1263 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Hellcat420, on 30 July 2014 - 04:25 PM, said:

that is the whole point of field testing in a combat zone.

Field Testing Performance <> Massed Combat Deployment Performance

I'm sure you have heard of something called the M-16.

But we're now getting off topic ...

Edited by Mystere, 30 July 2014 - 04:33 PM.

[GreyGriffin]

Livewyr, on 30 July 2014 - 03:30 PM, said:

If moving causes accuracy loss, and sitting still maintains perfect or near perfect accuracy, would that not promote camping? (Being entrenched means you can shoot them accurately while they move to you.)

It does not support aggressive action.

First of all, current mechanics promote camping, but for the opposite reason. Rather than taking up a defensible position, 'mechs are afraid to advance across even modestly open terrain, because a meta alpha hitting them in a single component is basically game over for anything below 65 tons, and that shot is possible from nearly a kilometer away.

Second, a dynamic cone of fire would actually bring a cost to sniping tactics, requiring the 'mech to remain stationary or at low throttle to have near pinpoint convergence. Hill humpers and corner peekers would have to spend valuable seconds exposed to pull off that clinch shot, allowing enemies on the advance to effect (less accurate) return fire. Or they could sacrifice accuracy for minimum exposure time via jump sniping or immediately throttling reverse.

Making these decisions (stay stationary or run? Break cover to move closer or stay?) should be much more meaningful than they are now. At the moment there are a fixed set of optimal options (mount PPC/gauss, stay well away, hill/corner hump), and the ability for 'mechs to get picked apart component by component at extreme range is the culprit.

Now... the second half of the equation of long-ranged combat is a full-on revamp of information warfare, sensors, and scouting, but that's another pretty big bogeyman.

[Hellcat420]

Mystere, on 30 July 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

Field Testing Performance <> Massed Combat Deployment Performance

I'm sure you have heard of something called the M-16.

But we're now getting off topic ...

murica doesnt mass deploy advanced tech(especially when it comes to weapons), because we dont want other people getting their hands on it. we could have laser rifles, and all kinds of other crazy ****, but there is more downside than upside to using stuff like that when you dont need it and nobody else is fielding that kind of tech.

Edited by Hellcat420, 30 July 2014 - 04:47 PM.

[LyskTrevise]

Asmudius Heng, on 29 July 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

Overly complex system just like ghost heat.

I would be better if you had two systems in the game.

HEAT: This as it is limits high alpha high heat builds, but mostly also tends to limit DPS via heat as heat goes up for nearly every weapon and takes a long time to cool down. This works ok, but many would simply prefer a lower heat cap and higher dissipation. This was not done it seems due to heat neutral builds and 3 second jenners or something.

So instead, leave heat as it is but to encourage a mix of weapons ad stop the high pinpoint alpahs of large weapons or many smaller weapons bolted together you get RID of Ghost heat and other mechanics and add one new one.

ENERGY: Have a green or blue bar like heat that you draw into when firing. Energy is replenished VERY quickly, but every weapon now has an energy rating. Now when you fire a group of weapons you take energy to fire them, too much energy and your weapons do no fire until energy is replenished which happens within a second or so.
PPCs and Gauss rifles would be energy heavy and so would be hard to fire together, as would stacked energy weapons. ACs might have a lower draw because they rely of propellants not reactor energy.

This would function mu like ghost heat but it would simply stop people from firing too many weapons at the same time rather than punish them without much warning. It becomes visible an players can SEE how it effects the game when building a mech.

So now you have 2 systems for 2 different purposes.

HEAT - To limit DPS by heat buildup
ENERGY - To limit high alphas

Together a pilot must manage these systems and find a middle ground or be willing to ride one or the other or both if they can handle it.

Now we have an interesting mechanic when building a mech, and when on the battlefield that eliminates the need for ghost heat.

You can add modules and quirks to modify energy now should it remain balanced too.

Quoting for emphasis.

[Livewyr]

S3dition, on 30 July 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

Discussion end.

Just as well, you apparently cannot tell the difference between MWO and the other FPS games.

[NARCoMAN]

A Battletech Game.





























































Be not this.

[Sandpit]

*sigh*

Ever hear the saying "Never use a five dollar word when a nickel will suffice?"

That's exactly what's going on here. First, with PGI's lack of communication to the community it's next to impossible to give feedback on this kind of thing. It's completely out of context.

Let me explain:
IS ACs are single shot one bullet pinpoint weapons. They've been argued, debated, discussed, and otherwise run into the ground since CB
Clan ACs are the burts fire mechanic that many suggested for IS. Now that the clans have arrived it makes much more sense to many on why IS ACs are one shot to balance against the Clan burst fire.
Know what would have happened had PGI let the community in on this vital piece of info instead of "Teehee, we're not going to give you information that you need to make an informed choice, we're going to be cool ninjas instead"?
You would have cut down on a LOT of the frustration and irritation in your community.

Why does Paul insist on doing everything in the most complicated and convoluted manner possible?

3PV = a complicated system that had to be programmed and integrated against the VAST majority of wishes from customers when all that really needed to be done was PGI stop being lazy and make a tutorial that explained a mech is a tank on legs and the torso is a turret.

Ghost heat = a complicated system that the majority do not like (hell I don't think ANYONE actually "likes" ghost heat, just some of us have adapted better than others) when all you had to do was implement degradation to performance based on the heat scale. High heat = loss of hud, movement speed, ammo explosions, etc. which are already represented in the game.

3/3/3/3 = a massive restructuring of the MM system that still did not increase mech variety when all that really needed to be done was use modules, skills, and the new quirk system to create an environment where players WANT to take underrepresented mechs.

SO now, instead of MANY ideas suggested over the years, we're talking yet again about nerfing a weapon system, creating a complicated mechanic that creates an even steeper learning curve for new(er) players instead of doing something like:
Stop instant convergence on all weapons fired at the same time in an alpha
Implement degrading performance for mechs running hot

Niko
Paul
Russ
Bryan
ANYONE at PGI

please look through this thread. How many people do you see saying "great idea!". Even some of the whitest of knights are admitting this isn't the best way to balance this. Please reconsider this. You're not doing anything but implementing a complicated system that hurts new players, pisses off old players, and doesn't solve the issue.

Ok, now the PPC won't synergize well with the Gauss. What about
AC5
AC10
AC20
Lasers
AC2

do you see how this suggestion does not solve the issue?

Until they acknowledge this, this particular issue will never get "fixed".


There are dozens of community suggestions on how to fix this problem without complicated mechanics, that won't piss off your community, that don't make the learning curve even more difficult to master. Listen to them! Stop being so dam subborn and deadset on being as overly complicated as possible. You can have depth without complicated.

Want to really solve the whole "PPD, FLD, high alpha problem"? If that's truly what Paul and PGI want then there are ways to do it, but his ideas are not it.

Use the heat scale for something other than "you're too hot, shutdown for 5 seconds"
50% = slower movement
60% = slower convergence on crosshairs as electronics get too hot
70% = additional movement penalty
80% = hud and targeting become unreliable as temperatures continue to climb
90% = hud barely visible, ammo cook off chances, movement almost zero
100% = shut down with ammo still continuing to take a chance at cooking off

THEN
Stop instant convergence on alpha strikes. If you fire more than one ballistic and/or PPC, you lose convergence from the gyro getting overloaded. You won't miss by much, but you do run the risk of missing one small section of the enemy meaning you have a higher chance of spreading damage. The higher the alpha (meaning the more weapons used or big bore weapons) the bigger the convergence loss.

Now if anyone can explain to me how Paul's ideas are "better" and easier to understand and use than what I just suggested then I'm all ears.

[On1m]

I'm in favor of the charge mechanics. Brings the Gauss and PPC more inline with the lore and canon.

[Gas Guzzler]

On1m, on 30 July 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

I'm in favor of the charge mechanics. Brings the Gauss and PPC more inline with the lore and canon.

When were PPCs and Gauss Rifles charged up in lore/canon

[TygerLily]

I vote option 2: ppc projectile speed. I base this on the mechanics: K.I.S.S. and since it seems to lower the effective range I'm all for it. Superior marksmanship is rewarded (skill based!).

[Dark Horse X]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 July 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

When were PPCs and Gauss Rifles charged up in lore/canon

Exactly! Let's get all this "canon" garbage off the table....."canon" this, "canon" that. Face it, when applying damage in TT from an AC, ALL DAMAGE FROM THAT AC WAS RESOLVED INTO ONE LOCATION.

That's right, I don't care about your "burst" fire Sarna arguments, it means nothing. Damage resolution affected one location.....AC's didn't spread their damage, didn't splash their damage, weren't MG's on steroids or whatever variant of whine you prefer.

Every weapon had it's advantages and disadvantages. You played accordingly and took the good with the bad.......instead, the "nerfers" here want everything to be to their skill level - abysmal. You're not good with a weapon? Practice! Oh, that's right, the "entitled" generation can't deal with actually having to work at something to be good. God forbid their "Nintendo Thumb Fu" isn't up to snuff.

You all are going to "canon" this entire game down to where every mech only has small lasers, which will take a charge time depending on how many you have - correlated to how many your target has, scaled to whether you used a jump jet to change direction while an Arty painted everyones a$$ pink.

Give it a break. You suck, we know you suck. Learn to play or move along.

[Maxx Blue]

I don't think either idea is a good way to go, but of those two, the PPC Speed nerf seems better.

What I would really like is dispersion on AC's and PPC's, or 'cone-of-fire' as some folks like calling it. You can keep pinpoint instant convergence on lasers, but put a small amount of dispersion into the projectile weapons. There is already random spread in SRM/LRM patterns and LBX Autocannon pellets so it's not like the idea is foreign to the game. Just add a small amount of dispersion to AC's and PPC's to see how it works out. Whatever you do, don't go through with the crazy 'fire one of these, but not two of those, but only for a half second after one of any number of other things' stuff that was proposed as the first option.

[defcon won]

Here is what I'd propose, to simplify the situation and to stop overcomplicating it:

1-remove the charge up from the gauss. The gauss is practically made of glass, the gun blows up, it relies on ammo (therefore limited in potential damage it can do), it's heavy and takes up a lot of slots. Even with the low heat, these are under control on their own by design and nature (IMO). Even if someone can fit 3, who cares? These days that just isn't the killer it used to be, and that will be a very fragile mech.

2-put the charge up time on the PPC's instead

3-for each PPC being charged, add to the time it takes to charge them. .75/sec for one, +.5/sec for each additional ppc.

4-ditch ghost heat, it's an outdated tool now. If anything, the IS mechs need to be rid of it to keep up with the clan mechs. Clan mechs are hindered by beam duration time and the way the AC's fire, that's enough for balance. The ghost heat doesn't really change the playing field since everyone suffers from it, it's just an illusion of balance.

5-SLOW DOWN pinpoint damage by adding to the time it takes the torso to converge with the arms. As has been stated, that 1 trigger pull, quick aim, fast shot with pinpoint damage (unlike lasers, missiles and clan ac's) is the root of the problem.


Wouldn't that be much easier and easier for new players to grasp? The learning curve on this game is steep enough for new players as it is, having to learn to build and where to shoot each mech to do real damage etc. Having to learn complex artificial controls is just going to run off a lot of new players.

Edited by defcon won, 30 July 2014 - 06:38 PM.

[Daehoth]

OH MY GAWD.....stop tinkering around with mechs already....they're fine the way they are, mech and weapons aren't really the pressing issue at this point. Nerf LRMs...now nerf Gauss/PPC combo...what's next? nerf small lasers, nerf mediums, nerf large lasers...nerf pulse lasers...nerf all the ballistic weapons....heck....nerf machine guns while you're at it....all in the bloody name of balancing....it's NEVER EVER GOING TO END.....

I say if a pilot has the damn skill to use both PPCs and Gauss together....good on him! If a pilot doesn't have the competency to just yet....practice a little longer and you'll get there buddy. Let pilots develop, learn and grow on their own PGI!!!

Stop pasting quick fix band aid-s all over the damn place!

All this time spent 'balancing' mechs have overshadowed one glaringly important thing. This game has not gone anywhere really in the last few years. PGI, just how long are you going to drag out balancing and not realizing the potential of this game? Or are you just content with 12 v 12 matches till the end of time? Because the player base, YOUR CUSTOMERS are not going to stand for it forever. We want the community warfare promised EONS ago. It feels like a millenia already since we last DARED dream of it.

The development and progress of this game is FAR too slow. In today's day and age, really?? Mechs and weapons are acceptable the way they currently are. Address the pressing issue and develop and expand on CONTENT (community warfare, because that's the real challenge and that's where the REAL player demand is). Stop wasting your time on trivial and quite frankly tolerable 'problems'. We are NEVER going to get to the finishing point or anywhere close to it if we keep lingering and tinkering at check point 2!!!!

Hear this once and for all.....players' patience is finite.....you are currently testing them to our limits....we love the lore and concept of Mechwarrior but we will not wait indefinitely for you to get your act together.....we have options out there and we won't support a ship that cannot get its direction or vision on track.... PERIOD.

Edited by Daehoth, 30 July 2014 - 07:32 PM.

[Skull Leader2]

Jesus Christ. I am so tired of the weapon changes. This game was in beta for so long and I feel like this is just an extended beta. How about we just make all mechs carry their stock build or get rid of PPC and Gauss rifles and any other weapon that gets used too often. Seriously. Or better yet, lets just make all mechs carry the same loadout. What is the point of customizing if the developer just changes everything because someone stumbled upon a powerful combination. There are already so many trade offs when using these big weapon, why add more.

[Daehoth]

Skull Leader2, on 30 July 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

Jesus Christ. I am so tired of the weapon changes. This game was in beta for so long and I feel like this is just an extended beta. How about we just make all mechs carry their stock build or get rid of PPC and Gauss rifles and any other weapon that gets used too often. Seriously. Or better yet, lets just make all mechs carry the same loadout. What is the point of customizing if the developer just changes everything because someone stumbled upon a powerful combination. There are already so many trade offs when using these big weapon, why add more.

You took the words right outta my mouth! I'm on the verge of just quitting this game and I pretty much only play this ONE game these days and have been for the past 2 years. It's sad when the realisation becomes clearer and clearer that the game developer has absolutely no real vision for this great game.

[Calon]

You're freaking killing me.

[Vanguard319]

Aresye, on 29 July 2014 - 11:11 PM, said:

Agreed

I think out of all the ideas, the "reticule bloom," or speed-based aiming penalties is the stupidest proposal. Yeah, let's make the entire skill of being able to shoot accurately while moving pointless.

Just another suggestion that ends up lowering the skill cap. No wonder so many people favor this idea. Punish the good pilots while benefiting the bad ones. Flawless!

And why are people even bringing dice into this? There's no need for dice here. We aren't playing with imaginary pilots and randomly calculating their ability to miss. We're our own dice rollers. I miss, the pros miss, everybody misses. Some of us miss less often than others, but the entire, "aiming," thing does not need to be simulated by RNG mechanics because we (as live human players) are perfectly fine of rolling the dice ourselves.

Someone else who clearly doesn't know what real skill is. The fact remains that firing with both accuracy and precision while jumping or running should be difficult. Unfortunately, poptarting is stupidly easy due to the fact that there are no factors that determine your accuracy other than the quality and precision of your gaming peripheral. Try dueling an opponent with a gaming mouse while restricting yourself to only keyboard controls and a touchpad. Then you can preach about skill.

[Sandpit]

Daehoth, on 30 July 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

You took the words right outta my mouth! I'm on the verge of just quitting this game and I pretty much only play this ONE game these days and have been for the past 2 years. It's sad when the realisation becomes clearer and clearer that the game developer has absolutely no real vision for this great game.

Skull Leader2, on 30 July 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

Jesus Christ. I am so tired of the weapon changes. This game was in beta for so long and I feel like this is just an extended beta. How about we just make all mechs carry their stock build or get rid of PPC and Gauss rifles and any other weapon that gets used too often. Seriously. Or better yet, lets just make all mechs carry the same loadout. What is the point of customizing if the developer just changes everything because someone stumbled upon a powerful combination. There are already so many trade offs when using these big weapon, why add more.

Daehoth, on 30 July 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

Hear this once and for all.....players' patience is finite.....you are currently testing them to our limits....we love the lore and concept of Mechwarrior but we will not wait indefinitely for you to get your act together.....we have options out there and we won't support a ship that cannot get its direction or vision on track.... PERIOD.

Sandpit, on 30 July 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

*sigh*

This is just on this page alone. Please Paul, for once, admit maybe your idea wasn't the best. Please listen to the community. You gave two options. Nobody (that's I've seen) has said "that's a great idea!". They've said "I'd pick this one over that one" or posted several ideas and suggestions on how to attack this issue. I'm begging you, please listen this time. Contrary to popular opinion, most (not all but most) with complaints regarding this game are complaining because they want this game to succeed because they want to continue playing it.

Even some of PGI's staunchest supporters are starting to waiver. Continuing to make adjustments and changes like this aren't going to cut it.
This isn't "i want it my way"
This isn't "PGI suxxorz"
This isn't negative feedback, this is a customer asking you to please reconsider your stance on this. If you don't like my ideas, read some of the others. We all understand the unique dynamics involved in developing and balancing a continually moving target in a game like this.
Online
PvP
It's rough. Yes, you have over a decade in the game field. Well I have over a decade in my profession as well. I'm not arrogant enough to pass on advice and ideas from people not as experienced as I am though. I know you guys get the feedback. I know you hear the thoughts in this thread. Please, pay attention this time...

[WarHippy]

I find no gameplay value in any of the changes he listed. They all sound terrible in particular the speed reduction, and the one second lock out after firing 2 gauss rifles. I don't even use that build, nor do I think it is in anyway overpowered. All I can do is shake my head in disgust.