134 replies to this topic

[feor]

Prosperity Park, on 01 December 2011 - 10:15 AM, said:

I know that Battletech has targeting limitations and such, and MWO is supposed to adhere to TT rules as closely as possible... but, honestly, if MWO was really based on TT rules then movement speed would be measured in Hexes instead of kilometers/hour, the game would be turn-based, and we'd watch virtual dice rolling across the screen on a regular basis.

Compromise is in order.

One compromise that I suggest the Devs adopt in porting the TT game to a live-action-shooter is the ability to deliberately target body parts of your foes. If you can't target body parts, then you might as well incorporate a mandatory auto-aim function that directs all shots to the center-of-frontal-mass [+/- weapon accuracy].

That would suck.

In some background info that is actually how mechs target, however. You don't point the guns so much as point & click on an enemy and the computer does the actual aligning of the guns for you. It's possible that both are actually valid, with more skillful pilots able to take direct control of aiming their weapons with a degree of success.

I admit that I would prefer direct fire, though a cone of inaccuracy that shrinks the longer you keep your reticle on a target could make a degree of sense.

[Corsair101]

While I am a long time player of the tabletop game, where I really enjoy using gimped and legless 'mechs for opportunity shots and comedic value - I don't see an easy solution to allowing proper TT legging in the online game.

Let's assume the player is allowed to stay in their cockpit when they are legged - let's even assume they can prop themselves up / roll over / balance precariously like a turret - what happens when the last 2 mechs in a match left alive are both legged?

Essentially you have a game that cannot end without outside interference - this could be a time limit, but then do to stubborness (and a competitive desire) you may have two players unwilling to eject or otherwise forfeit until the timer runs out - essentially stopping the game not only for themselves but other players as well.

You could have a legged mech be a tactical kill - essentially exisiting and and active in their own way, but once every mech on their team is dead or likewise tactically killed the match ends. But that comes with its own set of problems as well - essentially it still fails to address players legging the hell out of each other.

The lore DOES state over and over 'mechs can survive the fall, the pilot's can ride out the damage and the machines can maintain a degree of combat effecacy - but for gameplay's sake, and more specifically match resolution's sake, I don't see a reasonable compromise that allows us the ability to both properly leg a mech and keep the game moving at an appropriate pace.

As a last note, making targeting other 'mechs less twitch-pinpoint and more simulation oriented (ie trickshots at 1000 meters out from mech3 and mech4 are out) can help if legs are moving quickly enough to be a less viable target (harder to hit) might help a bit ... but it's impossible to say until working gameplay is presented.

Edited by Corsair101, 01 December 2011 - 05:41 PM.

[feor]

Corsair101, on 01 December 2011 - 05:37 PM, said:

While I am a long time player of the tabletop game, where I really enjoy using gimped and legless 'mechs for opportunity shots and comedic value - I don't see an easy solution to allowing proper TT legging in the online game.

Let's assume the player is allowed to stay in their cockpit when they are legged - let's even assume they can prop themselves up / roll over / balance precariously like a turret - what happens when the last 2 mechs in a match left alive are both legged?

Essentially you have a game that cannot end without outside interference - this could be a time limit, but then do to stubborness (and a competitive desire) you may have two players unwilling to eject or otherwise forfeit until the timer runs out - essentially stopping the game not only for themselves but other players as well.

You could have a legged mech be a tactical kill - essentially exisiting and and active in their own way, but once every mech on their team is dead or likewise tactically killed the match ends. But that comes with its own set of problems as well - essentially it still fails to address players legging the hell out of each other.

The lore DOES state over and over 'mechs can survive the fall, the pilot's can ride out the damage and the machines can maintain a degree of combat effecacy - but for gameplay's sake, and more specifically match resolution's sake, I don't see a reasonable compromise that allows us the ability to both properly leg a mech and keep the game moving at an appropriate pace.

As a last note, making targeting other 'mechs less twitch-pinpoint and more simulation oriented (ie trickshots at 1000 meters out from mech3 and mech4 are out) can help if legs are moving quickly enough to be a less viable target (harder to hit) might help a bit ... but it's impossible to say until working gameplay is presented.

I think the tactical kill scenario is probably the best compromise. In terms of how to make legging less viable as a tactic. Like I showed above, most mechs legs should be almost as hard to destroy as the mech's center torso (with exceptions, of course). Meaning that while you're pouring firepower into your enemy's legs, he can just blow off both your side torsos (and associated arms, I really hope the arms go with the torsos in this game, not remain functional like in MW4) and you're left pecking away at his legs with whatever head and CT mounted weapons you decided to bring. Then your opponent can just pick you off at his leisure.

[Corsair101]

In the TT game the legs are nearly always the second hardest section to destroy - and the side torsos can be just as deadly to lose if destroyed - XL engines in IS designs leave a 'mech dead if a side torso is blown off. So yeah, what Feor said.

[Agasutin]

Corsair101, on 01 December 2011 - 05:37 PM, said:

Let's assume the player is allowed to stay in their cockpit when they are legged - let's even assume they can prop themselves up / roll over / balance precariously like a turret - what happens when the last 2 mechs in a match left alive are both legged?

Essentially you have a game that cannot end without outside interference - this could be a time limit, but then do to stubborness (and a competitive desire) you may have two players unwilling to eject or otherwise forfeit until the timer runs out - essentially stopping the game not only for themselves but other players as well.

Well in my experience that would be considered a stalemate/draw/etc., and at that point (if I was a remaining pilot), I would consult with exhibit A.

Edited by Agasutin, 02 December 2011 - 03:52 AM.

[VYCanis]

if you have no respawn and 2 legged opponents on opposite ends of the map

just call it a draw. Doesn't need to be more complicated than that. I mean thats what happened isn't it? both sides knocked themselves out on each other.

Or maybe you can make use of a heavy salvage lifter type vtol or ground vehicle to swoop/roll in and either drag you off for repairs, or give you some on the spot fixes, enough to give you back mobility

[Corsair101]

That is the point though - there needs to be a built-in method of "calling a draw" so two legged players don't wait out timers and irritate everyone else in the game. Providing there is such a system built in, then good times.

[Agasutin]

Corsair101, on 02 December 2011 - 10:02 AM, said:

That is the point though - there needs to be a built-in method of "calling a draw" so two legged players don't wait out timers and irritate everyone else in the game. Providing there is such a system built in, then good times.

Agreed.

[JzT Dolomite]

That Guy, on 20 November 2011 - 01:29 PM, said:

you have never played a realistic game then, have you?

Legging is a severe tactical problem (a problem that you the player has to deal with), but it should not be an automatic kill. the game should not just say "oh your leg is gone, you're dead, thanks for playing, even though all your weapons are still fully functional, chump"

Cause you have never played in a clan match like I did in MW2 where each team had to kill their own man if they got legged. We took the terrain and they took the gamemode, which led to so much fun when our best guy got legged 3 times and we had to kill him so he could respawn((That was an ugly game that had each side mercy killing their own guys cause once the "No legging" rule went out the window, we went to town on them)).

We won that match and promptly lost half of the team cause legging was just to damn easy. Look do what MW4 did and make it hard to leg a mech, and if it happens they limp along(( which still pretty much vunerable to anybody with mobility, but gives them a chance to fight back)).

I don't mind legging, just make it hard enough so that you can advoid situations where you can spend 5 minutes face down in the dirt, cause if that happens too much you can bet we will lose a chunk of people who could play calling BS on this. Legging should be a tatic NOT a central way to fight in MW.

[DEVASTATOR]

Red Beard, on 20 November 2011 - 01:39 PM, said:

Deciding to not use the TT rule set is, in NO WAY, "moving away from the IP". That's not even funny. The TT rules do not, at all, define this game, nor the MW franchise. The only thing that the TT rules define is what can happen in the TT game. Everything that the devs have suggested in relation to leaving behind the TT rules is a positive and progressive thing.

Amen.

But, more to the subject at hand, I actually liked the way MW4 implemented legging. MW3 was such a leg fest that it got a bit ridiculous. It was compounded by the fact that you could cripple a mech by damaging the leg then run off to shoot up the other mech that had just respawned miles away and out of fire support reach from his partner. Then, come back to finish off the wounded mech sitting all alone.

Now, there were a multitude of other factors making legging the champion's preferred kill method in MW3 - many of which weren't present in MW4. But you have to agree, legging was almost non existent in MW4 which was the goal and whether you liked the way they solved the problem or not it worked.

I'd like to see a system where legging a mech is very difficult to do. I suggested smaller hit boxes fro legs meaning you'd have to hit a pretty small area to register a leg hit which would make it harder to do. But, I'd much prefer to see a VARIETY of legged mech animations that would include:

- complete leg destruction resulting in a toppled mech (rare)
- 1 leg destroyed = slower movement (more common)
- 2 legs destroyed = toppled and completely useless mech

I don't want to see mechs getting legged all the time with the pilot left to sit in the field while the play goes on for an hour. That'll bother a LOT of players. So, the mech will either need to be destoyed via legging somehow or slowed down but still playable. Toppling over and still being alive and firing with minimal effectiveness is not a good solution.

Edited by DEVASTATOR, 18 January 2012 - 01:23 PM.

[Vulpesveritas]

DEVASTATOR, on 18 January 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

Amen.

But, more to the subject at hand, I actually liked the way MW4 implemented legging. MW3 was such a leg fest that it got a bit ridiculous. It was compounded by the fact that you could cripple a mech by damaging the leg then run off to shoot up the other mech that had just respawned miles away and out of fire support reach from his partner. Then, come back to finish off the wounded mech sitting all alone.

Now, there were a multitude of other factors making legging the champion's preferred kill method in MW3 - many of which weren't present in MW4. But you have to agree, legging was almost non existent in MW4 which was the goal and whether you liked the way they solved the problem or not it worked.

I'd like to see a system where legging a mech is very difficult to do. I suggested smaller hit boxes fro legs meaning you'd have to hit a pretty small area to register a leg hit which would make it harder to do. But, I'd much prefer to see a VARIETY of legged mech animations that would include:

- complete leg destruction resulting in a toppled mech (rare)
- 1 leg destroyed = slower movement (more common)
- 2 legs destroyed = toppled and completely useless mech

I don't want to see mechs getting legged all the time with the pilot left to sit in the field while the play goes on for an hour. That'll bother a LOT of players. So, the mech will either need to be destoyed via legging somehow or slowed down but still playable. Toppling over and still being alive and firing with minimal effectiveness is not a good solution.

But it is more realistic.

[DEVASTATOR]

Vulpesveritas, on 18 January 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

But it is more realistic.

I'm all for realism in a game - when it makes sense and doesn't detract from game play. Can't say i want to be the first one lying face down in the dirt staring at the ants while everyone else plays for the next hour without me.

Do you?

[Larry Headrick]

DEVASTATOR, on 18 January 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

I'm all for realism in a game - when it makes sense and doesn't detract from game play. Can't say i want to be the first one lying face down in the dirt staring at the ants while everyone else plays for the next hour without me.

Do you?

If I ended up that way I would eject. Game over. Find a new game, or become a ghost in lancemates mech.
But thats just me.

Edit: clarification

Edited by Larry Headrick, 18 January 2012 - 03:40 PM.

[Ravn]

Mechs eject upward... lying on your side you'd turn into a tumbling ball of goo. Just climb out.

Edited by Ravn, 18 January 2012 - 08:49 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

LOL

The Dev's have stated that there will be an auto-eject... so I'd like to see how they deal with a Mech that's laying on the ground from a blunt-force impact - that's then killed while laying down already...