576 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

Yokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

So you are whining because you are space poor? Really? I have 84 mechs currently, ALL fully upgraded and all with engines.

I could buy all three T-wolves AND the extra omni's (you are going to love that at 376,000 a pop) and still have enough to spam UAVs, arties and strikes till the cows come home.

Oh man, you outspent me. Truly, you are the king of kings, and there's no reason whatsoever we should make gundams more accessible to new players who haven't been playing MWO for two years and are dual founders.

[RetroActive]

Roland, on 01 August 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

The additional mobility and agility of the twolf is a massive advantage.

Yes. The MadCat can go faster with that loadout. Advantage MadCat.

If the MadCat's weapon torso is destroyed, it is helpless, and it is beyond easy to hit a MadCat's side torso. 3D can shield torsos much more easily. Advantage 3D.

See how things balance out?

[Yokaiko]

Vassago Rain, on 01 August 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Oh man, you outspent me. Truly, you are the king of kings, and there's no reason whatsoever we should make gundams more accessible to new players who haven't been playing MWO for two years and are dual founders.

Nice dodge.

You said YOU couldn't afford three 14-18mil mechs. That is a personal problem.

Vassago Rain, on 01 August 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

I don't have to buy 3x16 million dollars.
I only need that on the one variant I intend to keep.

Meanwhile, clans can't reuse engines, so it'll be a 45 million dollar chunk to get a mastered madcat.

Remember this.

I can understand only keeping one, but damn dude.

So while you are at it, you don't need to blow 10 mil in upgrades for each variant while masteringthe mech, it has EVERYTHING but artemis (and who needs artemis, PPC and gauss is un debatable).

Edited by Yokaiko, 01 August 2014 - 01:11 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Yokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

Did you seriously just make a "save the children" post about a ******* video game? Did you see where I said SPACE poor.



For all the elitist rants Vassago goes on, your a damn right.



At least I can read.

So I'm going to re-post your post that I was responding to.

Yokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

So you are whining because you are space poor? Really? I have 84 mechs currently, ALL fully upgraded and all with engines.

I could buy all three T-wolves AND the extra omni's (you are going to love that at 376,000 a pop) and still have enough to spam UAVs, arties and strikes till the cows come home.

The point being that having money in game in no way relates to having higher costs be justifiable. Economics is economics. You want to equate the fact that you have in game money with why it's fine to over price stuff in game you're making the exact same argument.

So, yeah. I can read just fine. That you don't understand exactly what you wrote, a short distance up the exact same page, that's why I said you're just looking foolish.

Which you then doubled down on. Due props on that one. You should try to work in 'Imma get mine' and maybe a good 'new players don't matter' in the next one. You're clearly on a roll.

So, to clarify -

You are wrong. Pretty clearly. Clan gear is over-priced compared to IS gear. If Clan Gear is inherently superior that's understandable - of course it it is, the game is P2W for the next 4 or 5 months and everything the devs said about 'IS and Clans are balanced' is a lie. Also the games future for CW is pretty much boned because the only IS mechs will be a handful of old school holdouts and newbies in trial mechs. Tough to actually have sides that way, right?

OR -

Vassago is totally right and you're a jackass. Clan gear is over priced, there's some balancing left to do and we're not going to be able to even get a reasonable start on that until February, when all the clan stuff is out and integrated into general population.

This isn't hard logic. It's not even big mathz.

Now, are Clan mechs balanced internally? Yes - in as much as increased DoT increases average damage without significantly shifting KDR or W/L, meaning Clan mechs literally make more cbills per match than IS mechs. I earn more ducats in a TW, thus can better afford to buy Clan mechs for higher cbills down the road.

The issue of course is with IS pilots wanting Clan mechs.

Which takes us back to Clan mechs being OPed and advantageous, currently available only for cash and most of them only available for cash for some months yet, also Clan mechs being essentially 'elite gear' that you progress through IS mechs to get to, which invalidates IS mechs and makes CW impossible because you'll never field enough IS pilots to fill both sides of a war.

So, again. Just in case you missed it.

You're wrong and the gist of your posts make you look bad.

[Yokaiko]

ROFL

At least I can separate a game from real life.

Go sponsor a kid or something, otherwise STFU.

:edit

and as to your mechanic difference, yeah, clans spread more damage, YES damage is the be all end all of MWO income. Don't hate the player hate the game, its not my fault some see this and some don't. So if you are worried about the price of mechs that aren't coming out for 4 months yet you need to save a whopping 3.4 mil a week, and you have every dime you need.

Because its so OP, you a can gravy train from there.

See I can do MWO "economics" too. LOL MWO econ.

Edited by Yokaiko, 01 August 2014 - 01:25 PM.

[Roland]

RetroActive, on 01 August 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Yes. The MadCat can go faster with that loadout. Advantage MadCat.

If the MadCat's weapon torso is destroyed, it is helpless, and it is beyond easy to hit a MadCat's side torso. 3D can shield torsos much more easily. Advantage 3D.

See how things balance out?

Did you just say that the ctf had harder to hit side torsos?
Lolz

[Vassago Rain]

Yokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

Nice dodge.

You said YOU couldn't afford three 14-18mil mechs. That is a personal problem.




Remember this.

I can understand only keeping one, but damn dude.

So while you are at it, you don't need to blow 10 mil in upgrades for each variant while masteringthe mech, it has EVERYTHING but artemis (and who needs artemis, PPC and gauss is un debatable).

Yeah, man. Who needs players when you can have a handful of addicted old men who buy clan gundams and heromechs by the dozens every month.

I think we should make equipment more exclusive, actually. A star league subscription should be necessary to use IS XL engines and other tech 2 items.

That way, we can further stomp out the blight of the freeplayer scum from this F2P game. Only people as space rich as you and I need apply. Put everybody else back in the initial stock trialmechs. How DARE they demand fun and content without paying 55 dollars for their very own madcat or at the very least a founder account!?

Edited by Vassago Rain, 01 August 2014 - 01:26 PM.

[RetroActive]

Roland, on 01 August 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Did you just say that the ctf had harder to hit side torsos?
Lolz

I did. The TW has Stalker side torsos. You're almost FORCED to hit side torso on a MadCat.

Lolz

[Yokaiko]

Vassago Rain, on 01 August 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

Yeah, man. Who needs players when you can have a handful of addicted old men who buy clan gundams and heromechs by the dozens every month.

I think we should make equipment more exclusive, actually. A star league subscription should be necessary to use IS XL engines and other tech 2 items.

That way, we can further stomp out the blight of the freeplayer scum from this F2P game. Only people as space rich as you and I need apply. Put everybody else back in the initial stock trialmechs. How DARE they demand fun and content without paying 55 dollars for their very own madcat!?

They don't have to they can wait. This is one of those PGI isn't a charity things.

Personally I had a drunken moment of weakness and bought the Maskari pack, it was the first dime I spent on MWO since ghost heat. Actually something I regret. I hadn't played in I don't even remember how long before that, I think the Treb was the newest mech.

[Vassago Rain]

Yokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

They don't have to they can wait. This is one of those PGI isn't a charity things.

Personally I had a drunken moment of weakness and bought the Maskari pack, it was the first dime I spent on MWO since ghost heat. Actually something I regret. I hadn't played in I don't even remember how long before that, I think the Treb was the newest mech.

I like that you're hiding your 240 dollar shame with a 30 dollar shame badge, and now you're claiming that freeplayers deserve to wait and be farmed because they didn't want to sink A QUARTER OF A THOUSAND DOLLARS on virtual robots.

You are confirming that the clan grab dealer stereotype is founded in reality.

[MischiefSC]

Yokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

ROFL

At least I can separate a game from real life.

Go sponsor a kid or something, otherwise STFU.

:edit

and as to your mechanic difference, yeah, clans spread more damage, YES damage is the be all end all of MWO income. Don't hate the player hate the game, its not my fault some see this and some don't. So if you are worried about the price of mechs that aren't coming out for 4 months yet you need to save a whopping 3.4 mil a week, and you have every dime you need.

Because its so OP, you a can gravy train from there.

See I can do MWO "economics" too. LOL MWO econ.

See the whole 'economics' thing I said before. Economics is economics. You're attempting to strawman my reference to my having money not meaning other people don't. Same thing in MW:O. I've got enough cbills banked to buy whatever Clan mechs come out for cbills. I specifically try to burn an Arty and an Airstrike every match. I've got space monies too. In fact I can buy more whenever I want if I need something and can't afford it. At the moment I've got like $55 million cbills and if I don't throw it away on consumables my Prime TW variant gets me well over 100k a match consistently. Not hard to get more than 150k/match.

My having money does not mean that the cost of something is reasonable though. That you can't seem to get this is the issue and exactly why I posted what I did.

Your response of strawman + ad hominem doesn't make you less wrong. Amazingly it makes you even more wrong.

So, again. To make this one clear, since you're struggling -

You're wrong and your arguments of 'I has space monies so Clan stuff costing more is fine' makes you look bad.

Clan mechs are priced poorly for cbills. The release model of 5 or 6 months before cbill availability was poorly considered. Vassago is absolutely correct. You are wrong and drilling down on wrong doesn't burst through the other side of the argument to being correct.

[Roland]

RetroActive, on 01 August 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

I did. The TW has Stalker side torsos. You're almost FORCED to hit side torso on a MadCat.

Lolz

Maybe you don't realize this, but the stalker nose body type is actually one of the most durable in the game, exactly because, as you inadvertently point out, you can basically force your enemy to shoot your side torso. But because of the way it sticks out, you can effectively protect the strong side of your mech with fairly minimal torso twisting, soaking damage with the shield side. And with the huge engine, the mad cat ends up being incredibly nimble.

With the 3d, you are forced to either run a standard engine acne go incredibly slow, which due to the way engines work, also reduces your twist and turn speed... Or you run an xl and die when you lose a torso.

The twolf is currently one of the most durable mechs in the game, and it's hilarious that you would try to suggest a ctf is more durable since everyone knows it's not.

The twolf is a straight upgrade from the ctf. Once people are given the choice, no one is going to drive a ctf unless they have to for some reason. Anything the ctf can do, the twolf does better.

Edited by Roland, 01 August 2014 - 01:36 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Vassago Rain, on 01 August 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

Yeah, man. Who needs players when you can have a handful of addicted old men who buy clan gundams and heromechs by the dozens every month.

I think we should make equipment more exclusive, actually. A star league subscription should be necessary to use IS XL engines and other tech 2 items.

That way, we can further stomp out the blight of the freeplayer scum from this F2P game. Only people as space rich as you and I need apply. Put everybody else back in the initial stock trialmechs. How DARE they demand fun and content without paying 55 dollars for their very own madcat or at the very least a founder account!?

Imbecile.

I've been arguing for them to make the stock crap viable for years. I'm in a thread on this page saying to remove ghost heat from stock weapon loads AND revert the mlas and slas nerfs from CB.

[Yokaiko]

Vassago Rain, on 01 August 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

I like that you're hiding your 240 dollar shame with a 30 dollar shame badge, and now you're claiming that freeplayers deserve to wait and be farmed because they didn't want to sink A QUARTER OF A THOUSAND DOLLARS on virtual robots.

You are confirming that the clan grab dealer stereotype is founded in reality.

No my shame is purely philospophical, I gave more money to PGI's B-team Dev team. Which I regret. The $240 I spent is here nor there, A QUARTER OF A THOUSAND DOLLARS isn't a significant amount of money, particularly when you factor time frames. I live in an expensive place, A QUARTER OF A THOUSAND DOLLARS is dinner for two and drinks on Friday night.

Edited by Yokaiko, 01 August 2014 - 01:50 PM.

[Yokaiko]

MischiefSC, on 01 August 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

Clan mechs are priced poorly for cbills. The release model of 5 or 6 months before cbill availability was poorly considered. Vassago is absolutely correct. You are wrong and drilling down on wrong doesn't burst through the other side of the argument to being correct.

The quoted Timber, 14-16mil (I haven't looked I have them already) un-fair? To expensive?
Well alright lets look at a 75ton IS mech with the same upgrades Endo/FF/big ass XL
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e885d5df8982493

FIFTEEN MILLION.....without weapons

Doesn't sound that bad, which is exactly what I said now isn't it. Now I'm just a lowly engineer and not some big money broker, but that looks pretty close to parity to me.

I actually agree the release schedule is crap, a straight up cash grab, but patience isn't my strong suit. Then again, I NEVER mentioned real life income. Its not a factor.

Edited by Yokaiko, 01 August 2014 - 01:51 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Yokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

The quoted Timber, 14-16mil (I haven't looked I have them already) un-fair? To expensive?
Well alright lets look at a 75ton IS mech with the same upgrades Endo/FF/big ass XL
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e885d5df8982493

FIFTEEN MILLION.....without weapons

Doesn't sound that bad, which is exactly what I said now isn't it. Now I'm just a lowly engineer and not some big money broker, but that looks pretty close to parity to me.

So do we need to go over the cost of engines in IS vs Clan mechs again? How about the cost of weapons relative to one another?

Engine reuse, the fact that I can sell IS engines to recoup some costs, etc.

Reality is that you can get into a IS heavy chassis for less than 10 million with the other variants you purchase getting relatively cheaper as you are able to duplicate more hardware between them. Not so with Clan mechs.

Again. MATHZ.

[Yokaiko]

MischiefSC, on 01 August 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

So do we need to go over the cost of engines in IS vs Clan mechs again? How about the cost of weapons relative to one another?

Engine reuse, the fact that I can sell IS engines to recoup some costs, etc.

Reality is that you can get into a IS heavy chassis for less than 10 million with the other variants you purchase getting relatively cheaper as you are able to duplicate more hardware between them. Not so with Clan mechs.

Again. MATHZ.

I dont reuse engines, to restrictive, each build gets the biggest engine I can jam under it, so I own literally every Awesome in the game, and not one has the same engine. (I just looked)

Don't enforce your playstyle on me.

So that is a 10-30% premium, for NEVER having to deal with upgrades. With the stock motor and loadout that orion is 9mil with FF/endo/DHS...but again, engineer, I compare apples to apples.

Edited by Yokaiko, 01 August 2014 - 01:57 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Yokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

I dont reuse engines, to restrictive, each build gets the biggest engine I can jam under it, so I own literally every Awesome in the game, and not one has the same engine. (I just looked)

Don't enforce your playstyle on me.

So that is a 10-30% premium, for NEVER having to deal with upgrades. With the stock motor and loadout that orion is 9mil with FF/endo/DHS

No, the issue is you needing to enforce your playstyle on everyone else. Saying that we all have to buy a complete loadout for every mech at time of purchase.

So, again. Just to go over this, since we've been nailing it again and again every post.


You're wrong. You're doing what you're accusing others of doing and making arguments that are not only incorrect but self-defeating, as in you explain why you're wrong in your own comments.

Clan mechs cost more than IS mechs. Clan weapons cost more than IS weapons. Clan mechs and weapons do better, for the tonnage and hardpoint location, than IS mechs.

That is not 'balanced'. This makes Clans the 'upgrade' to IS mechs, which essentially devalues all IS mechs. It also destroys any hope for CW before it starts.

We've already covered this though. This is still just you being wrong, you're just doing it repeatedly.

[Yokaiko]

MischiefSC, on 01 August 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

No, the issue is you needing to enforce your playstyle on everyone else. Saying that we all have to buy a complete loadout for every mech at time of purchase.

So, again. Just to go over this, since we've been nailing it again and again every post.


You're wrong. You're doing what you're accusing others of doing and making arguments that are not only incorrect but self-defeating, as in you explain why you're wrong in your own comments.

Clan mechs cost more than IS mechs. Clan weapons cost more than IS weapons. Clan mechs and weapons do better, for the tonnage and hardpoint location, than IS mechs.

That is not 'balanced'. This makes Clans the 'upgrade' to IS mechs, which essentially devalues all IS mechs. It also destroys any hope for CW before it starts.

We've already covered this though. This is still just you being wrong, you're just doing it repeatedly.

Just stick your fingers in your ears and stomp up and down eh?

FACT, if you build the same size IS mech to the specs for a clan mech you will get VERY similar prices. IS guass 600,000 cguass 600,000

IS ER-PPC 600,000 cER-PPC 600,000
clans don't get the standard option

cuAC-5 400,000 IS uAC-5 400,000





But by all means, keep repeating yourself. If you say it enough maybe someone will believe it. Seems to work with PGI.

By the way there is a database for that, at LEAST try to be factual when you start babbling about facts.

Edited by Yokaiko, 01 August 2014 - 02:04 PM.

[Jeb]

People get your stories straight... are fixed clan engines better or worse... they survive better then IS XLs but they are fixed... meaning higher cost per mech... ask the clan lights if they would give up their clan XLs for swappable engines...

We all knew that clan mechs were going to cost a lot of ISK... and that is why I decided to pay in advance for them with real $... to me the cost in time was not worth it to wait and pay in ISK... I am broke in game all the time lol... I knew if I wanted even a few of the clan mechs leveled up, it was gonna be rough on the pocket book...

Clan weapons are lighter and take up less crit slots... clan mechs can't remove FF or Endo to free up crit slots like IS mechs can... that is the balance IMO... your stuck with the crit slots your mech has... on top of that, clan mechs have hardwired heatsinks in some cases (known weak spot if you take them out) which also limit build options... and Jump Jets hardwired in as well in some mechs... can't free up space or weight if you don't want them....


Now are Clans overpowered? I don't' think they are, but some things are a bit too strong...

Clan lasers range is too high... the current maps do not allow IS the cover to move in on most maps, and the clan lasers can cover huge areas if the clans get a high spot (which a lot of our maps put right in the center...)

The TW is the best mech in the game... if it's not a Timber wolf, it's something else... there will always be a best mech as we will never have 100% balance... does this make clans overpowered? No... does the TW need to be toned down just a bit? yes...

1-2 shot kills are an issue for IS and Clans IMO... the time to kill is getting too short for some mech builds...


The problem with these tests is as people pointed out, clans have the advantage...

No new players in fixed champion mechs is one advantage.

Another advantage is the devs did a good job on the clan mechs... they are all mostly good. Add in the fact that there are only 2 of each weight class, and your probably ending up with the best of each weight class in the drops... Compare that to the IS mechs... 36 options for just the Heavy weight class... some good, some bad... some good mechs with bad loadouts etc... Odds are a lot higher IS are dropping with mechs that are not as good... that does not mean they don't have good mechs... they do, but they are not going to be dropping with all good mechs usually...

If the IS fielded say Shadowhawks, Cataphracts, Stalkers, and maybe Firestarters and Ravens, they would be more evenly matched... (you can swap out those for other decent mechs but that is just an example)

Also the play style we see a lot of today is ranged sniper fests... well this favors the clan mechs... if you take a bunch of random players that don't know much else then ranged sniper fests, and give one team the mechs with that advantage, they will lose...


So do some things need some tweaking? Sure... but take the entire picture into account, not just a small narrow view that will ruin things in the long run.