube video showing some JJ changes they were making, with 3 different "types" of JJs geared for different types of mobility, wish I could find it but I'm not having any luck.

I would definitely like to see JJs function with more of a boost mechanic than a hover mechanic, but one reason I think they keep them so sloggy and slow is because of HSR issues with this silly ass engine.

You do realize that MWO and MWLL are the same (CryTek) engine right? mwll was originally crysis wars modification. Im not really sure now, but i think MWLL devs even worked with outdated CryEngine version back then.

So sorry, but only conclusion i can therefor see when you mention "HSR issues" is code failure.

We still experience invisible walls, general hitreg issues, stuff MWLL never had, or even if, it was very small ammount of it.

So i can't agree that CryEngine is ****

Edited by MechB Kotare, 26 July 2014 - 12:41 PM.

[LoneMaverick]

MechB Kotare, on 26 July 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

You do realize that MWO and MWLL are the same (CryTek) engine right? mwll was originally crysis wars modification. Im not really sure now, but i think MWLL devs even worked with outdated CryEngine version back then.

So sorry, but only conclusion i can therefor see when you mention "HSR issues" is code failure.

We still experience invisible walls, general hitreg issues, stuff MWLL never had, or even if, it was very small ammount of it.

So i can't agree that CryEngine is ****

Actually no I didn't even think about it honestly.

Just seems like they did drastically different things with the engine I guess, and while I'm sure MW:LL had its bugs to squish and whatnot, from what I've watched on youtube(and I've watched alot) the game seems quite a bit more solid, everything told.

And it was just made by some small team of guys who made it as a mod? Did they charge money for it? Pretty....disturbing I'm guessing if they didn't compared to MWO, with the whole 30+ bucks a mech and all that.

Guess I'm just a big fan of the Unreal engine, especially for small-medium sized dev teams, just feels like a really solid engine with a lot of customization to be had, hell its even free now!

[MechB Kotare]

LoneMaverick, on 26 July 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

Actually no I didn't even think about it honestly.

Just seems like they did drastically different things with the engine I guess, and while I'm sure MW:LL had its bugs to squish and whatnot, from what I've watched on youtube(and I've watched alot) the game seems quite a bit more solid, everything told.

And it was just made by some small team of guys who made it as a mod? Did they charge money for it? Pretty....disturbing I'm guessing if they didn't compared to MWO, with the whole 30+ bucks a mech and all that.

Guess I'm just a big fan of the Unreal engine, especially for small-medium sized dev teams, just feels like a really solid engine with a lot of customization to be had, hell its even free now!

No doubt. MWLL had plenty of bugs as well, but then again, i must repeat myself and say, that MWLL was never really finished. You could say the developement of it stopped in its late beta status.

Can't really tell how big the dev team was, but im pretty sure it was a fan made mod to begin with. I think they were accepting donations at some point, but aside of that, the modification was free to play, without any Pay2Play gameplay limitation. But then again i tried MWLL after i started to play MWO. Don't have any knowledge about MWLL early developement years ago.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 26 July 2014 - 01:10 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

MechB Kotare, on 26 July 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

No doubt. MWLL had plenty of bugs as well, but then again, i must repeat myself and say, that MWLL was never really finished. You could say the developement of it stopped in its late beta status.

Can't really tell how big the dev team was, but im pretty sure it was a fan made mod to begin with. I think they were accepting donations at some point, but aside of that, the modification was free to play, without any Pay2Play gameplay limitation. But then again i tried MWLL after i started to play MWO. Don't have any knowledge about MWLL early developement years ago.

It might have not been finished but holy hell the ground work that they did have finished makes MWO feel like a 5 year old has designed it.

As I mentioned, I never knew about it and yeah I bet it had its problems but from the videos, it is obvious it was a actual full Battletech Experience. Heck for the first time I kind of hope PGI hurries up and fails so some other Developer can pick up the IP and use MW:LL as an example of how it should have been done.

Here is the scary part. Even with the lower res graphics, I would ditch MWO in a heart beat if MW:LL was still around and accessible.

[Miken]

MWLL is still availabe by the way and it's free, based on crysis wars demo client. Everyone can install and check how JJ works there, I think it's best performance of JJ.

[Spheroid]

They can easily fix jump jets by making them full vector thrust enabled like MW2 but no faster than walking speed. The MWO heat system would do the rest.

[Thunder Child]

I just want the Jump put into my Jump Jets. I'm a TT player, and using JJ to launch my Brawler into the thick of a fight was what made JJs so useful. TT JJs were NEVER about "Jumpsniping". That's a modern FPS concept. TT used them to GET to a sniping position, but trying to actually HIT anything while airborne (Unless you were a Clanner with Pulse Lasers) was almost impossible.

So, my personal take on the idea is to give them ludicrous amounts of forward and upward thrust so that mechs can use them to MOVE! As someone above pointed out, make Jumpjets something to allow players to close distances, rather than Pogo on the spot, and suddenly Brawlers will be viable against Snipers and LRM Buckets. This idea of poptarting has no place in the Mechwarrior Universe. Firing while airborne as you leap 150m to your right, fine. But bouncing on the spot behind one piece of cover so that you can fire pinpoint frontloaded damage at someone that can't shoot back? That's just lame.
(It would also make Jumpsniping require a bit more skill, as the sniper would have to take into account their lateral movement, the targets movement, and their landing from 100m up in the air. Instead of the fiasco it is right now, where even I can get 700+ in a CTF-3D just by humping the space bar and trigger.)

Edit: If you want to get an idea of what I mean, take a Spider-5V for a whirl, the one with ALL THE JUMPJETZ!!! That thing moves like I would have expected a Jumpcapable mech to move. Of course, if JJs get buffed, I could see a lot of Rage about 5V pilots going into Low Orbit during their first jump....

Edited by Thunder Child, 26 July 2014 - 02:24 PM.

[Kiri117]

Jump Jets should provide an actual "Jump" and not the slow-burn rocket takeoff style we currently have. See: MechWarrior Living Legends to see it done right.

Still hate that this game basically killed a far superior game in the name of cashgrabs.

Edit: Old footage

Edited by Kiri117, 26 July 2014 - 04:07 PM.

[SolasTau]

For me, JJ's in MWO are yet another good example of 'working as intended' gone horribly, horribly wrong. They've out and out said they want that slow boosting, which I guess is because 'mechs aren't aerodynamic and they want them to feel like they weigh a lot... but IMO, that shows how much they've seriously underestimated how advanced the tech in BattleTech actually IS.

It's easy to say that the Inner Sphere has screwed the pooch (they have) and messed up their technology to an enormous extent... but they still have 31st century tech. Yes, their research stalled, yes, they blew up the ONLY copies of some things and then murdered the scientists that cooked them up... but that doesn't change the fact that they have giant freakin' robots that don't collapse under their own weight. That each and every one of those giant robots has a FUSION reactor that is so stable that when it goes critical, it only really destroys the mech and a VERY small area around it. They have weaponized particle beams, jump ships, drop ships, vehicle mounted repair facilities FOR those giant robots.

When you get down to it... it actually does make sense that these same people probably did figure out a way to cause the 'mechs to not only get airborne, but seriously rocket around. It's all about power to weight ratios, and power to weight, for those of you who aren't gear heads, gets better EVERY YEAR.

[Scurry]

Even in the novels, jumping was often described as a "surprise" tactic.

Our current slow burn is in no way surprising.

I was wondering about incorporating the sudden boost mechanic, together with a charge-up ala the current Gauss. However, with a boost system like this, one might want to lengthen recharge times to make sure it won't be abused. Imagine Spiders with a quick-charging boost like that......

Or maybe just change Clan JJs and keep IS JJs the same? That would make things interesting, and reduce Timbertart stuff, maybe?

Edited by Scurry, 26 July 2014 - 07:26 PM.

[Thunder Child]

I like the concept of the JJs in that MW:LL Vid, but I reckon it would need some serious foward vectoring too, so that people don't just pogo on the spot for poptarting.

Let me just clear this up. I absolutely despise poptarting. But I have no complaints against skilled pilots pulling off Jump Shots.

The difference between the two, is that Poptarting, you bounce on the spot, using a large piece of cover to protect you from return fire. Sure, you relocate occasionally, but once you've relocated, you proceed to bounce on the spot while firing from cover. The only skill involved in this is either having very fast twitch reflexes, or lining up the shot before launch.
A Jump Shot is where you fire off a shot mid jump. Sounds similar, BUT you're not pogo sticking, because the Jumpjets launch you in an arc. Suddenly, you need to account for your lateral movement, as well as the movement of your target. You need to make sure that your launch arc isn't going to land you somewhere uncomfortable. And due to the increased flight time, you need to plan your flight path to limit your exposure.

I believe the easiest way to remedy this, is to buff jump jets, but give them a massive forward thrust component, which would be directed by the facing of your mechs torso. This could even allow for limited in flight steering, like in MW4. At this point, I'm not sure as to what sort of system should be used regarding thrust levels. A lot of good suggestions have been made. However, I am starting to think that Jumpjets should be a locked feature on mechs equipped with it. So, you have either ALL, or nothing. Gives them a real cost/benefit ratio then, assuming of course that they get buffed into the realm of usefulness, instead of this terrible Poptart state they are in at the moment.

Edit: Also, Is that a NUKE going off in the background in that LL vid?!?

Edited by Thunder Child, 26 July 2014 - 08:37 PM.

[CocoaJin]

I get that JJs should correlate to a specific horizontal distance of about 30m per unit, by where did the idea of them making mech vertical aerobats come from?

It would seem JJs are described as providing improved mobility over obstacles and rough terrain...why would that imply significant vertical ability? How high to you have to be to traverse craggly, rocky terrain? Or a clutch of trees? Or fallen mechs? Or small bodies of water? Why do we assume it's intended to clear cliffs, bluffs and hills hundred plus ft high?

How did they become something suggesting flight jets instead of being exactly what they are called...jump jets, jets to assist in jumping, leaping, clearing surface obstacles?

It would seem they are designed to be used much more horizontally than vertically...considering mech mass, it would be a resource intensive act to propel and hover a mech against gravity...not that you couldn't, it would just seem not to be very good at it in comparison.

I don't see why JJ height needs to be more than 10-20% of horizontal distance for typical use...with pure vertical burns being no where close to the 30m horizontal distance. Maybe full burn only providing 10-15m per unit...with no remaining fuel to soften the landing.

Edited by CocoaJin, 26 July 2014 - 09:16 PM.

[John1352]

Poptarting is really easy to fix: While in the air, weapons have imperfect convergence. This happens while jumpjets are active, and during the fall back down. Instead of putting your 30-40 PP FLD onto one component, you'd get one weapon hitting each component (on average) of an assault sized mech. There would be no way to get convergence back on poptarts. (NO MODULE TO FIX IT)

Poptarting would still be good for low risk damage to enemies, but it would no longer be pinpoint. (much longer time to kill)

Jumpjets and fall damage can be adjusted to make flying brawlers viable.

[Pht]

MechB Kotare, on 26 July 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

I agree with idea of totally remaking the JJ mechanism.

Current JJ system is broken. Promotes poptarting, instead of classic Jumpsniping we know from MW3, MW4, MWLL.

Jump-sniping is even harder to counter than potted-plant pop-tarting. Jumpsniping of necessity makes the jumper a more unpredictable target.

There's really only a few ways for the developers to "fix" the low risk/high reward that jumping out of cover (not out of mere concealment, but actual cover) to hit a taret represents.

They could make it some varying level between moderate, to hard, to impossible to target with the crosshairs while in the air;

They could make jump jets virtually useless (tiny hops, etc, not enough to clear mech scale cover);

They could make it very hard for the 'mech to physically align the weapons in order to hit what it's pilot is tracking with the crosshairs.

The last option isn't open for them; that route was ruled out a long time ago.

So we get some combination of the first two.

Without these, the game becomes palace gates/lunacy on mechwarrior four... a jump from behind cover to shoot assaults only fest.

[Livewyr]

Lefty, I like most of your idea- Two things I would change:

1: Should not need to stop to use JJs. (That would be ridiculous for the faster mechs whose life is speed- not to mention unintuitive.)
2: JJs should add an upper thrust according to number of JJs, as you said, and the forward thrust as well, but the forward thrust would be in addition to the mech's current velocity. (Ex: Spider running 151kph.. has 6 JJs, each providing 5 meters up, and 5 kph forward speed. Mech would jump to 30 meters off the ground, and a combined speed of 181kph. You could apply similar logic to an Assault. HGN with JJs = 15kph forward if sitting still, 75 kph if jumping from 60kph ground speed.)

[Xenon Codex]

My suggestion is to keep it simple. Current system is pretty close. Thrust scales linearly with number of JJ. (PGI mentioned also with size of engine at some point, but it's not currently implemented.)

Only problem I see with current system is that the maximum burn time to full height is constant (around 4 to 5 seconds). It should be scaled according to number of JJ. Something around 1 second full-burn time to full height with max JJ, then increasing burn times with less.

That way if you really wanted to jump high and get there fast, you'll have to equip maximum JJ. But if you just want a bit of additional maneuverability, such as skimming over rough terrain or help going up steep inclines, then 1 or 2 JJ should be sufficient.

I rationalize this by considering that a specific engine size has a fixed amount of energy that can be channeled to the JJ. With only 1 JJ, that's a really small nozzle for the energy to escape. Hence, a single JJ produces a smaller thrust over a longer period of time. But put in maximum JJ and all that energy can be released quickly, propelling your mech to maximum apex in a short amount of time.

I'd also suggest increasing the recharge rate, so using a full-burn with maximum JJ will take a while to fully recharge. Mechs with less JJ would use the energy at a lower rate so would not be affected as much.

[SolasTau]

To keep the system from getting abused for the rocket idea, I'd add a 10 second recharge period for JJ's, which would keep it perfectly consistent with TT. In the Rocket Spider example, the potential exists that the pilot might rocket in, get attention, and then punch the mech out of there. By slapping a 10 second (even 20 secs might be reasonable in context of the game), he has to BE there for a period of time. This accomplishes the goal of making it a tactical choice with reasonable trade offs.

As to CocoaJin, a great deal of jump height is implied. See Death From Above and Highlander Burial (and the Highlander's flavor text) (if done according to the novel, that WAS a light mech). The Highlander in its present form is a SHELL of what it is in TT. One of my favorite assault 'mechs is GREATLY diminished because of the crap they've pulled with Jump Jets, and really, so are ALL jump 'mechs.

Edited by SolasTau, 27 July 2014 - 09:52 AM.

[CocoaJin]

SolasTau, on 27 July 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

As to CocoaJin, a great deal of jump height is implied. See Death From Above and Highlander Burial (and the Highlander's flavor text) (if done according to the novel, that WAS a light mech). The Highlander in its present form is a SHELL of what it is in TT. One of my favorite assault 'mechs is GREATLY diminished because of the crap they've pulled with Jump Jets, and really, so are ALL jump 'mechs.

I get that one should be able to trade horizontal displacement for vertical displacement, but I don't see where people are asserting this trade should be 1:1. It shouldn't.

If we took the Highlander's 90m jump distance and used just half of that for a pure/near vertical burn(point blank use), we'd have 45m of height to use for DFA or clear a 13-story building...more than enough to meet the requirements in which JJs are described, and much closer to a reasonable and realistic trade off for jumping under gravity.

Assume the same performance provided 1/3 of the 90m for vertical height during a 90m jump, we'd have have enough to meet the described requirements of JJs, allowing a Highlander in standard gravity to clear a 9-story building and perform DFA from greater than twice the height of any, if not most, mechs.

So once again, where does the idea of 1:1 height to lateral displacement of JJs come from? Or why does a near 1:1 relationship seem to be the only model that is apparently viable in some eyes? I get that greater JJ performance is desired, but why can't some accept a more realistic interpretation and recognize its in fact viable and consistent with lore...and adapt?

JJs have to be seen as more of a horizontal assist than a vertical one. Even if they provided acceleration forces 1:1, vertical to horizontal, they could only provide at best half of vertical height to horizontal at the given jump range per unit. But gravity will always rob more acceleration upward, thus less velocity, than air resistance will rob from forward velocity out to the specified jump range...a ration of .5:1 would be extra generous in itself...even for a pure vertical burn.

So one could conclude that with a very forgiving model, a pop-tarting Highlander shouldn't sit behind a building of more than 10-stories...with no fuel left over to soften his landing. With a more realistic, but still lore consistent, it would be no more than about 7 stories...maybe 5-stories to save your legs on landing. That sounds reasonable to me.