65 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 03 August 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

MW3 had around a 40 cap, MW4 was closer to 60 I believe.

MWO can have well over 80, on top of environmental bonuses.


Things we could get away with simply wouldn't work in previous titles.

In MW3, I can build a "Ghetto Hellstar" Daishi with 4 CERPPC and 31 DHS. When I alpha strike with it, I shut down instantly but then instantly start back up, and fully cool off before the CERPPCs are fully reloaded. Rinse, lather, repeat until bored.

MW3 let you build really really heat efficient mechs. One of my favorites was an Annhilator with 4 CERLL and 2 CLPL. It couldn't fire indefinitely, but it could fire a few salvos and then switch to volley fire for a while. It was way more heat efficient than the vast majority of MWO mechs are...

Edited by FupDup, 03 August 2014 - 10:33 PM.

[o0Marduk0o]

When heat becomes no issue, something is wrong.
They said it often enough that this is the reason for higher heat cap and lower cooling rates.

Edited by o0Marduk0o, 03 August 2014 - 10:50 PM.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 03 August 2014 - 10:33 PM, said:

In MW3, I can build a "Ghetto Hellstar" Daishi with 4 CERPPC and 31 DHS. When I alpha strike with it, I shut down instantly but then instantly start back up, and fully cool off before the CERPPCs are fully reloaded. Rinse, lather, repeat until bored.

MW3 let you build really really heat efficient mechs. One of my favorites was an Annhilator with 4 CERLL and 2 CLPL. It couldn't fire indefinitely, but it could fire a few salvos and then switch to volley fire for a while. It was way more heat efficient than the vast majority of MWO mechs are...

I could only fit 29 DHS, not sure where you fit the other 2. I can't seem to find where to put engine heatsinks...

Anyhow, 3 ERPPCs bring you to 80% heat, if 45=80%, then...the heat capacity is around 55 heat?

4 does shut you down immediately, and you're nearly ready to fire when you power back up with 29 DHS, but not quite. If you're in water....boy, does that cool FAST.

Why can't MWO have functional heatsinks...

Edited by Mcgral18, 03 August 2014 - 11:14 PM.

[Ghillie Dhu]

Yawn . . .
Honestly the way you guys go on it's like you think PGI want to fail with mwo and end unemployed with a pup on their hands !

[CocoaJin]

Alphas are fine...but perfect pin point accuracy and convergence with everything that's happening while on the move, etc, etc and without targeting computers is "easy button".

Its about as skillful as a game letting players "run and gun"with a .50 sniper rifle like its a handgun. It totally goes in the face of the skills required to properly and effectively utilize a weapon system with inherent weaknesses and difficulties to off set its strengths. Instead, we get to swing weapons around as if in a physics vacuum, totally without regard to how interactions and reactions with the world and operation of the mech around us impacts weapon alignment.

No...Alphas are fine, but the various weapon mounts ought to be displaying done level of dispersion...and as pilots, we should be displaying skill in managing our weapons fire in spite of these inherent inaccuracies incurred in the real time on the battlefield. Either by waiting for the various weapons to improve their convergence as part of their normal aiming/alignment process...or cycling through weapons as their individual cross hairs rack over our desired aim point....or just firing the alpha and accepting the spread.

[Grantham Besat]

Heat in MWO vs older titles is very brutal. As for pinpoint damage i would rather deal it than flammers cooking of my ammo, nova cat popsnipers, lrm spam, arrow iv hits, and the consumable spam I see in this game now. The trick when we talk abount canon is to understand tt is a game that ballances itself with a set of rules set in a sci fi world. MWO is a computer game which requires a differant set of ballances. You cant make a fps computer game with pure tt rules. Read the books and piolts dont spam weapons they aim at points and luck, skill, and murphey take over. That feels like what happens in MWO. Remeber your mech is set up per cannon for maybe 2 minutes of sustained combat it isnt that short a fight in the story because shells and such hit at random. TT uses random impacts to simulate how both mechs moving affect fire. MWO has both mechs moving and reacting in real time and throws in a nice cockpit shaking to make it even worse. Every game intro in the past has shown mechs using aimed pinpoint fire on each other including pinpoint missle fire in some.

Edited by Grantham Besat, 04 August 2014 - 12:58 AM.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

Coralld, on 03 August 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Actually weapon balance isan't that bad, people like to be melodramatic.

The only real problem for weapon balance is the PPFLD Alphas. PPC+ACs and PPC+Gauss.
Now I know there are a lot of people think that something should be done with weapon convergence, well, let me run down the list as to why that is just as convoluted as what PGI has suggested.

1: FLD weapons will still be better than DOT weapons which defeats the purpose of having this mechanic to begin with because even if the FLD weapon hits a mech in a spot you were not targeting, it still deals full damage to that location. DOT weapons like Lasers will be all over the place like a freaking light show and be about as effective, or you can make DOT weapon have pinpoint but then they are better than FLD because FLD weapons are unreliable.
I have listened to all sorts of ideas on how to pull this off and it always boils back down to this inevitable fact.

2: MWO actually had delayed convergence in game in CB, but it made hit detection crap and caused lag spikes to go through the roof as it played havoc on the HSR system.
Who's to say that other implementations of differing weapon convergence won't also cause problems like that again?

3: Creating a new convergence system of sorts is more difficult, will take time to build, test, and implement. Tweaking weapon behavior is easier and quicker.

4: PGI said no already, so that leaves us with finding alternatives with the tools we have left.

One of the best ways to deal with PPFLD Alphas, at least with PPC+ACs, is to make IS ACs burst fire as well, but with fewer shells, and a bit faster projectile speed, on top of that, increase base cycle time for CL ACs and CL UACs (which will effect UACs double tap) and increase shell count per burst for Clan ACs over all.
Most people like this idea and agree with it, also Russ stated in a tweet that "Its on our radar".

As for the PPCs+Gauss... Well... Who knows.

There is no such combo in game as GR+*xPPC's... it's only available for clans nor for Inner Sphere. Cause IS gauss is a prechargeable weapon. So? What they gonna nerf? Clans? Yeah, right, dream about it.

Mister Blastman, on 03 August 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

No. This game is based on Battletech. There isn't reliable pinpoint damage in Battletech without a Targeting Computer, which costs gross amounts of crits and tonnage.

MWO is NOT a tabletop diced oldfaggish crap. MWO - Is an arcade simulator of the mech. Get used to it and get over it. Tt rules are NOT applicable to MWO at all.
Comparing Battletech tt-game with MWO is same like comparing fridge with toilet seat. Senseless.

Edited by Hagoromo Gitsune, 04 August 2014 - 01:12 AM.

[Voidcrafter]

To OP:
"The Truth" has a lot in common with "the intellect" and "the As$" -
when you have too much from it and start rubbing it in all the other people's noses - you start getting kinda unbearable for all the people around you.

There ain't a "The" infront of "truth" - rather use an "A". At least that way you would make it easier for the people to connect you with the "intellectual" part of what I mentioned

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

Voidcrafter, on 04 August 2014 - 01:17 AM, said:

To OP:
"The Truth" has a lot in common with "the intellect" and "the As$" -
when you have too much from it and start rubbing it in all the other people's noses - you start getting kinda unbearable for all the people around you.

There ain't a "The" infront of "truth" - rather use an "A". At least that way you would make it easier for the people to connect you with the "intellectual" part of what I mentioned

So you didn't get a difference between "the" and "a"? Hmmm.... weird.

[Satan n stuff]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 04 August 2014 - 01:08 AM, said:

There is no such combo in game as GR+*xPPC's... it's only available for clans nor for Inner Sphere. Cause IS gauss is a prechargeable weapon. So? What they gonna nerf? Clans? Yeah, right, dream about it.

Are you under the impression that Clan and IS Gauss operate differently? Because they are completely identical aside from their tonnage and size.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 04 August 2014 - 01:35 AM.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

Satan n stuff, on 04 August 2014 - 01:34 AM, said:

Are you under the impression that Clan and IS Gauss operate differently? Because they are completely identical aside from their tonnage and size.

Exactly, but PeGIs will mostly nerf IS gauss... as usual.

[Impyrium]

One thing I've always been wondering, regarding the reason pinpoint convergence is still here, is WHY it's still here. Is it because:

• PGI just doesn't want to change it and has other plans for the game?
  
• It's actually impossible regarding their current set up and would require lots of reworks?
  
• It's too unforgiving for newbies?

There has to be some reason. There's no way PGI isn't aware of the issue, but they've avoided it, so why?

Edited by AUSwarrior24, 04 August 2014 - 04:06 AM.

[MonkeyDCecil]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 04 August 2014 - 03:48 AM, said:

Exactly, but PeGIs will mostly nerf IS gauss... as usual.

Why would they just nerf the IS gauss. That is just stupid. And you are just being facetious.

AUSwarrior24, on 04 August 2014 - 04:05 AM, said:

One thing I've always been wondering, regarding the reason pinpoint convergence is still here, is WHY it's still here. Is it because:

• PGI just doesn't want to change it and has other plans for the game?
  
• It's actually impossible regarding their current set up and would require lots of reworks?
  
• It's too unforgiving for newbies?

There has to be some reason. There's no way PGI isn't aware of the issue, but they've avoided it, so why?

I personally think, that they can not get rid of pin point because of the HRS issues.

[Euphor Kell]

We had convergence.
Back in beta.
It worked well... provided we didn't get lag of over 50ms.
Then came Host-State Rewind (HSR)
Which basically meant that when you pull the trigger, the server would backdate that to however many ms your ping is.
Which meant that the server had to remember the position of 16 mechs for the last half-second (give or take a bit, it was only 8v8 back then)
It was too much for the servers to handle that much information at a time, and that caused lag spikes, so it was turned off. (Take a look at some early beta footage of the dragon mech in particular and you'll see what I mean, it took a hell of a lot of skill to hit with anything mounted from those arms)

[Lily from animove]

Mcgral18, on 03 August 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

Why can't MWO have functional heatsinks...

because unlike MW3 where you had quite a long time in a level with many opponents compared to you 4 mechs, Ammo is quite irrelevant in MWO. So people would start to throw 2 or 3 gauss in their mechs, and not care about the heat, because it would be instant gone. Also AC's. If we would have really long lasting battles, and Ammo would be a real tactical choice people would not run these builds which are extremely heat efficient since in MWo, extreme heat efficience was extremely ammo inefficient.

[Coralld]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 04 August 2014 - 01:08 AM, said:

There is no such combo in game as GR+*xPPC's... it's only available for clans nor for Inner Sphere. Cause IS gauss is a prechargeable weapon. So? What they gonna nerf? Clans? Yeah, right, dream about it.

What?!

Do you even play MWO?!

[Mister Blastman]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 04 August 2014 - 01:08 AM, said:

MWO is NOT a tabletop diced oldfaggish crap. MWO - Is an arcade simulator of the mech. Get used to it and get over it. Tt rules are NOT applicable to MWO at all.
Comparing Battletech tt-game with MWO is same like comparing fridge with toilet seat. Senseless.

LOL Tell me how you really feel!

Unlike you, some of us have been playing Mechwarrior since 1996. Think before you speak, next time. We know what we are talking about.

You can't compare them 1:1, but the SPIRIT of Battletech direcly carries over because MWO uses Battletech's armor system which was intended for damage to NOT be applied in a pinpoint fashion. So we have two choices:

1. Change the armor system dramatically via either adding more hitboxes (this diagram goes from 3 to 9 in the torso... I'd argue going to 18)...




-or-

2. Removing pinpoint convergence.

This problem we are discussing... has been around since Mechwarrior 3. It wasn't nearly as much of an issue in Mechwarrior 2 due to how the weapons worked. But it has been breaking the game since the third game and most of us, who know who we are talking about, who have probably thousands of hours under our belt in seat time in various Mechwarrior titles, would like to see the game changed in a beneficial way to everyone that will not only up the quality of gameplay, but deepen the skill level tremendously.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 03 August 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

I could only fit 29 DHS, not sure where you fit the other 2. I can't seem to find where to put engine heatsinks...

Anyhow, 3 ERPPCs bring you to 80% heat, if 45=80%, then...the heat capacity is around 55 heat?

4 does shut you down immediately, and you're nearly ready to fire when you power back up with 29 DHS, but not quite. If you're in water....boy, does that cool FAST.

Why can't MWO have functional heatsinks...

Did you use a STD engine and STD armor? It uses a 300 engine, and also packs a Targeting Computer in the head. 19 tons of armor.

Yeah, water cooling was hilariously broken in MW3. I intentionally created builds that were normally waaaaaay too hot, and then had my lance park in water to kill off the AI waves. It was crazytown. I remember one arctic map from MW3 campaign that was SUPER broken, in that it gave you the water cooling effect no matter where you were on the map...I kept restarting the mission at least half a dozen times trying to pack on more and more lasers to exploit it lol.

[Reverendk]

I get that you're trying to spit some fire here, but you're using entirely too many ellipsis. Frankly I won't stand for it as it's not becoming of a player that strives for the highest elo's and avoids all but the most compelling walls of text. You need to make a self assessment before you start dispensing accusations of who didn't said and who did.

Cheers...
G...G
K.R...
The High Elo Low...Drag Collective Gaming Group for...the Family Friendly playing of high intensity team...competitive E-games No profanity gaming clan Clan

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 04 August 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

Did you use a STD engine and STD armor? It uses a 300 engine, and also packs a Targeting Computer in the head. 19 tons of armor.

Yeah, water cooling was hilariously broken in MW3. I intentionally created builds that were normally waaaaaay too hot, and then had my lance park in water to kill off the AI waves. It was crazytown. I remember one arctic map from MW3 campaign that was SUPER broken, in that it gave you the water cooling effect no matter where you were on the map...I kept restarting the mission at least half a dozen times trying to pack on more and more lasers to exploit it lol.

That's 4 crit slots right there. It was the stock XL.

The issue I'm having is jumping 500 Feet into the air....kinda makes it hard to finish the mission.



Anyhow, I find it strange how that heat capacity works. I suppose the heatsinks being cooling before the heat even fills the bar, so additional heatsinks do in essence increase the capacity, but there is still the 40 hard cap for shutting down? While in MWO, the heatsinks don't work fast enough to do that, and the heat is instantly applied to the bar.

45 heat was 80ish% with 29 DHS at any rate.