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Clan Vs Is Happening Again


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#441 Mcgral18

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:27 PM

View PostVassago Rain, on 01 August 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:


I don't feel a 14-18 million madcat is 'reasonably priced.'


XL375, 2x TT price for weapons...and they are all under 16 million.

DHS, XL engine, FF armour, with quite a few weapons.


Seeing as when you finish building IS mechs, they come to similar costs, I do find it reasonable.

My muromets has 8.5 mil in equipment, plus nearly 3 mil for a 70 ton chassis brings it to 12.5 mil.

75 ton chassis brings it up to 3.4 mil. Plus an XL375, which is another 6.5 million, so nearly 10 mil for just those two objects.

Then you add the weapons. Not terribly expensive, no. That spreadsheet has the breakdown of all the costs.

#442 Phaeric Cyrh

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:28 PM

View PostKubernetes, on 01 August 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

I only own one Clan mech, but they seem alright to me. Who said Clan mechs were supposed to be balanced with IS mechs? Again, when the Clan invaded, the IS reaction was not "These Clan mechs are different, but not really better." The Clan mechs are supposed to be better, a step-change qualitative improvement in weaponry and tech.

And ffs, PGI is going to release the Clan mechs for CBills in the next few months, so just hold out if you don't want to spend money. There's just an ungodly amount of whining for a game that is nominally free.


And again, if the clan mechs "should be better" who exactlty do you think is going to be left for them to fight when they come out for C-Bills? Why do you think IS pilots will keep piloting inferior tech?

#443 MischiefSC

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:30 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 01 August 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:


You stated UAC20, never which mech. I stated AC20, without a mech as well. Perhaps with a BJ, which doesn't have much armour, will indeed fall to the innaccuate firepower, but not the larger ones.

95 tons, by the way.


Split it however you want. I just crushed a Shawk and an Atlas, back to back with one just 2 matches ago. Doing exactly what I described. PPFLD does not equate to accurate - it just means that when you hit accurately, it's all in the same spot. If you miss, it's all in the wrong spot. It actually benefits Clanners, not IS mechs - IS mechs are more fragile. Clanners benefit MORE, not LESS, from spreading damage. They can lose a torso or arm.

Played another match while writing this post. Jag, then Warhawk, then Hunchback. UAC20, 4xCERMLs, TC4, 5 tons ammo, 2 extra DHS, 1 jj. The build really suffers on longer range maps though or ones with lots of cover - hence why overall I do better with 2xUAC5 or 2xLB5X and some CERMLs or CERLLs. 2xLB5X, 4xCERML and 1xCERLL is a good consistent delivery of pain for me.

The UAC20 though? Better than a straight up AC20. I'd take it every time. I just don't need to go with an AC20 on Clan builds, because I can change up my hardpoints for something better whenever I want.

#444 Vassago Rain

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:32 PM

View PostKubernetes, on 01 August 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

I only own one Clan mech, but they seem alright to me. Who said Clan mechs were supposed to be balanced with IS mechs? Again, when the Clan invaded, the IS reaction was not "These Clan mechs are different, but not really better." The Clan mechs are supposed to be better, a step-change qualitative improvement in weaponry and tech.

And ffs, PGI is going to release the Clan mechs for CBills in the next few months, so just hold out if you don't want to spend money. There's just an ungodly amount of whining for a game that is nominally free.


Yeah, I can't wait for clan on clan action, as everybody forgets there are IS mechs. It'll be great.

#445 RetroActive

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:32 PM

View PostVassago Rain, on 01 August 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:


But it is. It's just that gauss+ER PPC combo is far superior. So are braces of ER mediums.

Imagine that. Clan weapons are mostly bad because they have far, far superior options.


What Gauss + ERPPC combo can the MadCat do that an IS mech can't do?

You're right about ER mediums..they're great....there's one superior weapon.

#446 Vassago Rain

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:34 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 01 August 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:


XL375, 2x TT price for weapons...and they are all under 16 million.

DHS, XL engine, FF armour, with quite a few weapons.


Seeing as when you finish building IS mechs, they come to similar costs, I do find it reasonable.

My muromets has 8.5 mil in equipment, plus nearly 3 mil for a 70 ton chassis brings it to 12.5 mil.

75 ton chassis brings it up to 3.4 mil. Plus an XL375, which is another 6.5 million, so nearly 10 mil for just those two objects.

Then you add the weapons. Not terribly expensive, no. That spreadsheet has the breakdown of all the costs.


I don't have to buy 3x16 million dollars.
I only need that on the one variant I intend to keep.

Meanwhile, clans can't reuse engines, so it'll be a 45 million dollar chunk to get a mastered madcat.

#447 wanderer

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:34 PM

View PostKubernetes, on 01 August 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

Who said Clan mechs were supposed to be balanced with IS mechs?


The developers did. Funny how that works.

#448 Vassago Rain

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:35 PM

View PostRetroActive, on 01 August 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:


What Gauss + ERPPC combo can the MadCat do that an IS mech can't do?

You're right about ER mediums..they're great....there's one superior weapon.


The one that's lighter, takes up less crits, and fits on a mech that doesn't die to a side torso hit.

Also while having a 375 engine, while the IS equivalent can have a 340 max.

#449 Yokaiko

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:37 PM

View PostVassago Rain, on 01 August 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:


I don't have to buy 3x16 million dollars.
I only need that on the one variant I intend to keep.

Meanwhile, clans can't reuse engines, so it'll be a 45 million dollar chunk to get a mastered madcat.


So you are whining because you are space poor? Really? I have 84 mechs currently, ALL fully upgraded and all with engines.

I could buy all three T-wolves AND the extra omni's (you are going to love that at 376,000 a pop) and still have enough to spam UAVs, arties and strikes till the cows come home.

#450 MischiefSC

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:37 PM

View PostPhaeric Cyrh, on 01 August 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:


And again, if the clan mechs "should be better" who exactlty do you think is going to be left for them to fight when they come out for C-Bills? Why do you think IS pilots will keep piloting inferior tech?


If clan mechs are better and are currently only available for cash, that's by definition P2W. Saying 'it's only P2W for 5 months' doesn't change that.

It also means that in 5 months only newbies and a handful of holdouts will be in IS mechs - which is what I expect. In December you'll only see oldschool folks and trials in IS mechs.

#451 Yokaiko

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:39 PM

View PostVassago Rain, on 01 August 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:


The one that's lighter, takes up less crits, and fits on a mech that doesn't die to a side torso hit.

Also while having a 375 engine, while the IS equivalent can have a 340 max.



That is also ALL you are getting on a meta wolf, three tons of ammo, guass + 2 ER-PPCs 1 JJ and you are cutting armor to fit that.

Lighter gear and all.

#452 RetroActive

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:44 PM

View PostVassago Rain, on 01 August 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:


The one that's lighter, takes up less crits, and fits on a mech that doesn't die to a side torso hit.

Also while having a 375 engine, while the IS equivalent can have a 340 max.



The only thing it has is speed. I can build a std engine 3D w/ 2 ERPPC and 1 Gauss very easily. It weighs 5 tons less.

#453 MischiefSC

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:51 PM

View PostYokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:


So you are whining because you are space poor? Really? I have 84 mechs currently, ALL fully upgraded and all with engines.

I could buy all three T-wolves AND the extra omni's (you are going to love that at 376,000 a pop) and still have enough to spam UAVs, arties and strikes till the cows come home.


Huh. I get my bonuses at work in stock grants. Generally 1/2 vests in 1 year the other half a year after that. It's generally more in bonus every year than the median household income in the US. I make even more as a wage. I pay my crazy ex wife more in support than most people make as a job and can still afford to support my new and improved not-crazy wife at home in the manner to which she likes to be accustomed.

That means there is no income inequality in the world, nobody is hungry or homeless or starving and everyone who isn't making as much money as me is just inherently inferior, right?

Seriously. Think about what you're saying before you're saying it. You're not making an argument, you're making yourself look bad.

Clan mechs are, in general, better than their average equivalent by tonnage in IS mechs. Clan weapons are flat out across the board superior in every way than their IS equivalents. They are balanced in this, in a general sense, by tonnage and space limits in Clan mechs. Having a weapon that takes up 1 or 2 less slots and weighs 1 or 2 less tons is far less significant when I have less slots overall to work with and less weapon tonnage overall to work with.

Damage, heat, range benefits? That's more significant. My stats with CERLLs and CERMLs are significantly superior to my ML and ERLL stats for IS weapons. SRMs and LRMs though are pretty close. ACs are harder to read, though my CUAC5 is insanely better than my IS UAC5 for performance per shot. I've done more damage with my CUAC20 in 50 matches than I have with IS AC20 in 150 matches. While you can argue that more damage /= more kills I can say that almost universally more damage = higher probability of the target being killed by someone on your team at some point, thus contributing to a win.

All of which is, in the end, very subjective in terms of IS to Clan balance. The huge over-arching factor is that in general Clan mechs are more fun to pilot and DoT is a more enjoyable overall experience. Longer TTK while increasing DPS, resulting in lots of explosions, blowing **** up and ripping chunks off and making matches last longer and be more enjoyable.

Balance with IS mechs needs to be more than odds to get a kill - it needs to be about fun to play. IS mechs are in general not as fun to play. A few are - I love my banshee, love it to bits. When I'm in the mood to play lights my Spider is exactly *why* people hate Spiders and Spider pilots.

Clan mechs need to be the new baseline. All IS mechs need balanced to that baseline. The Timber Wolf at 75 tons should be the 'this is more or less how cool/fun a mech should be' benchmark. If it's not as fun as a TW, it needs fixed.

That should be the goal. If it's not, then we're doing the whole game wrong.

#454 Roland

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:55 PM

View PostYokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:



That is also ALL you are getting on a meta wolf, three tons of ammo, guass + 2 ER-PPCs 1 JJ and you are cutting armor to fit that.

Lighter gear and all.

Just so you know, you aren't optimizing the build. My mad cat runs 2.5 tons of ammo and three jump jets.

#455 Yokaiko

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:56 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 01 August 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:


Huh. I get my bonuses at work in stock grants. Generally 1/2 vests in 1 year the other half a year after that. It's generally more in bonus every year than the median household income in the US. I make even more as a wage. I pay my crazy ex wife more in support than most people make as a job and can still afford to support my new and improved not-crazy wife at home in the manner to which she likes to be accustomed.

That means there is no income inequality in the world, nobody is hungry or homeless or starving and everyone who isn't


Did you seriously just make a "save the children" post about a ******* video game? Did you see where I said SPACE poor.

View PostMischiefSC, on 01 August 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

making as much money as me is just inherently inferior, right?


For all the elitist rants Vassago goes on, your a damn right.

View PostMischiefSC, on 01 August 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

Seriously. Think about what you're saying before you're saying it. You're not making an argument, you're making yourself look bad.


At least I can read.

#456 Roland

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:56 PM

View PostRetroActive, on 01 August 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:



The only thing it has is speed. I can build a std engine 3D w/ 2 ERPPC and 1 Gauss very easily. It weighs 5 tons less.

The additional mobility and agility of the twolf is a massive advantage.

#457 Yokaiko

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:58 PM

View PostRoland, on 01 August 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

Just so you know, you aren't optimizing the build. My mad cat runs 2.5 tons of ammo and three jump jets.



That is optimized?

Those extra two are a waste to me,that is two tons of ammo and armor that I can actually use vice two more JJs that give me a 0.0001% (sarcastic) bonus to jump ability.

View PostRoland, on 01 August 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

The additional mobility and agility of the twolf is a massive advantage.



Debatable. I don't think PPC+ guass is even close to the best build for it. dual PPC and quad SRMs, NOW you are talking.

Edited by Yokaiko, 01 August 2014 - 12:58 PM.


#458 Roland

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 01:00 PM

View PostYokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:


Debatable. I don't think PPC+ guass is even close to the best build for it. dual PPC and quad SRMs, NOW you are talking.

No it's not really debatable.

#459 Mcgral18

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 01:04 PM

View PostRoland, on 01 August 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

No it's not really debatable.


Nothing ever is for you.

#460 Yokaiko

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 01:04 PM

View PostRoland, on 01 August 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

No it's not really debatable.


http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Groupthink





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