11 replies to this topic

[Dihm]

Quote

From the DevBlog on the reboot, what do you mean by: “Solve some of the long standing gameplay issues from previous MechWarrior® games?”


[PAUL] For me it’s the open expanses of flat terrain that evolved into circle strafing madness. While it will still be part of the game, our new environments will allow us to curtail that type of gameplay while opening up new avenues of exploration and Information Warfare bringing every class of ‘Mech to the front lines of combat. Yes you will be able to form a team of all assault class ‘Mechs, but you’re going to end up as fodder to a co-ordinated team of mixed class ‘Mechs and an orchestrating commander.

This got me worried and I'm hoping against hope that we don't see nothing but heavies and assaults and get a more even mix, and in some cases the highest tonnage we'll see in a match is a medium or something. A light/medium mech isn't the equal of an assault, unless the Information/Role Warfare is incredibly powerful.

Here's what I'm thinking/hoping; You'll run "Missions" that are going to be like "engagement rules" in the Conquest matches. They will limit your unit composition (number of players per side, total tonnage/highest class of mech, can only have 1 assault, etc). You'll have scouting, defending, raid, assault, etc type of missions that get run. Essentially this is your merc contract for that match. If you win, you get your full contract value, maybe a fraction of it if you lose. Thoughts?

[XxInfernoxX]

I don't think there will be a unit composition limitation, perhaps a tonnage, but I think the Information Warfare comes into play with balancing mechs. By making every mech a viable resource something has to be done, my thoughts are that Assault/Heavy may have limited sensors or rely more on FOV. Where Scout mechs should have full sensor capabilities.

My reasoning is because there is a commander player who I'm assuming will get some sort of overview map and whenever a Scout locates an enemy he would be able to tag it so the heavier mechs get it on their HUD's. That is how I would like to see the system work, actually makes the Scouts usable and the commander important. I would like for the commander to be a player inside a mech, not just some guy chilin' in a dropship.

So like they said, you could see lances completely comprised of behemoths but they will be fighting blind more than likely. I like where they are going with the Information Warfare, it will definitely break up the gameplay and heighten replayability.

[Dihm]

But... mechs classes AREN'T balanced. A light is not balanced with an assault and shouldn't be. There is a reason you could buy a dozen light mechs for the price of one Atlas. Not all lights are scouts anyway. What role do they play or are they rewritten so they have all the scouting bells and whistles? Lots of mediums aren't scouts, so what are their roles? Why bother with a heavy if you have an assault? Why bother with an 85 tonner if you have a 100? Unrestricted matches just don't seem fun or diverse to me.

Without knowing more about the "Role Warfare" I guess it is hard to figure this all out.

[Havoc2]

Dihm, on 17 November 2011 - 08:21 AM, said:

But... mechs classes AREN'T balanced. A light is not balanced with an assault and shouldn't be. There is a reason you could buy a dozen light mechs for the price of one Atlas. Not all lights are scouts anyway. What role do they play or are they rewritten so they have all the scouting bells and whistles? Lots of mediums aren't scouts, so what are their roles? Why bother with a heavy if you have an assault? Why bother with an 85 tonner if you have a 100? Unrestricted matches just don't seem fun or diverse to me.

Without knowing more about the "Role Warfare" I guess it is hard to figure this all out.

'Mech classes may not be balanced, but by developing roles for each 'Mech it will add more emphasis on teamwork and composition than just straight tonnage.
A well formed group of scout, commander and 2 fire-support should have the advantage over 4 fire-support simply because of the ability to out-manouvre.

Now obviously, if the mixed lance are not very good players, the fire support team can still win but advantages should be given to a well-rounded lance.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Well the can easily make light mech worthwhile just by changing up the game mode. Conquest type objective points sprinkled around means that speed matters. You can't be everywhere at once and assaults will get where they are going very slowly. You just have to make the matches and reward system about more than just destroying the enemy.

[Dihm]

Havoc, the problem there is you have mechs like the Charger, which are assault scouts. So you'd still be fielding an entire assault lance filling the Scout/Commander/Fire-support roles you mentioned. No need for light/medium/heavies there.

And TRL, that's exactly what I'm meaning by "missions". Varying the game modes around to ensure that it isn't just a tonnage war. I think it is harder to balance that with unrestricted mech selection, but if they can pull it off, more power to them.

Edited by Dihm, 17 November 2011 - 10:20 AM.

[Havoc2]

Dihm, on 17 November 2011 - 10:13 AM, said:

Havoc, the problem there is you have mechs like the Charger, which are assault scouts. So you'd still be fielding an entire assault lance filling the Scout/Commander/Fire-support roles you mentioned. No need for light/medium/heavies there.

Honestly I don't have a problem with this.

Assault 'Mechs cost more. If someone wants to spend 3 billion C-Bills to field a lance to attack a target, and the defender only spends 1 billion to defend ($ value of 'Mechs) then the attacker has an advantage.
Unless a unit is a Clan RPing defending with the lightest lance/star they bid, people will have/want an advantage in their drops and that means bringing the best tech they can afford.

[Dihm]

That doesn't sound like very diverse gameplay, and is cutting out three tiers of mechs if people want to be "serious". In the "real world" of Battletech you have excellent, logical points. In the reality of a video game, we're all going to easily afford assault mechs after a while, so then we'll see nothing but assaults after a certain point. Which means in the conquest meta-game, if someone is new and hasn't been able to get an assault mech yet, they won't be wanted.

How do you balance this without mech destruction or prohibitive operating costs/money sinks? Those both seem more like stick than carrot.

[Amechwarrior]

Yes, with time comes essentially unlimited resources in most massive games. But what if the Charger is not as good of a scout as a raven? Yes it might fulfill the basic roles as a scout and give scouters access to whatever Infotech perks that role provides. What if its increased armor (without melee its weapons and speed are below most lights) is balanced with lighter scouts getting more scouting equipment. For all we know there may be roles as a "backup scout" like the charger to be scout lance leader - to provide a blocking force. Or "spotter scouts" like the Flea that are first to put eyes on target and then "info scouts" like the Raven come in and relay above average infotech data to the rest of the team.

If everyone in that role can use its different perks, some designs might favor one perk over another. This can be balanced against direct combat effectiveness(armor/guns/etc) to balance use. We can make up a thousand concepts and ideas about this, but we really do not know much about the role-based play. All we do know is they do not want assaults of all kinds to rule the field and game balance should reflect that.

[Rhinehart]

If your mission is convoy defense and the convoy has a ground speed faster than your assault mechs, guess what? That light to medium attacking Lance will simply wait until your convoy leaves you behind, go in, blow it up and then high tail it before you can even get there. You say the convoy would never be stupid enough to leave their protection behind? What if the dropship they need to get on has a hard launch time? The convoy commander might think a mechwarrior wouldn't be stupid enough to bring mechs too slow to keep up with the vehicles he needed to protect.

Never mind the fact that most assault mechs are huge targets. One light mech paints you with a TAG before you can pot him and arrow IV missiles start raining down. Or he NARCS you and suddenly loads of missiles just love your center torso. It's not my Forte' but I've personally known players of both MW3 and MW4 online who made their bread and butter serving as NARC/TAG scouts.

Another example, played a single match against a friend in MW4 online. He brought a Kodiak armed to the teeth for close range battle. I fielded a Cauldron Born with 2 Gauss rifles and a larger than standard engine. My reverse speed was fast enough that I could pick him apart at range before he could get in close enough to use those lovely SMRMS and LBX20 autocannon.

Never assume simply bringing an assault mech is going to win you the match.

[DFDelta]

Rhinehart, on 18 November 2011 - 05:47 PM, said:

Never assume simply bringing an assault mech is going to win you the match.

This.
There is a reason why in MW:LL most vets only take assaults for ***** and giggles, and stick to meds and heavies for serious play.
Assaults have a place there as the anchor of a frontline, heavy artillery or siege breakers, but 80% of the combat is better archieved with a heavy or med.

And this is how balance looks if it is done right IMHO.

Edited by DFDelta, 18 November 2011 - 06:45 PM.

[Fiachdubh]

Back in one of the old MW4 leagues different mission types (recon, raid, assauilt etc) had different total drop tonnages. This made sure that there were planty of light/medium only matches. MWO looks like it could have a somewhat similar system.