90 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Jazzbandit1313, on 29 July 2014 - 07:16 PM, said:

Grey area: (Not Pros or Cons, but worthy notes)
-Charge mechanic (I find it useful, IMO)
-Inability to fire more than 2 rifles at once
-Same recycle time as its oafish brother, the AC/20

I should note that if the Gauss Rifle still had the same recycle time as the AC/20, it'd be even more terrifying on the field.

It's 4 seconds plus 0.75 seconds, assuming it fired at all. The charging time should be considered.

Lets follow an AC/20.
0 seconds (firing). 1 AC/20.
1 second. Reloading.
2 seconds. Reloading.
3 seconds. Reloading. Reloaded.
4 seconds, Firing.

Lets follow a Gauss Rifle.
0 seconds, start to fire.
0.75 seconds, fired. Reloading begins.
1 second. Reloading.
2 seconds, reloading.
3 seconds, reloading.
4 seconds. Reloading.
4.75 seconds, (exactly 4 seconds after having fired) reloading finished. Starting to fire.
5.50 seconds, fired!

This is assuming you do not have any firing failures related to under or over-charging the weapon.

Just thought I'd squeeze this bit of information in.

AC/20 in 8 seconds produces 60 damage.
Gauss Rifle in 10.25 seconds produces 45 damage.

Much like the beam time for a medium laser needs to be considered.
In 9 seconds (after the completion of the third beam), it's produced 15 damage. Sure, it recharges in 3 seconds but only after the beam has finished firing.

Edited by Koniving, 30 July 2014 - 03:11 PM.

[Jazzbandit1313]

Koniving, on 30 July 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

I should note that if the Gauss Rifle still had the same recycle time as the AC/20, it'd be even more terrifying on the field.

It's 4 seconds plus 0.75 seconds, assuming it fired at all. The charging time should be considered.

Lets follow an AC/20.
0 seconds (firing). 1 AC/20.
1 second. Reloading.
2 seconds. Reloading.
3 seconds. Reloading. Reloaded.
4 seconds, Firing.

Lets follow a Gauss Rifle.
0 seconds, start to fire.
0.75 seconds, fired. Reloading begins.
1 second. Reloading.
2 seconds, reloading.
3 seconds, reloading.
4 seconds. Reloading.
4.75 seconds, (exactly 4 seconds after having fired) reloading finished. Starting to fire.
5.50 seconds, fired!

This is assuming you do not have any firing failures related to under or over-charging the weapon.

Just thought I'd squeeze this bit of information in.

AC/20 in 8 seconds produces 60 damage.
Gauss Rifle in 10.25 seconds produces 45 damage.

Much like the beam time for a medium laser needs to be considered.
In 9 seconds (after the completion of the third beam), it's produced 15 damage. Sure, it recharges in 3 seconds but only after the beam has finished firing.

thanks for bringing this to the table. I did not think of this. I appreciate the added knowledge to this thread.

[Koniving]

You're welcome.
-------------

Personally I don't think that anything is wrong with the Gauss Rifle. Compared to the Clan ER PPC it takes 2.25 seconds longer to do the same job and has a lot more risks, regardless of whether Clan or IS versions.

Looking at it from every angle imaginable, I've come to see that all of the truly meta issues tie back to the PPCs and ER PPCs.
For the viewpoint of triple and quadruple Gauss Rifles...
There are 4 Dire Cow vids on youtube, all 4 are quad Gauss.


Triple gauss rifles when we could fire 3 at a time.


Lots of risks. Just loaded with them. Decent rewards, but you can replicate this with most loadouts.

It's when you start adding PPCs that problems are caused. Same with autocannons, by themselves autocannons are nasty but that's all they are. Add PPCs, however.... What kept PPCs in check in the past was low thresholds. The skill system expanded to 15% faster cooling and 20% more threshold. By themselves they are fine, though it demonstrates an issue with MWO's heat system. But when accompanied with other FLD weapons they become a problem.

[Jazzbandit1313]

I guess this thread is leading more towards pinpoint discussions then. I still think that the "glass cannon" the gauss rifle was meant to be has still not been fully achieved. Nerfs to pinpoint Gauss+whatever combos would be a godsend, most of us can agree.

[ApolloKaras]

Jazzbandit1313, on 29 July 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

even if you cant agree with me on that,you must at least be open to the fact that ppc+gauss pinpoint is ridiculous. If you dont even remotely think that, then there is no point in arguing as our viewpoints are completely opposite

Your issue here is the PPC, not the gauss rifle. You nullify your argument when you tell us what the Gauss rifle can be paired with, and that in turn makes it 'OP'. The gauss rifle is a skill weapon with the charge time there is nothing more than needs to be done with the GR.

EDIT: As stated by Koniving - the recycle time for this thing is crazy. What else could possibly be done to 'nerf' this weapon into the ground other than giving it a even LONGER recycle time...

Edited by Saxie, 30 July 2014 - 04:57 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Ive said it a million times before and ill say it again. The only thing the gauss rifle ever needed was a rate of fire reduction, and a particle effect as was seen in mechwarrior 4 gauss rifles, announcing the firing mechs location for anyone to see, and a CHANCE to explode on a crit...like 25% or so. The silly charge mechanic did nothing, and the 99% chance to explode with 5hp only really hurt mechs that cannot carry an ac20 or multiple ac5's and are forced to use this weapon due to crit space requirements.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Pjwned, on 30 July 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

While I agree that it's kind of crappy that the charge-up mechanic makes the gauss rifle hard to use in a build with a variety of weapons, it seems like the main issue is that you can't use it as a brawling weapon, which I would say is...working as intended? I'm not trying to be overly harsh but it shouldn't be used for brawling and if it's effective for that then there's probably something wrong with the weapon as far as balance considering what it is and what kind of ranges it can fire at.

I will note that part about hoping the shot doesn't discharge though, like I said I think the time to hold the shot is far too little and it needs to be bumped up to at least 2 seconds, preferably 2.5 seconds i.e doubled.

See to me, this is part of the problem and also part of what makes them so bad. I am not going to devote 15 tons on a Clan mech (Gauss + ammo) or 18 tons on a IS mech (Gauss + ammo) for a single weapon that only does 15 damage if that weapon is only good for sniping. Most of the combat in this game takes place at under 400m so crippling yourself at these ranges is inefficient for most mechs.

The balance you talk about honestly is in the weight of the weapon (No weapon weighs more and the only weapons that match in weight, do 25% more damage) combined with how fragile and explosive it is. It doesn't need more balancing than that.

The reason the Gauss Rifle works so well on the Dire Wolf is because it has a tremendous amount of firepower to rely on and can afford to reserve the Dual Gauss set up for times when it can be most effective. For example one of the builds I am probably going to use for my Dire Wolf when they finally roll out of C-bills is 2 x Gauss, 6 x C-ER ML and a UAC/10. Even without the Gauss rifles, the 6 C-ER ML and UAC/10 is more firepower than most heavy mechs can dish out. The Dual Gauss is just icing on the cake but changing out to Dual UAC/20s to make the weapons more generally useful would kill its heat efficiency.

So basically, the Gauss isn't really OPed anymore, not in the slightest, rather the Dire Wolf, which is why all of a sudden everyone is again complaining about Gauss Rifles, just offers a superior platform for them that didn't exist until now.

Of course as soon as the King Crab or perhaps Mauler makes it in, IS will have a similar platform and all will be right in the world again.

[Pjwned]

Viktor Drake, on 30 July 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

See to me, this is part of the problem and also part of what makes them so bad. I am not going to devote 15 tons on a Clan mech (Gauss + ammo) or 18 tons on a IS mech (Gauss + ammo) for a single weapon that only does 15 damage if that weapon is only good for sniping. Most of the combat in this game takes place at under 400m so crippling yourself at these ranges is inefficient for most mechs.

The balance you talk about honestly is in the weight of the weapon (No weapon weighs more and the only weapons that match in weight, do 25% more damage) combined with how fragile and explosive it is. It doesn't need more balancing than that.

The reason the Gauss Rifle works so well on the Dire Wolf is because it has a tremendous amount of firepower to rely on and can afford to reserve the Dual Gauss set up for times when it can be most effective. For example one of the builds I am probably going to use for my Dire Wolf when they finally roll out of C-bills is 2 x Gauss, 6 x C-ER ML and a UAC/10. Even without the Gauss rifles, the 6 C-ER ML and UAC/10 is more firepower than most heavy mechs can dish out. The Dual Gauss is just icing on the cake but changing out to Dual UAC/20s to make the weapons more generally useful would kill its heat efficiency.

I don't really see the problem with something that excels at sniping for very respectable damage but is less effective at closer ranges, and it's not like you can't use it to brawl because it does not (and should not) have a minimum range, but like you said it's rather hard to manage and I think it should stay that way, it doesn't need to be effective at every range.

To me the high tonnage & crit slots is not enough by itself to balance the long range pinpoint damage and the charge-up time makes it into more of a sniper weapon which seems like a good role to me, and if you don't want a sniper weapon then use an AC10 instead or something, maybe even use 1 AC10 and 1 AC20 to fit in more heatsinks on that dire wolf you were talking about.

[EAP10]

MeiSooHaityu, on 30 July 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

Also, I have used a Gauss up close, but only when I have to. Timing the charge mechanic while keeping a mech running around you on target is HARD unless that other mech is running straight at you. If that mech is running perpendicular to you, it is tricky IMO.

It's actually quite good at close range if you are fighting other assault mechs, especially in a Direwhale with a bunch of backup weapons. Harder to hit lights and mediums, but with a lot of practice you can learn to quick shot them. But for shooting assault mechs, just start walking towards them and keep firing, cause they are so slow you can usually keep them in your crosshairs.

IMO I really like gauss rifles and I would not like them to be changed at all.

[Gyrok]

Pjwned, on 30 July 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

You can't just use a macro to completely mitigate the charge-up time for every situation, and adding a minimum range would be stupid because the charge-up time already makes it weak if somebody is dancing around you in close range, not to mention it wouldn't make sense to have a minimum range on an inert metal ball being shot at high speed. The DPS is also already very low as it is, the only way to accomplish lowering it would be to increase its re-fire cooldown and the cooldown is already huge.

In summary I don't agree with any part of your post, it already hurts enough to have a gauss rifle in close range.

Who needs a macro?

Also, Dual Gauss is not anywhere in the same ballpark as OP. Gauss Jager anyone? Sure, it may be a nuisance, but I doubt anyone would call it OP.

As for PPCs, well...name a jump sniper build that does not have them...can you? No? Hmm...

Can you name a popular jump snipe build that does not have Gauss? Yes? Lots of them? Hmm...

I see a recurring trend here...it goes all the way back to stalkers mounting 4-6 of the same weapon and being the most feared thing on the battlefield. Anyone else see what I am getting at here?

Lengthen the cool down on ALL PPCs and get it over with. They have tap danced around the issue for 2+ years now, it is about time to call a spade what it is....a spade.

[Ngamok]

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