13 replies to this topic

[Ghillie Dhu]

So I get that IS light mechs are different from Clan light mechs and viva le difference as the say !
But in "canon" what was the role did the Clans use light mechs for ? As my Kit-Fox struggles to keep up with the other Clan mech, the Timber Wolf and Storm Crow, Heavy and Medium mech respectively are as fast as me . . . If it was a support role as i expect, why do some variants come as stock with no ecm and ams ... ?

[Sug]

Codenamed Puma by Inner Sphere forces that first engaged it, the Adder is a light Clan OmniMech that serves in a direct or an indirect fire-support role in most of its configurations.

The Kit Fox is a light Clan OmniMech with long-range combat as a primary focus, earning it the Inner Sphere codename of Uller, after the Norse god of archery.[1][5][6] Rather than emphasize speed, the Kit Fox emphasizes armor and firepower.

[Petard]

You can support in more ways than with just ecm and ams, the kit fox is able to mount several pretty lethal loadouts, can be a very dangerous mech popping out from behind the heavies to unload srm's, lbx's, and ppc's...

[Gralzeim]

There's more to support than just being an ECM bubble. If you're as fast as they are, then that makes keeping pace with them easy, rather than a group getting all spread out with stragglers that get picked apart by roving kill teams, like what tends to happen with IS mechs. You also have a lot more potential firepower than a IS light. Keep that in mind.

That being said, in canon most lights didn't run around at 160kph all the time. 90ish would be considered 'fast'. So the Kit Fox and Adder would still fulfill the same role other lights fill. Fire support, recon, hit and run, raids, harassing.

It's just that in MWO, IS lights can go much faster than their stock incarnations.

Edit: Petard, don't forget UACs as well. Those are nasty, and Clan lights can actually mount a couple of them without too much trouble.

Edited by Gralzeim, 05 August 2014 - 11:08 PM.

[Thunder Child]

Also, Logistics. The small ones are easier to put together. Less parts. And the Postage and Handling fees on anything over 35 tons is ridiculous.

Seriously though, if we had a basic Community Warfare based loosely on traditional BT Campaigns, Lights suddenly make a whole lot more sense. Smaller Dropships required, easier to load and repair. Smaller bases of operations, as the parts and ammo are not needed in such a great quantity. Alas, we have Team Solaris...

And regarding the fast comment, the "actual" Scout lights were fast. Locusts, Firemoths, etc. The Lights we have in game are mostly harrassers, rather than Scouts.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Clan lights usually take on the role of fire support. They do have some speedy lights meant for recon but the lights we got are meant to be weapons platforms. You'll notice that a lot of the builds have huge weapons on them. Looking through some of the Kit Fox builds I see things like UAC10s and Guass rifles. The Adder Prime has two ER PPCs another has two LRM20s. The idea is to stick with the group and add extra firepower.

Unfortunately, in this game moving at only 107kph is really dangerous for such a lightly armored mech. So while they do pack more punch than their IS counterparts, the IS lights are safer.

[Koniving]

Ghillie Dhu, on 05 August 2014 - 10:48 PM, said:

Why do some variants come as stock with no ecm and ams ... ?

Reasons about stock variants not coming with ECM and AMS as well as some more about Kitfoxes and Adders.

Spoiler

Actually almost all mechs come as stock without AMS. ECM in Battletech isn't as useful as it is in MWO, there's also costs and the rarity of the technology. For the most part only House Liao of the Inner Sphere (Capellan Confederation) truly had real access to Guardian ECM. The Clans had Angel ECM but it, too, was rare, was 2 tons instead of 1.5 (or MWO's 1 ton), counted as 2 ECMs in counter ECM warfare, and made streaks fire like dead-fire rockets as well (while the Inner Sphere version could not do anything to streaks). Clan society actually looks down on ECM use, however. It is an underhanded tool used typically to counter another underhanded tool, Clan BAP.

While the tabletop sheets have front and back, for the Adder its armored cowl (turtle shell) actually provded most of its protection. The underside was very soft in comparison (with the armor of the 'rear'), meaning that when under fire they would tilt forward to have the shields take that damage. In MWO that has no effect due to hitbox design.

The Kitfox (and the Adder), admittedly, had no torso twist at all. Thus fighting close range was actually not a good idea, and so they would stand back and use their great visibility to hit things at range. The Kitfox itself was very tall, very thin and quite lanky, making it difficult to hit. Don't forget that mechs could crouch and even go prone. The Kitfox itself only went to a crouched position, but the Adder could literally fold its legs under its cowl and lay down like a snake to wait for its prey.

Spoiler

Unfortunately 8 meters tall in MWO would be the Locust's height, where none of the mechs actually follow BT's size charts (as the Atlas itself is over 17 meters tall, where in BT it's roughly 13 meters tall). Otherwise the Kitfox would be a fair bit smaller, but the 50 ton Nova would be slightly smaller still, and it goes on.

So as you can imagine not everything from lore will fit in MWO. It just isn't built the same and the design isn't the same either. Work with it as best as you can. However, I've found the KitFox to be more than capable of brawling and rapid kills with or without ECM. One tip I do have is to put ACs in the shoulders instead of the arms, always keep the Lower Arm Actuators active and handy so that you can use your arms to their full range of motion.

I personally use SRMs or Streaks, MGs, 1 AC at times and ECM for brawlers. For snipers, ER PPC and UAC/2 makes a good combination.


Shot by Lordred.
That's my Kitfox duking it out one on one against an Atlas. UAC/5 and LBx-5 cannons, MG and twin flamers.
(I'm using the environment for cover as I try to get the Atlas to overheat before I attack head-on again). Btw, that's a gas station in the background.


I actually favor the Adder over the Kitfox; much easier to get a diverse loadout due to fewer slot limitations. Even if you actually barely get more weight available to use.

Edited by Koniving, 06 August 2014 - 09:43 AM.

[focuspark]

My Puma is one of my best KDR 'mechs.

[xMintaka]

The Adder and Kit Fox demand a drastically different playstyle to the typical "boom n zoom", or rather "pew n zoom" of IS lights.

If you have any experience in a 2x ERLL Raven or 2x PPC Cicada, then the style of play won't come as such a shock to you. However, if you're used to boating MLas and destroying opponents up close, then you are likely to encounter some troubles while you adapt.

Once you get the hang of it though, the Clan light mechs are superb. Very unforgiving due to low armour, but immensely satisfying to play.

All my KFX are geared towards long range, as the lore suggests. With appropriate timing it can be very beneficial to swing away from the main group and poke along the flanks, but generally sticking with your group is best. Take shots when you can and provide ECM cover, then single out damaged targets and take them down.

The Adder is a somewhat different beast that I've geared for primarily short range combat. They make great ambush hunters, as the IS name of "Puma" suggests. Other than that, I've not played them enough to offer much advice.

[Redshift2k5]

To say you are outrun by Timberwolves is not true, since all Clan Light mechs are faster than clan Heavies & faster than the Nova, and equal in speed to the Stormcrow.

I have had excellent success piloting a Kit Fox with 2 ERLL, 2 clan MGs, and an ECM. I've also been killed by surprise by Kit Foxes toting larger weapons such as an Ultra AC/5 and backup. They are nimble and maneuverable, allowing you to really get your shots on-target and get back into cover and are great as close support by providing ECM

ECM is not stock on any of he Kit Foxes, but it is optional equipment on all three of them by swapping the right arm omnipod for the one with ECM and triple AMS.

The clan XL engine and universal free CASE is more survivable than an IS light, and generally makes the Kit Fox play a lot more like a 40 ton mech than a 35 ton one.

[Koniving]

I haven't churned out many Clan mech vids, but here's a noteworthy one to add here.

Loadout was ECM, 3 AMS, ER ML, 2 MG, SRMs with a Firestarter trial-mech passenger.

It kills a couple of much nastier mechs head to head.

[SaltBeef]

Pull the trigger and see if it shoots it own center torso in that vision mode!

[Konril]

Interesting discussion so far. But if we are talking about canon I think this might be worth mentioning.

Most mechs in the universe aren't owned by their pilots, but provided by the army they happen to be fighting for. Which means if you were a regular inner sphere or clan pilot, you would be using whatever your commanding officer decided to hand to you. At least from the perspective of a house lord, the the cheapest thing in the mech just happens to be its pilot.

At least according to the info on sarna.net, the c-bill costs of the prime mechs look like this:
Kit Fox: 5,368,837 C-bills
Adder: 7,021,688 C-bills
Nova: 11,586,250 C-bills
Stormcrow: 14,771,112 C-bills
Summoner: 21,320,834 C-bills
Timber Wolf: 24,233,124 C-bills
Warhawk: 26,425,323 C-bills
Dire Wolf: 29,350,000 C-bills

Even if we sign up for a house or clan, we are still solo mercenaries in MWO. A Timber Wolf would be expensive, but well worth the cost since we can't really pilot two mechs at once. But instead if we were commanders that could hire good pilots to fight along side us with the mechs we own and matches aren't restricted to 12 vs 12, that Timber Wolf is going to start looking like a bad investment. A pair of Adders would tear a single Timber Wolf apart and cost considerably less to field. (Although with the way the clans fight in "canon," one of the Adders would very likely get totaled in the process.)

So at least in cannon lore, light and medium mechs are built for any role you can think of and often used when heavier alternatives are just too expensive.