35 replies to this topic

[Monkey Lover]

stop screwing with gauss and ppc. This game needs sniping mechs. There is almost nothing else to do. You people already killed everything else.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

stop screwing with gauss and ppc. This game needs sniping mechs. There is almost nothing else to do. You people already killed everything else.

No one is trying to remove sniping. But they are probably about to but hard limits on PPC and guass combos. So I am thinking possible it might be better to have a soft limit. I know crazy right if you think about it I never suggested we should kill sniping.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Gauss does less DPS than the AC-10 and AC-20 btw, and barely more (+0.16) than the AC-5.
3 AC-2 deal more than double its DPS (3.16 vs 8.33) for 3 more tons, they match velocity, but then heat comes into play as well as not delivering all that damage in an instant.

Btw, storing energy into or depleting energy from any capacitor does indeed generate heat.

The thing is though, the GaussRifle would have to be generating 6+ heat, same as AC-20, otherwise its still heat neutral on its own.

Single Gauss is not particularly deadly, but with 0 heat, its easily stackable with high energy weapons.

Now I'm in the same boat feeling that Gauss is actually pretty good where it sits, a little heat couldn't hurt, but it certainly isn't going to change much either.

Still comes down to (beating that horse) our current system of convergence, when more than 1 weapon is striking the exact same spot with perfect synchronization.

Slowing down the PPC projectile to 1750 (not the suggested 1000 or 750) is just enough to simulate/workaround convergence and achieve a similar result at the 800m+ area during synchronized fire where Gauss+ppc is concerned.

A real convergence system seems to be out of the question, but until its actually submitted to, we're just going to have to keep dealing with nerf after stupid nerf.

Edited by Mister D, 03 August 2014 - 03:41 AM.

[Viges]

PPC/gauss nerf = clans buff

clans can increase projectiles speeds with targeting computers and their lasers are better (esp with targeting comp again)

so making clans even more op... well whatever, who cares

[Monkey Lover]

XX Sulla XX, on 03 August 2014 - 03:00 AM, said:

No one is trying to remove sniping. But they are probably about to but hard limits on PPC and guass combos. So I am thinking possible it might be better to have a soft limit. I know crazy right if you think about it I never suggested we should kill sniping.

Sniping without a ppc +gauss or IS ac is not real. We are going to turn into a cda with two er laser sniping game again.

If it doesn't hurt and hurt bad its not sniping Just long range shooting.. I find it funny no one ever talks about the ppc+gauss user getting hunted down by a srm mech and then is eaten alive. Or the firestarter taking out a ppc+gauss dire.

Its only when they get hit do they run to the forms crying.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 03 August 2014 - 03:58 AM.

[Prezimonto]

Ultimatum X, on 02 August 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

1 Gauss hitting a single point is not a problem.

It's a 12 to 15 ton weapon. The end result needs to justify that weight, or it will go unused.

I agree. No SINGLE weapon in this game is overpowered, and with a few execeptoins that are underpowered they're pretty well balanced against each other. The problem is multiples of weapons that aren't intended to work together. Smaller weapons are meant to work in bunches, even smaller ballistics in pairs, or quads for AC2. The larger weapons even in pairs cause problems.

mixed loadouts of pin-point front loaded damage cause problems. They do this because the system is designed to have a die spread that weights towards the center torso, but significantly spreads shots around the mech, particular to the outter edges more often than good players will ever hit in a game based on aiming.

2d6 Probabilities
2 X
3 X X
4 X X X
5 X X X X
6 X X X X X
7 X X X X X X
8 X X X X X
9 X X X X
10 X X X
11 X X
12 X

Double armor doesn't compensate for 3x number of shots. Nor does it compensate for the ability to aim, when your weapons all deal damage to a point.

Not all our weapons deal large pin-point damage, the ones that do are the problem.

They're the problem because we have automatic, perfect convergence of all weapons.

Fixing one combination at a time of sets of weapons that deal problematic amounts of pin-point alpha damage is stupid, as Roland pointed out. It can only lead to the next best combination, which will also need an adjustment.

The only two options are to limit alpha damage or to nerf perfect instant convergence. Either option should be dealt with holistically rather than one tiny piece at a time (Ghost heat, weapon desyncs, energy load... all are piecemeal approaches to single problem).

Edited by Prezimonto, 03 August 2014 - 05:56 AM.

[Krasnovian]

Convergence is and will continue to be a systemic problem and until it is addressed PGI will just try to balance weapons piecemeal where ever they think is necessary. PGI has already said they will not make big changes to fix convergence, I'm not entirely sure that big changes are needed.

The fact is there is a mechanic in game that can be used to spread damage without removing the ability of skilled players to land pinpoint or near pinpoint hits.

Currently all weapons attempt to converge perfectly wherever the reticle is placed, but the convergence point takes time to adjust to target range, by changing that rate we could get effective damage spread without introducing any reduction in accuracy. Skilled players, by limiting the amount of range adjustment or allowing a little more time for the adjustment to take place, could still land perfect hits at any range.

This change would reduce effectiveness of poptarting, would reduce TTK at all ranges especially in brawls where convergence ranges change quickly, it would also be a buff to lights and mediums who are now prey to large pinpoint snap shots at close to medium range that leg or outright kill them.

[Tezcatli]

Roland, on 02 August 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

There is nothing about fixing the convergence system which requires randomization of shots.

So what are you suggesting?

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Sniping without a ppc +gauss or IS ac is not real. We are going to turn into a cda with two er laser sniping game again.

If it doesn't hurt and hurt bad its not sniping Just long range shooting.. I find it funny no one ever talks about the ppc+gauss user getting hunted down by a srm mech and then is eaten alive. Or the firestarter taking out a ppc+gauss dire.

Its only when they get hit do they run to the forms crying

As I just said they are about do something about PPC and guess. It will probably be a hard cap on how many can fire. I am trying to think of better ways to prevent things like 2 or 3 Clan ERPPCs and 2 guass Dire Wolves. That why I suggested that maybe adding heat and removing the charge mechanic might work. This is why it would be more helpful to suggest other alternatives and balances instead of crying about how I want to nerf snipers

[Mad Dog Morgan]

How to deal with weapons convergence.


Recoil.

A gauss rifle isn't recoilless, either. You're accelerating mass. That requires force being exerted.

Another example.

Edited by Vaskadar, 03 August 2014 - 11:18 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Roland, on 02 August 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

No, the real issue is weapons convergence.

All of the balance problems that have plagued this game since beta can be traced to that.

And it's resulted in tons of bad and poorly conceived ideas for trying to dance around the issue.

They nerfed the medium and small laser to try and deal with the problem of the hunchback 4p being able to turn 9 small lasers into one super laser.

They nerfed rooms of weapons with ghost heat, to try and prevent people from combining ppcs or ac20s into 40 pony super weapons.

They added a gauss charge to try to prevent people from using it as a replacement for the ppcs decreed by ghost heat.

They then nerfed the ac10 to try and prevent people from using it as a replacement for the gauss.

Then they nerfed the ac5 to try and prevent it being used as a replacement for the 10 (although it was actually already being used prior to the 10 Nerf).

If you look through mwo's development history, you see a long chain of changes and nerfs that are all misguided attempts to avoid making the single task fix, which is to stop instant and perfect weapons convergence.

Plus motherf*@&ing ONE

[Cest7]

Adding heat to a gauss rifle sounds like something stupid that PGI would do,,,

[AlexEss]

I like that Roland is as stubborn as he/she claim PGI to be... Neither leaving their path.

But adding heat to the Gauss... Nah it just feel wrong.

[Y E O N N E]

xeromynd, on 02 August 2014 - 09:40 PM, said:

Here's a radical suggestion:

What if PPCs were the weapon with the charge. Not Gauss rifles.

My understanding is that PPCs are supposed to have to charge up to fire. I rather like the idea of a PPC charging and firing with a single click; no option to abort.

The reason the Gauss explodes is because it is already holding a charge to fire, something it does automatically after every round. Having to charge it up makes no sense with the explosion mechanic the way it is.

[Aim64C]

Roland, on 02 August 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

Every time you create a convoluted Nerf mechanism to avoid dealing with the fundamental issue of perfect weapons convergence, you will fail to achieve your goal.

As we have now seen a half dozen times, all that happens is that players who understand the game migrate to the next best option for combining weapons into the largest alpha strike possible.

When insanity pointed out that this was going to be the result, way back in closed beta, there was at least some understandability to why people might not grasp what he was saying.

But now? After we have seen it happen over and over again through the development of this game? If people still don't understand the fundamental problem we are dealing with, then it means they are too stupid to engage in the discussion.

Even giving weapons a convergence system will still fail to address the balancing issue.

Convergence won't fix the fundamental reason why few people would choose to play a locust (aside from the pure fact that if you put it in the game people will play it for the hell of it). It won't suddenly make light mechs capable of 'fitting' into Team Solaris.

Which is the problem - Team Solaris.

The fundamental problem with MechWarrior Online's balance is not weapons. It's not heat. It's not even convergence.

The fundamental problem is that of game design. When you try to throw 24 players into a match with each other where the only real thing to do is have a deathmatch - it should come as no surprise that the mechs with the least armor and least amount of firepower get chosen. The mediums and lights that survive into a more competitive environment are niche builds that pack a unique amount of firepower into a maneuverable solution (usually involving SRMs because who needs an LBX?).

There are no vehicles to intercept. No field artillery to flank and harass. No long range scout patrols to worry about discovering your base assault team.

It's all-out rock-em-sock-em robots in an enclosed arena with nowhere to go.

Even the 'old' idea that a team needed to consider base defense has largely gone out of the way as turrets invalidated all but a rush by light or medium mechs. Can't have the whole team running off like fools to leave the base unguarded - players are not thinking creatures and the game should certainly not expect them to be.

Weapons like the laser were useful for dealing with vehicular assaults and for long operations away from field support (as were most energy weapons). Missiles and autocannons were useful for when you were going in and expecting a lot of intense action in a very short amount of time.

Small lasers and machine guns were useful for dealing with infantry and other soft targets. They were not necessarily supposed to be used to battle other mechs - it wasn't really the intent of the weapon system. They are meant to be low cost weapons to use against the infantry platoon or the hovercraft that is causing problems, rather than waste your AC20 or LRM20 ammo.

The real problem is that the game does not have the proper elements to actually utilize the role warfare that it proclaims to have. There really is not much of a use or a need for light scout mechs.

Further, with the way things are, now, individual death is horribly damaging to the success/failure of the team. While no individual should feel 'expendable' or inconsequential to their team - the game design is incredibly stressful for new players who are not veterans of the series (and even those who are who are finding out that the single player game from years ago was much more lenient than the multiplayer competitive environment). There is literally no sense of 'victory' but every sense of 'failure.'

How do you mark success? Kills. Maybe assists. And whether or not your team 'wins.'

Generally speaking - Team Solaris is not a good model from which to build a game like MechWarrior. Even many first person shooters avoid the purely arena-style multiplayer combat and have begun exploring other modes of play and include other gimmicks to keep the game from being frustrating and/or boring.

It's like someone read the "Game design 101" book and then decided: "Hey... let's revive the MechWarrior IP and do everything exactly opposite of what it says, here, because what the hell does a book know about games?"

[Aim64C]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 August 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

My understanding is that PPCs are supposed to have to charge up to fire. I rather like the idea of a PPC charging and firing with a single click; no option to abort.

The reason the Gauss explodes is because it is already holding a charge to fire, something it does automatically after every round. Having to charge it up makes no sense with the explosion mechanic the way it is.

I actually suggest that a PPC should be a charge-and-release weapon with the damage propritional to the charge (as well as the weapon having a very slight 'burn' shorter than a pulse laser). For a standard PPC - charging the PPC generates 5 points of heat over the duration of the charge - or, if we assume it takes 2 seconds to fully charge, 2.5 heat per second to charge and maintain a charge (or perhaps the maintenance on the charge is lower in heat terms).

This gives the PPC capacitor a natural fit into the game.

I mentioned this like a year ago and people said I was nucking futz... although with the forum reorganizations since then, I can't find the topic I made about it.

Then you don't have to worry about 'ghost heat' - as half of your heat is delivered up-front, (and a 'charge maintenance heat' applied) while the rest is delivered when the weapon is fired with a very slight damage over time factor so we aren't dealing with complete pinpoint damage insanity.

If you can charge 6 PPCs and then hold that charge long enough to do anything useful with them as they are building up heat... have fun.

Of course - as I've just said, most of the balance problems are due to a lack of proper role warfare. All of the balance gimmicks in the world won't fix a fundamentally broken gaming environment.