1258 replies to this topic

[Zfailboat]

I run lots of PPC Mechs - I don't have any problems with them being slower. However considering the speed nurf given to the IS standard PPC. How about removing the 90m Minimum range as compensation (or scaling like clan LRMS). After all IS ERPPC's now have BOTH a speed and range advantage over the standard Variant. Do they really need all 3 advantages?

[IraqiWalker]

Zfailboat, on 13 August 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

I run lots of PPC Mechs - I don't have any problems with them being slower. However considering the speed nurf given to the IS standard PPC. How about removing the 90m Minimum range as compensation (or scaling like clan LRMS). After all IS ERPPC's now have BOTH a speed and range advantage over the standard Variant. Do they really need all 3 advantages?

Standard PPC is 50% cooler, for the same damage. I'd say it's a fair trade

[Major Tannhauser]

Hello ppl. Maybe i have no clue about battletech, call me dumb, but i dont understand, why they dont fix all this pinpoint stuff in the most obvious way:

1.
Give the IS autocannons the same burst fire like the clan ones.
This leaves the ppc and gauss as the only real full-damage-to-one-section weapon (one heat, one ammo dependent).
It also give the chance to implement different acs in the future. I.e. the Deathgiver ac20 fires less but bigger rounds in a single burst, than other ac20.

2. (and far more important)
Implement a damned fire spread like World of Tanks (HERETIC! \o/).
Even when you fire all your ppc together, its very unlikely that all of them hit the same section, at med or long range some miss the enemy mech entirely, even when you aim correct.
When you move, the spread becomes wider, more when you jump.
This way you can even give Mechs different accuracy values, say an jager or riflemen are very accurate when standing still, but loose much when moving full stuff, a cent or hunch on the other side get much less penalty for moving, but not the same standing accuracy like the first ones.
Targeting comps can reduce the spread (or faster), can give you an lead indicator, you can add interesting skills, and so on...

We dont need ghost heat, we dont need slow moving plasma balls, gauss rifles that must be charged and the other halve baked solutions.
But thats only my opinion, so i wish a nice day, maybe someone reflect about this long post.

Sorry for bad english

[Yokaiko]

Sandpit, on 12 August 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

exactly. All it did was hurt PPCs, not actually fix anything

Actually just the main weapon PPC mechs that aren't heavy enough or unable to mount ballistics.

[Cimarb]

Major Tannhauser, on 14 August 2014 - 02:10 AM, said:

Hello ppl. Maybe i have no clue about battletech, call me dumb, but i dont understand, why they dont fix all this pinpoint stuff in the most obvious way:

1.
Give the IS autocannons the same burst fire like the clan ones.
This leaves the ppc and gauss as the only real full-damage-to-one-section weapon (one heat, one ammo dependent).
It also give the chance to implement different acs in the future. I.e. the Deathgiver ac20 fires less but bigger rounds in a single burst, than other ac20.

2. (and far more important)
Implement a damned fire spread like World of Tanks (HERETIC! \o/).
Even when you fire all your ppc together, its very unlikely that all of them hit the same section, at med or long range some miss the enemy mech entirely, even when you aim correct.
When you move, the spread becomes wider, more when you jump.
This way you can even give Mechs different accuracy values, say an jager or riflemen are very accurate when standing still, but loose much when moving full stuff, a cent or hunch on the other side get much less penalty for moving, but not the same standing accuracy like the first ones.
Targeting comps can reduce the spread (or faster), can give you an lead indicator, you can add interesting skills, and so on...

We dont need ghost heat, we dont need slow moving plasma balls, gauss rifles that must be charged and the other halve baked solutions.
But thats only my opinion, so i wish a nice day, maybe someone reflect about this long post.

Sorry for bad english

I completely agree with #1, and think #2 would be great but there are issues with that system and HSR - I am not saying I agree with the stated issues, but that is the excuse.

The only thing I do not agree with is the Gauss charge mechanic. That is actually the one "nerf" that PGI implemented that I really, really like. I was not a fan at all when it was first implemented, but it gave the Gauss such a distinct, unique feel that I would be really upset if it was removed because people wanted to complain about it being difficult.

[Widowmaker1981]

Cimarb, on 11 August 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

I adapted by just swapping them out for LPLs on most of my builds, lol. My WarHawk seemed to do just fine with CERLLs (paired with LPLs), but he only has two anyways, so my build was pretty much untouched.

thats what ive done too.. but look at this:

C-LPL vs. IS ERLL

600m range v 675m
1.3s duration v 1s
6 Tons v 5 Tons
11.8 dmg v 9 dmg
8 heat v 8.5 heat
4.55s cooldown vs 4.25s

The IS ERLL is better, for less tonnage than the C-LPL, and IS mechs are NOT screwed by nasty build restrictions. Clan laser weapons need to be better than IS ones to make up for the locked bad build choices, and inability to field good autocannons. Sorry IS energy boats, but there it is.

these nerfs force clanners that care about efficiency to do nothing other than boat C-ERMLs, SRMs and LRMs. once the nerfhammer hits the C-ERML, clanners will just be missile carriers.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 15 August 2014 - 06:09 AM.

[Cimarb]

Widowmaker1981, on 15 August 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

thats what ive done too.. but look at this:

C-LPL vs. IS ERLL

600m range v 675m
1.3s duration v 1s
6 Tons v 5 Tons
11.8 dmg v 9 dmg
8 heat v 8.5 heat
4.55s cooldown vs 4.25s

The IS ERLL is better, for less tonnage than the C-LPL, and IS mechs are NOT screwed by nasty build restrictions. Clan laser weapons need to be better than IS ones to make up for the locked bad build choices, and inability to field good autocannons. Sorry IS energy boats, but there it is.

these nerfs force clanners that care about efficiency to do nothing other than boat C-ERMLs, SRMs and LRMs. once the nerfhammer hits the C-ERML, clanners will just be missile carriers.

I like my missile boats, but feel little need to use them over any of my other builds, even though 95% of my IS builds were/are missile boats. I still have fun playing them, but I absolutely LOVE how pulse lasers, MGs and ACs work and sound for Clans, which is why I still have a blast playing them, even if they may not be as powerful as they "should be".

The Clan mechs are how MWO should have had all mechs to begin with. ACs should be burst fire. PPCs should spread damage. Engines/internals should be locked to the chassis. Then, Omni technology should have given an ability to change your hardpoints on Clan mechs and eventually on some IS mechs far down the timeline. That is a totally different subject, though.

Regardless, while I am not a fan of the CERLL nerfs, since they were a bit heavy handed, I think they are very, very well balanced currently.

[SethAbercromby]

I think Gauss and PPC should become completely offset by allowing the player to only fire one at any given time.

After firing a PPC, firing another PPC or charging a Gauss is not possible for 0.5 seconds.

While charging a Gauss, firing a PPC is not possible and so is charging another Gauss. If the Gauss is fired, the lock will remain for 0.5 seconds, but allowing it to automatically discharge or releasing the charge preemptively will feed the energy back into the system and allow using PPC or Gauss immediately.
(Reasoning: No shot fired = no need to punish the player)

This would of couse allow the PPC to fire at any projectile speed it wants, as is cannot be syncronized with Gauss Fire.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 15 August 2014 - 07:12 AM.

[Gorgo7]

Widowmaker1981, on 15 August 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

thats what ive done too.. but look at this:

C-LPL vs. IS ERLL

600m range v 675m
1.3s duration v 1s
6 Tons v 5 Tons
11.8 dmg v 9 dmg
8 heat v 8.5 heat
4.55s cooldown vs 4.25s

The IS ERLL is better, for less tonnage than the C-LPL, and IS mechs are NOT screwed by nasty build restrictions. Clan laser weapons need to be better than IS ones to make up for the locked bad build choices, and inability to field good autocannons. Sorry IS energy boats, but there it is.

these nerfs force clanners that care about efficiency to do nothing other than boat C-ERMLs, SRMs and LRMs. once the nerfhammer hits the C-ERML, clanners will just be missile carriers.

Apples and oranges...
Clan DHS two slots. Can fit them in legs, and CT. In addition to just plain carrying more of them.
IS DHS three slots.

Heat is not an issue.
Nor is tonnage.

Cry me a river.

[CharlieChap]

mmm...

Now many DW's encountered seem to be mounting dual Gauss/PPC or LL combinations.
This 'fix' seems to have ensured that everybody & their aunt with a DW is aware of how effective this loadout is.

Recently read 'Blood Legacy' by M.Stackpole and this does appear to be a very popular loadout in this novel. The mechanisms are described in Blood Legacy, just before Phelan Kell and Natasha Karenski fight the Clan Wolf Trial in Daishi's, only one Gauss can be fired at a time in this BT novel because of the power required.

Quote

All it did was hurt PPCs, not actually fix anything...

Seems so. Griffin is sad and so will Vindicator be....

Edited by CharlieChap, 18 August 2014 - 02:42 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

CharlieChap, on 18 August 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

mmm...

Now many DW's encountered seem to be mounting dual Gauss/PPC or LL combinations.
This 'fix' seems to have ensured that everybody & their aunt with a DW is aware of how effective this loadout is.

Recently read 'Blood Legacy' by M.Stackpole and this does appear to be a very popular loadout in this novel. The mechanisms are described in Blood Legacy, just before Phelan Kell and Natasha Karenski fight the Clan Wolf Trial in Daishi's, only one Gauss can be fired at a time in this BT novel because of the power required.



Seems so. Griffin is sad and so will Vindicator be....

See, that's the thing though. It didn't fix that build at all. It just made it so the lazy and bad players stopped running it, and those were not the guys I worried about with that build anyways.

[Reno Blade]

I recorded 6 matches (one on saturday and 5 today) with different Timber Wolf builds.
I'm only average and the mechs are not fully elited yet, but I still did around 500 - 850 damage with 2-3 kills.
That is still a lot for weapons everyone blaims to be useless.

http://www.youtube.c...F5IPuf-b2M5_4u5

Match1&2 are pug matches with 2ERLL, 2ERML in the arms and 2ERML, 2SRM6 in the torso
3 kills, 7 assist, 772 damage on Crimson Strait.
2 kills, 6 assists, 818 damage RC night.

Spoiler

Match 3 was another Pug match, this time with the old Gauss/2ERPPC meta. Gauss in the RA, one ERPPC in each Torso.
3 kills, 2 assists, 582 damage, but lost the game on River City

Spoiler

Match 4 I teamed up with my buddy Fused and we got paired with a 10man. I used Gauss, 2ERLL in the arms and 2ERML in the torso.
2 kills, 9 assists, 688 damage on Tourmaline Desert.

Spoiler

Match 5 I tried to use a UAC20 and 2MPulse in the arms with one ERML in each side torso.
2 kills, 7 assists, 524 damage on River City again.

Spoiler

Match 6 I still used the UAC20 build.
0 kills, 8 assists, 503 damage on Alpine Peaks.

Spoiler

Note: because there are a lot of threads about CERPPC, CERLL and the nerf, you might see this post posted in different threads.

[Joseph Mallan]

IraqiWalker, on 07 August 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

We need to go hunting together.

Come on over. I'll even let you push the button... Once!

We're hunting Squirrel though!

There are so many Mechs coming down the pipe that will carry Gauss/PPC and the whiners have cried to break heavy weapons... folks they are the HEAVY WEAPONS in the game. death, destruction and Mayhem are what they are meant to bring to the party.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 August 2014 - 05:59 PM.

[MaChIIInA]

Sandpit, on 07 August 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

this is just another overly complicated system though. That's what most of us are trying to avoid. Complicated = bad.

I just don't see it fixing the issue either. you still have 2 gauss/2PPC build that's still doing the exact same thing as before this particular fix.
Now if a 2PPC+2Gauss mech had
.4 second delay on Gauss lining up as it slowly moves into the spot the player wants to hit
and PPC had a .3 delay while moving, it would be near impossible for players to continuously have perfect convergence every shot unless they and their target are both just standing still, in which case I have no sympathy for either one if they're just standing still out in the open.

No sandpit, heat cap is already in the game and it is determined by the amount of heatsinks you have, i proposed that they dont base it on heatsinks and instead have a fixed cap that is determined by weight class.

Edited by ExMaChIIInA, 19 August 2014 - 12:40 PM.

[Archon]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 August 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

Come on over. I'll even let you push the button... Once!

We're hunting Squirrel though!

There are so many Mechs coming down the pipe that will carry Gauss/PPC and the whiners have cried to break heavy weapons... folks they are the HEAVY WEAPONS in the game. death, destruction and Mayhem are what they are meant to bring to the party.

Exactly this. I can't wait to see what people do when the Fafnir comes out.

[Reno Blade]

Fafnir with 2 Heavy Gauss requiring 6 sec cooldown and 2 sec Charge that shuts you down when shooting two together?

[IraqiWalker]

Reno Blade, on 19 August 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

Fafnir with 2 Heavy Gauss requiring 6 sec cooldown and 2 sec Charge that shuts you down when shooting two together?

Why would it shut down the mech? That makes no sense.

[Reno Blade]

IraqiWalker, on 19 August 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

Why would it shut down the mech? That makes no sense.

space magic.

[Gamuray]

So, how about this, neither. Here's my idea, which simplifies the game instead of making it more complicated.

Remove the nerfs from other weapon systems to make them more viable. Then, this specific combo wouldn't b a problem, because the other weapons, which have already been heavily nerfed, will now be UP to the level as this combination. This then makes the ppc/guass combo on a level playing field with the other weapons, accomplishing the same goal as nerfing them, without adding complicated systems.

Of course, if the heat cap had been kept at the battletech 30, ghost heat and many other nerfs for alpha's wouldn't be necessary in the first place, because you'd overheat. To compensate for the low cap, double heat sinks could then be DOUBLE HEAT SINKS, not 1.4 heat sinks. Causing chain firing to be the go to tactic, but without implementing any non-explainable counters to high heat alpha's. Which would solve *most* of the things that have had to be nerfed. (ac20's, ppc boats, etc.)

[IraqiWalker]

Gamuray, on 20 August 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

DOUBLE HEAT SINKS, not 1.4 heat sinks. Causing chain firing to be the go to tactic, but without implementing any non-explainable counters to high heat alpha's. Which would solve *most* of the things that have had to be nerfed. (ac20's, ppc boats, etc.)

If you do the math on it. Our mechs with Elites, actually have DHS that do 2.3 heat per second, instead of 2.0, coupled with the increased heat threshold, our DHS are FAR better than TT DHS. Until you mount more than 18 DHS in your mech. 90% of all builds don't have more than 18 DHS in them.