Certain Atlases (the K for example; but in general all of them) are useless because others got hardpoint fluffing (an Atlas D-DC is an Atlas D with FEWER weapons to fit the command center; so why does it have more missile hardpoints?) + ECM.
But yes.. just some intelligent design philosophies would be nice.
This really grinds me up... I love the Atlas but I can't help feel that I'm a walking Pinata half the time.. And for a 100 ton "assault".. where is my scary assault loadout? there are some mechs which pack a far meaner punch than the Atlas.. which strikes me as stupid since if that's the case.. what's the point of the Atlas at all?
as you noted I don't get the Variants.. and the Boars Head is just plain stupid. It's useless as a laserboat, and lacks enough balistic or missile HP to make it useful as a true assault. only way it doesn't overheat is if you throw in it's Original XL400 engine.. but then you're easily killed due to a side torso loss.. there are mechs which lasboat and don't overheat like the BH..
I don't know.. The game is really in a weird place now. I've noticed an increase now in LRMS again, less brawling, lots of weird balance issues in the MM (and no my ELO didn't take a nosedive), and overall I find myself playing less due to the frustration of dropping into a fireworks festival...
BaronBastardKiller, on 06 August 2014 - 03:22 AM, said:
This really grinds me up... I love the Atlas but I can't help feel that I'm a walking Pinata half the time.. And for a 100 ton "assault".. where is my scary assault loadout? there are some mechs which pack a far meaner punch than the Atlas.. which strikes me as stupid since if that's the case.. what's the point of the Atlas at all?
as you noted I don't get the Variants.. and the Boars Head is just plain stupid. It's useless as a laserboat, and lacks enough balistic or missile HP to make it useful as a true assault. only way it doesn't overheat is if you throw in it's Original XL400 engine.. but then you're easily killed due to a side torso loss.. there are mechs which lasboat and don't overheat like the BH..
I don't know.. The game is really in a weird place now. I've noticed an increase now in LRMS again, less brawling, lots of weird balance issues in the MM (and no my ELO didn't take a nosedive), and overall I find myself playing less due to the frustration of dropping into a fireworks festival...
In the case of Atlases, the Boar's Head was based on a canon design.
"AS7-D Atlas Danielle
Piloted by Wolf's DragoonsCaptain Danielle Rondema, this modified Atlas carried three medium lasers in each arm, trading away the SRM rack to do so. The additional heat was dissipated by two additional heat sinks that replaced the rear-firing medium lasers."
It still had an AC/20 and the LRM-rack (which was supposed to be 5 tubes as ALL Atlases had 5 tube LRM-20 rapid reload racks except the K; the K replaced the SRM launcher with a larger tube count LRM rack).
Far as the other Atlases, all Atlases had 1 ballistic hardpoint, up to 2 missile hardpoints and with THAT one exception, only up to 4 energy hardpoints. All torso energy hardpoints are REAR mounted to shoot backwards.
I know none of this works in MWO, and the favoritism came with a few things (to include ECM on a mech that doesn't carry it mainly due to the lore reason "there isn't even enough room to properly mount a proper LRM-20"). So instead lets take a minute to look at the Atlases in the source material to make some sense out of them, and to have an idea of what the game could have been like with some intelligent design.
Energy hardpoints and Atlas Cockpit to Dual Cockpit design.
Spoiler
The Atlas in lore has medium lasers that fired 3 times in a firing cycle (1 firing cycle = 1 rating of damage and heat, so firing its lasers 3 times is 1.666666666666667 damage per firing + 1 heat per firing per medium laser, totalling 5 damage and 3 heat).
The Atlas K's ER Large Lasers, they fired twice in a single rating, providing 4 damage on target (with 6 heat, out of 8 damage total and 12 heat). (Inner Sphere Large Lasers are known to fire up to 4 times in a single rating to get 8 damage).
Now with the Atlas K, with hotter weapons you might wonder what the logical sense would be in mounting hotter rear-facing lasers as well. Pulse lasers in lore are rapid fire 'machine gun' lasers so to speak. Instead of 4 heat and 6 damage per beam it varied depending on the variants. The Atlas K's MPL shot count per rating is not mentioned, unfortunately, but they have gone up to '20' per rating from what I had seen. If it is 20, then that's 0.3 damage and 0.2 heat per shot, with an automatic fire (which is very handy considering that it's a rear mounted gun that you can't focus on). So it wasn't actually hotter (sure hotter over time) but very cool and manageable. Especially since you only got 1 to 2 uses out of them in 10 seconds depending on the ruleset, and honestly Solaris VII lore specifically separates itself from Battletech in saying that all mechs are modified to do less damage and draw the fight out as long as possible, so while the ratings are not changed to prevent confusion, the game overall forces more chain firing and the like.
(Continued)Two MPL together at the 20 shot rating make 0.6 damage and 0.4 heat per squeeze, making trying to sneak up on an Atlas (who isn't busy) a very deadly thing to do as a light or medium mech when you consider an Atlas actually had 404 points of armor and a Hunchback had 160 points of armor. Of course, that's the worst case scenario, Atlas K's MPL shot count has never been fluffed and it could easily be something like 6 shots in a 'use' or 3 shots in a use. But the fewer the shots, the higher the damage and heat per shot to fit that rating we go, the harder or more impractical it is to use.
------
Cockpits.
The Atlas D-DC sacrificed the torso lasers as well as lost 1 ton of LRM storage to make room for the weighty equipment involved in its Dual Cockpit design.
Unlike ALL OTHER Atlases who are controlled with the pilot sitting in the middle of the head looking the NOSE, the Atlas D-DC is controlled from the eyeballs. The Right eye is specified as the command chair and the Left eye is specified as the primary cockpit.
Where most dual cockpit setups have one pilot controls the navigation while the other controls the weapon systems, this one gives full control to EITHER pilot but only one can have control at any one time. The primary pilot typically has the controls while the Command Chair has the battlegrid up giving out orders to an entire company. If the primary pilot is killed or knocked out, the commander can take the controls. This could be done in a number of ways in MWO, to include two separate head hitboxes with half armor/structure on each meaning a single headshot would never kill the D-DC.
Ballistics.
Spoiler
It is important to note that aside from the head and wirings on the inner body, the Atlas D and D-DC are identical.
The Atlas D and D-DC's AC/20 fires 15 shots to do 20 damage (1.333333333333333 damage per round; typical of all 100mm ACs of EVERY classification). All 15 shots count as a single use, and the reasoning behind the limited range is the recoil that it produces will jerk on the torso, raising it upward. Its accuracy is significantly better while stationary of course, allowing (and this is covered in TT) it to (within reason) hit targets nearly twice its stated range with accuracy provided the pilot has a decent gunnery skill. In 15 shots, the total 7 heat is divided across 15 meaning each shot generated "0.467 (rounded)" heat per shot. Note the Atlas is only intended to have one autocannon. With 6 ratings per ton of ammunition it was factually 90 shots per ton. The 100mm Deathgiver is an automatic type (has only a cooldown per shot, does not use magazines/cassettes, in MWO's time line it'd fire 1 shot every 0.267 seconds. In FASA's time line it fires 1 shot every 0.667 seconds).
The Atlas RS starts with an AC/10. The variant isn't specified but in the book Binding Force, the Atlas RS there has a 120mm AC/10 that fired 5-6 shots per rating. Keeping consistent most other entries for 120mm, 6 shots fits the 3/6/12 pattern of AC/5 through AC/20 for 120mm, which means the RS's AC/10 does (1.666666666666667 damage) per shot, more than the Atlas's AC/20, but its firing rate is slower and in the time the Atlas D's AC/20 pumps out 15 shots, the Atlas RS will have pumped out 6 (Atlas D thusly doing 20 damage and Atlas RS only doing 10). The AC/10's heat at 6 shots was 2 per shot. At 6 shots per rating it has 10 ratings per ton (60 shots). Its firing rate in MWO would be one shot every 0.4167 seconds given PGI's faster rate of fire given to it. In BT its rate of fire would be 1.67 seconds per shot. Slower, but slightly harder hitting than the AC/20 of the D and D-DC. (At the same caliber, an AC/20 would fire exactly twice as fast as an AC/10).
The Atlas K's Gauss Rifle is especially devastating, 15 damage in a single shot. The Gauss Rifle could not be fired at the same time as its ER Large Lasers, however. (Again, purely book stuff). In MWO it does 45 damage in 10.25 seconds. In BT it would do 15 every 10 seconds with exactly one use hit or miss. Given BT rules on charging the Gauss Rifle, you'd tap its fire key once to charge it (and when charged its capacitors will hold that charge so you can use other weapons after it is charged) and tap it again to fire. The charge could be held indefinitely but the Rifle could easily explode if damaged while charged. It won't explode when not charged.
Now count the tubes here before continuing. How many holes in the left shoulder? 6. How many in the pack on the left? 5.
Missile hardpoints.
Spoiler
The Atlas in lore fired 5 missiles at a time...
"For long ranges, the 'Mech carries a FarFire Maxi-Rack LRM-20 in the left torso that allows it to both fire directly at an enemy target at long range, and to give indirect fire support when needed. Unable to fit a full twenty-tube system on the 'Mech, the FarFire instead launches the missiles in waves of five over the course of ten seconds and carries two tons of reloads for twelve such salvos."
Each missile does "1 damage" which in MWO would be 2 damage if you compare the armor ratios. This combined with MOST mechs not having any form of AMS was pretty decent. However it could not rely on spotting information from other mechs, it does not have a C3 computer system. Instead it uses line of sight exclusively, or pulls up a battlegrid and selects coordinates to send the missiles at like artillery.
Which compared was superior to the lasers (except in the Atlas K's case) and that one LRM-20 outdid its SRM-6 launcher, which only fired once and didn't reload as quickly. Of course its SRMs homed in, too. Only the Ballistic weapon (or the ER LLs of the Atlas K) was better than its 5 tubed LRM launcher.
The Atlas K however sports the only change in missiles. The side pack for LRMs is removed and the SRM rack is replaced with a 10 tube LRM-20. [Very specifically in the MRM [Medium Range Missile] lore, it is mentioned that an SRM-6 and a 10 tube LRM/MRM rack launcher are interchangeable. This is because SRM missiles are fatter, taking more space, and thus the LRM/MRM rack could replace it with ease so long as it was up to 10 tubes].
Meanwhile it should be noted that an Atlas cools with its stock configuration in 15 seconds from an overheat to 0 under nominal temperatures using standard heatsinks. (The same speed as 10 DHS would if thresholds didn't rise). At any one point in time, 50% heat (or 15 units of heat, 1 ER PPC -- it should be noted that ER PPCs in lore do not instantly generate their heat but build it over time) is the beginning of a 3% shutdown risk. Much like any other mech (who usually cool slower), the Atlas cannot generate more than 30 heat at once without a huge risk to itself. Therefore, it is perfectly viable as is if this game was done correctly and actually looked at the lore.
But we have rising thresholds (which when you add heatsinks you are adding cooling over time which thusly helps your mech fit all of its queued firepower into 10 seconds, in MWO you are adding cooling over time AND maximum heat/alpha potential). We also have PGI's belief that "1 AC/20 use in tabletop must be 1 shot" rather than 1 AC/20 use is 1 AC/20 use.
(For the Victor 1 AC/20 use is actually 100 shots, for the largest IS AC/20 it's actually 4 shots, and thus it can be anywhere from 4 to 100 shots for an IS AC/20; the typical range is in the area of 100mm (15 shots) to 120mm (12 shots).)
And so, the balance of things is pretty out of whack. With each patch PGI conjures up its own balance, and while this makes some weapons more practical against mechs (AC/2s for example), the purpose of the weapons is getting increasingly warped and lost.
In trying the MWO meta in BT, it doesn't work. Even with a perfect 0/0 pilot who can make jumpjet landings with only one leg from the PRONE position while under fire, the weapons are virtually worthless. I've tried many combinations. Twin PPC + AC/5 with max armor, JJs, Endo, etc. for a Shadowhawk. LRM boats. 6 SRM-6s (kept overheating), 5 Streak-6s (rarely would fire, tried it again with Streak-4s and streak-2s and it turned out to be best and most viable to carry Streak 2s). Every feasible meta in MWO failed in BT as absolutely worthless. Even changing to Solaris Rules, these mechs were being creamed by Locusts, being creamed by STOCK mechs, being creamed by tanks, jeeps with SRM-launchers, just..absolutely worthless.
But it's meta here, and it's entirely due to PGI's own version of balancing.
More on missiles; particularly minimum range
Spoiler
Oh, and don't forget even at 30 meters an Inner Sphere LRM can still do full damage, the minimum range is NOT an arming range but a to hit chance. I had a tank with LRM-5s and hit 3 out of many targets with the LRM-5s as well as killing the Atlas as seen in this image. Supposedly, unless "Hotloaded," LRMs are actually NOT loaded into the launcher until after told to fire, hence that minimum range (it's because the target is close enough to see the missiles being loaded and dodge). When hotloaded however, the missiles could detonate if the launcher is hit. Clan mech LRMs are always hot-loaded. (There's another balancing technique right there, but failure to look at lore leaves us with many missed balancing opportunities).
The Clan / IS Gauss + PPC meta.
Spoiler
Now when you consider the lore, the ER PPC + Gauss meta the Clans are using would never happen. 2 ER PPCs at the same time is too much heat (30 heat hit at any point in time before it is cooled would be an instant shutdown; of course ER PPCs and PPCs charge up; ER PPCs with a shorter charge up time thus no minimum range, but this charge up spreads the heat so that a single ER PPC can't trigger a shutdown. How much it spreads varies with the variant).
ER PPC + Gauss at the same time is too much energy draw. Over 10 seconds it's perfectly fine, shot one at a time. You can also easily make 4 ER PPCs work in 10 seconds. But at the same time the engine would shutdown and the heat would cause the Gauss Rifles to explode, rapidly disabling the mech if not instantly killing it.
-------------
But all of this is just some food for thought.
If only if PGI had some foresight, or at the very least read some of the manuals with an open mind. The basic Solaris rulebook doesn't cover it, and in fact is very screwed to begin with.
Just put some more work into it to make it pretty.
However I kept a copy, and I'll be starting my own little blog thingy. Just churning out ideas after ideas. Sooner or later I'll try my own hand at a good Battletech mech sim. I'm keeping stuff like this for when that time comes.
I think, the most of the "BT-lover" player always forgot one major thing: This is MWO, not BT. Even if it looks similar from the far distance, it is a whole different thing, and this will never change. The rules here are made by Devs, not by your Sourcererbooks.. You can accept it, and enjoy it somehow and play it too, or don't accept/enjoy it and go away, to search an other games..
But, I think, if you always see everything here thru your "BT-Glasses" you will never enjoy it.. Every player have here a few or many ideas, how could be this game better.. But, none of us, and nothing can change that one major thing:
This is MWO, and the rules are made by Devs..
Please, try to accept this, and find here something, that a little bit enjoy you... anything... or just go away... But, someone will miss you,.. surely..
but that's my point.. if the BH is kinda based on lore, then why didn't they base ALL the other atlas's on the book lol...
Add to the fact the main points as you menton about weapon use and heat means that the Atlas just ends up a regular ole big mech with nothing special about it at all.
LocationOn your six, chipping away at your rear armour.
Posted 20 August 2014 - 02:36 PM
Sky Hawk, on 06 August 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:
This is MWO, not BT [...] The rules here are made by Devs, not by your Sourcererbooks..
You were here back in the day; you should remember that the devs said they would make a game as close as possible to BattleTech lore. It was what made me plunk down $120 for a Legendary Founder pack.
Does anyone want to argue that the current MWO is "as close as possible" to BT lore? No?
You were here back in the day; you should remember that the devs said they would make a game as close as possible to BattleTech lore. It was what made me plunk down $120 for a Legendary Founder pack.
Does anyone want to argue that the current MWO is "as close as possible" to BT lore? No?
They said a lot of things... Although I'm sad to see Red go...
3
Koniving, on 04 August 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:
