28 replies to this topic

[CeeKay Boques]

In regards to nerfing the DDC Module slots:

Quote

In no way, however, is it "useless" as a result of this move to further bring it in line with other Mechs.

This is just an overall, reaching design question. Is it PGI's idea to make all the mechs and their variants "just as useful, if you really think about it"? Just curious. I've always felt that some 'mechs were just better, some variants just better, are you concerned at all about homogenizing the mechs so that they are all just skins? You've done well in allowing only some Mechs to have ECM, only SOME have JJ, but do you want it to be "Some Mechs can be special electronics platforms, so now no mechs can be special electronic platforms"?

Can you elaborate on "bringing mechs inline?" I think you should work hard to differentiate, especially as the quantities increase...

I mean the Locust exists, it does one thing really well, fast. Other than that its a coffin. Does it need to be "brought in line with other mechs"?

[Jin Ma]

not like it matters this module system is going to get scrapped anyway. Or modules themselves have to be completely redone. something has got to give

[WarHippy]

Jin Ma, on 29 July 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

not like it matters this module system is going to get scrapped anyway. Or modules themselves have to be completely redone. something has got to give

I don't see why. Care to explain?

[Ph30nix]

Technoviking, on 29 July 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

I mean the Locust exists, it does one thing really well, fast. Other than that its a coffin. Does it need to be "brought in line with other mechs"?

i have to point out here that the commandos can get a higher top speed and still have better heat and firepower.....

[Scratx]

If a variant of a mech is used 95% of the time while all the other variants together make up the other 5%, it's not in line with the other variants.

The same logic applies across the board on a per chassis basis. If certain chassis are much more common than others, odds are they're not in line with the others.

The ideal situation is that all chassis and all variants are equally attractive. This will never happen but it should still be aimed for in general.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Technoviking, on 29 July 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

In regards to nerfing the DDC Module slots:


This is just an overall, reaching design question. Is it PGI's idea to make all the mechs and their variants "just as useful, if you really think about it"? Just curious. I've always felt that some 'mechs were just better, some variants just better, are you concerned at all about homogenizing the mechs so that they are all just skins? You've done well in allowing only some Mechs to have ECM, only SOME have JJ, but do you want it to be "Some Mechs can be special electronics platforms, so now no mechs can be special electronic platforms"?

Can you elaborate on "bringing mechs inline?" I think you should work hard to differentiate, especially as the quantities increase...

I mean the Locust exists, it does one thing really well, fast. Other than that its a coffin. Does it need to be "brought in line with other mechs"?

It sounds like they believe the DDC was above other assaults because of its modules ( so they feel with this change, they have brought it in-line with other assaults.....derp)

[Ph30nix]

Jin Ma, on 29 July 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

not like it matters this module system is going to get scrapped anyway. Or modules themselves have to be completely redone. something has got to give

they already stated in other posts that they plan to do a major overhaul of the weapon modules and will possibly revisit some of the mech modules as well.

[Jin Ma]

Scratx, on 29 July 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

If a variant of a mech is used 95% of the time while all the other variants together make up the other 5%, it's not in line with the other variants.

Agreed. yet they still havent listend to us about ECM.

Edited by Jin Ma, 29 July 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[Sandslice]

Technoviking, on 29 July 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

In regards to nerfing the DDC Module slots:


This is just an overall, reaching design question. Is it PGI's idea to make all the mechs and their variants "just as useful, if you really think about it"? Just curious. I've always felt that some 'mechs were just better, some variants just better, are you concerned at all about homogenizing the mechs so that they are all just skins? You've done well in allowing only some Mechs to have ECM, only SOME have JJ, but do you want it to be "Some Mechs can be special electronics platforms, so now no mechs can be special electronic platforms"?

Can you elaborate on "bringing mechs inline?" I think you should work hard to differentiate, especially as the quantities increase...

I mean the Locust exists, it does one thing really well, fast. Other than that its a coffin. Does it need to be "brought in line with other mechs"?

With respect to ECM vs. non-ECM variants of the same chassis: before this change, ECM variants ALSO had more module slots than other chassis - leaving no reason for a min/maxer to play the non-ECM variants other than to basic them so that you can elite the ECM.

With this change, ECM now has an opportunity cost: some other variants now have an extra module, so you have to choose between ECM and that now.

[Alistair Winter]

Technoviking, on 29 July 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

I mean the Locust exists, it does one thing really well, fast. Other than that its a coffin. Does it need to be "brought in line with other mechs"?

PGI's attitude seems to be that there are two kinds of mechs:

1) Popular mechs
2) Unpopular mechs.

The popular mechs need to be brought in line, so that not too many of them are OP. If some of them are OP, it should preferably be assault mechs, hero mechs or, previously, Phoenix mechs.

The unpopular mechs are fine. Throw them a bone every year or two. Don't really worry about them, because most fans don't care about them anyway.

[Vodrin Thales]

Sandslice, on 29 July 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

With respect to ECM vs. non-ECM variants of the same chassis: before this change, ECM variants ALSO had more module slots than other chassis - leaving no reason for a min/maxer to play the non-ECM variants other than to basic them so that you can elite the ECM.

With this change, ECM now has an opportunity cost: some other variants now have an extra module, so you have to choose between ECM and that now.

And yet ECM is still much more powerful than any module or set of modules.

[Vassago Rain]

Scratx, on 29 July 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

If a variant of a mech is used 95% of the time while all the other variants together make up the other 5%, it's not in line with the other variants.

The same logic applies across the board on a per chassis basis. If certain chassis are much more common than others, odds are they're not in line with the others.

The ideal situation is that all chassis and all variants are equally attractive. This will never happen but it should still be aimed for in general.

Because it has the magical ability to take ECM. The mech itself is still awful and obsolete.

[Angel of Annihilation]

I think you missed the point. He was saying that removing a few modules doesn't break the D-DC and I agree. I don't even run modules on my D-DC usually.

[CeeKay Boques]

Scratx, on 29 July 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

The ideal situation is that all chassis and all variants are equally attractive. This will never happen but it should still be aimed for in general.

Uh... why?

[stjobe]

Scratx, on 29 July 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

If a variant of a mech is used 95% of the time while all the other variants together make up the other 5%, it's not in line with the other variants.

The same logic applies across the board on a per chassis basis. If certain chassis are much more common than others, odds are they're not in line with the others.

The ideal situation is that all chassis and all variants are equally attractive. This will never happen but it should still be aimed for in general.

This has never been a design factor for PGI.

Exhibit A, the Spiders. Out of the box we had:
One attractive (5D, ECM and 3 useful energy slots)
One sub-par (5K, 1 useful energy slot, 4 MG slots)
One useless (5V, 1 useful energy slot, one useless)

What have they done to balance them? The 5K and 5V have two 'mech slots, the 5D only one.

Yeah, that balances it RIGHT out :/

[Ultimax]

Scratx, on 29 July 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

If a variant of a mech is used 95% of the time while all the other variants together make up the other 5%, it's not in line with the other variants.

The same logic applies across the board on a per chassis basis. If certain chassis are much more common than others, odds are they're not in line with the others.

The ideal situation is that all chassis and all variants are equally attractive. This will never happen but it should still be aimed for in general.

It's not so clear cut IMO.

You have people who want to play the ECM toting support 100 Ton Atlas, and then when they want to play a firepower heavy assault their best option is to look outside the Atlas family at Banshees, Stalkers and to an extent even Highlanders & Battle Masters.


If PGI strips ECM from the DDC we won't suddenly see many more other Atlas on the field because they are awesome - we are likely to see the same amount we see now but see more of the other Assaults.



I'm not saying that ECM isn't strong and the reason we see DDCs all the time. It is.

That's kind of the point though, outside of ECM the DDC is not as good as the other Atlas variants, and those aren't really as good as most other Assaults in general.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 29 July 2014 - 01:10 PM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Technoviking, on 29 July 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

Can you elaborate on "bringing mechs inline?" I think you should work hard to differentiate, especially as the quantities increase...

They are differentiating...by making the other variants have more module slots to give them some kind of pro over the all-powerful D-DC. Whereas before, the D-DC had lots of benefits over the other Atlases, now it has a con.

[Puresin]

in response to the statement about the mechs currently used 95% of the time.......ummmm it sure as **** ain'ty the atlas and the only reason atlas's are used so much is cause they are the only ones with enough armour to stand in front of "a" clan mech for more than a nano second. and I call bullshit on Niko. I want to see some raw data on the numbers of mechs being used and I want to be the one to pull the adat out of their system cause I don't trust them.

But i bet if you did some "Real" number crunching I'd say the timber wolf is the "95%" mech right now and i didn't see a nerf bat in this patch for them........

Edited by Puresin, 29 July 2014 - 01:14 PM.

[Sephlock]

Jin Ma, on 29 July 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

not like it matters this module system is going to get scrapped anyway. Or modules themselves have to be completely redone. something has got to give

You must be new here.

Fails are like Constructicons. They don't cancel each other out, or override one another:

[Sandslice]

Vodrin Thales, on 29 July 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

And yet ECM is still much more powerful than any module or set of modules.

Be that as it may, why should ECM carriers also get even more advantages over the other variants? That's at the heart of the matter.

Puresin, on 29 July 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

inresponse to the statement about the mechs currently used 95% of the time.......ummmm it sure as **** ain'ty the atlas and the only reason atlas's are used so much is cause they are the only ones with enough armour to stand in front of "a" clan mech for more than a nano second. and I call bullshit on Niko. I want to see some raw data on the numbers of mechs being used and I want to be the one to pull the adat out of their system cause i don't trust them.

But i bet if you did some "Real" number crunching I'd say the timber wolf is the "95%" mech right now and i didn't see a nerf bat in this patch for them........

Mad Cats, Ryokens, DDC, and AWS-8R (the missile boat Awesome) were all limited to 1 weapon slot and 1 'Mech slot. While it's not a direct nerf, do note that that Thors, Blackhawks, other Atlai, and other Awesomes did not suffer this (and indeed, the AWS-8Q and Boars Head were given third weapon slots, for what that's worth.)