51 replies to this topic

[Lefty Lucy]

Sandpit, on 06 August 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

but that's always fallen on deaf ears

I think it's more that it requires coding, which has never been PGI's strong suit.

[Willard Phule]

Sandpit, on 06 August 2014 - 02:51 PM, said:

No, you seem to think that any time anyone corrects you, that they disagree with everything you've said and get hostile.

I've NEVER said 25 matches is enough
I've NEVER said new players shouldn't have the Elos deflated (which I pushed for on twitter AND here)
I've NEVER said new players should mix with vets

I've said the exact opposite for years now. But statements like "new players have their Elos inflated" is just inaccurate. They don't have them inflated. I don't know where you've seen that?
They have their Elos deflated to start, then they go from there. There's no inflation or deflation from that point on that I know of. I've never seen anything indicating that.

To paint someone as "not caring" about NPE and such especially after they've spent hours putting together guides, helping new players in game, helping new recruits in unit, etc. because they don't agree with you is ridiculous.

Not shaking your tree, dude. There are very few things we agree on but this is one of them. Not sure if 100 is the right number but...and this is just a personal feeling...it feels about right. Although, if they started at the bottom and worked their way up, the really good ones probably wouldn't take that long to hit the mid-range. Granted...I'm not sure if the "really good" new players should get that kind of a break cut to them...Lord knows we've had to carry their relatives long enough. Maybe they should have to eat a crap sandwich for a while until they can play with the big boys.

Sandpit, on 06 August 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

I suggested a long time ago to extend cadets to about 100 matches. If you can't get a grasp of this game within 100 matches (approximately 500 minutes or roughly 8 hours) then you're right where you need to be as far as Elo goes.

I also suggested a Solaris Training queue as well. All new players drop in there for their first 25 matches, they can then opt into the "regular queues" or choose to stay in Solaris for up to 100 matches. They cannot purchase or customize while they're in Solaris but they do accumulate cbills and exp.

Then vet a few veteran players, let them drop as instructors into that queue. They'd be required to play xx matches per week in that queue but they get a free unique camo, forum and game badge, a weekly MC allotment, but earn cbills at a reduced rate to prevent and discourage farming. Between vetting and reduced earnings it should prevent anyone who just wants to stomp newbs from getting in there. Even then, self-police for instructors who aren't actually instructing and helping, but jsut playing for their rewards.

That right there improves the NPE drastically, gives a new player friendly environment to learn the game, and offers live help in the form of instructors to answer questions, give advice, etc.

but that's always fallen on deaf ears

Heh. That makes sense...and we both know what making sense does around here. PGI has no interest in making sense.

I don't know about that whole "Vet players as instructors bit" though. But, hey, if you want to volunteer to drive the short bus...who am I to argue?

I'm just sick and tired of having to carry a bunch of mouthbreathers that can't shoot without standing still, zooming in and getting rolled over. Half the time I get in front of them to draw attention away from them long enough for them to figure out how to unzoom (and taking all their fire straight up my backside) and the other half I spend standing behind them, stealing their kills and waiting to get rolled myself.

[Sandpit]

Willard Phule, on 06 August 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

I'm just sick and tired of having to carry a bunch of mouthbreathers that can't shoot without standing still, zooming in and getting rolled over. Half the time I get in front of them to draw attention away from them long enough for them to figure out how to unzoom (and taking all their fire straight up my backside) and the other half I spend standing behind them, stealing their kills and waiting to get rolled myself.

which is exactly why some of us were so pissed about groups. We got tired of the same thing. Don't have to worry about it in the group queue nearly as much if ever.

[Voidgazer]

I've played thousands of matches. It is obvious that the matchmaker indeed will stack the teams in an attempt to keep your W:L ratio around 1. The most likely reason they do this is because it is impossible to keep every person's W:L ratio at that number if you simply rely on the system attempting to balance the teams every time. You would have a wide variety of ratios due to the inability of a system based on statistics to effectively estimate outcomes when two "even" teams are matched. This means the system is forced to manipulate sides to force outcomes. We will continue to have unbalanced games until the developers decide to dump the idea of everybody having even win/loss ratios. I, for one, don't care about W:L ratios. I simply want balanced games. The system predetermining most of my wins or losses makes me feel like my ability is meaningless. I could be the best player in the world or the worse player in the world and still have a W:L ratio of around 1. It doesn't matter how good you are if the system puts you on a completely inferior team- you will still lose.

[Willard Phule]

Sandpit, on 06 August 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

which is exactly why some of us were so pissed about groups. We got tired of the same thing. Don't have to worry about it in the group queue nearly as much if ever.

Yet another reason I'm glad I left my Clan and went to the solo queue exclusively. Granted, I'm tired of having to carry "Elite Veterans" all the time but....years of being an NCO in the Army helps to dull the pain. Man...some of these guys...I'm awful glad they don't have live ammo...

[Willard Phule]

Voidgazer, on 06 August 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

I've played thousands of matches. It is obvious that the matchmaker indeed will stack the teams in an attempt to keep your W:L ratio around 1. The most likely reason they do this is because it is impossible to keep every person's W:L ratio at that number if you simply rely on the system attempting to balance the teams every time. You would have a wide variety of ratios due to the inability of a system based on statistics to effectively estimate outcomes when two "even" teams are matched. This means the system is forced to manipulate sides to force outcomes. We will continue to have unbalanced games until the developers decide to dump the idea of everybody having even win/loss ratios. I, for one, don't care about W:L ratios. I simply want balanced games. The system predetermining most of my wins or losses makes me feel like my ability is meaningless. I could be the best player in the world or the worse player in the world and still have a W:L ratio of around 1. It doesn't matter how good you are if the system puts you on a completely inferior team- you will still lose.

Or....it could be a holdover from when they decided to add the whole "Elo" thing and matchmaker as a temporary band-a id....which is, in fact, the case. It was never intended to be permanent...sort of like "Ghost Heat." Since the end result is supposed to be a minimally viable product, as long as something seems to be working in the short term, we should just keep patching the hell out of it until it doesn't even resemble what we cobbled together in the first place....that seems to be PGI's Standard Operating Procedure.

Don't misunderstand me, I hate everything they've done with the title. PGI makes me gag. But, they've got a monopoly on it. It sucks. But it is what it is.

On the bright side, I still play tabletop. I'm running a unit called "PGI" and I've got a bunch of mouthbreathing derps named "Byran," "Paul," and "Russ" in my unit. At any given point, they make the most ignorant decisions possible. And the guys I play with (all MW:O players) tear them apart.

[Sandpit]

Willard Phule, on 06 August 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

Yet another reason I'm glad I left my Clan and went to the solo queue exclusively. Granted, I'm tired of having to carry "Elite Veterans" all the time but....years of being an NCO in the Army helps to dull the pain. Man...some of these guys...I'm awful glad they don't have live ammo...

yea but you take your chances with the PUG lottery.

The thing is you can't fault new players.
You can't fault newish players

This game has a lot of complicated mechanics (thanks Paul), a steep learning curve, and no real way to practice other than duking it out live against other players. New players aren't going to know how to use private matches and aren't going to have a friends list together in order to get one going in the first place.

I still say PGI should start new players at the very bottom of the Elo bucket and let them play their way up. That will eliminate most of the stomps. They'll naturally progress, win more often, have a more enjoyable experience, and by the time they "level off" into their Elo bracket, they'll have stockpiled a little money, a few mechs, and at least know the basics of the game.

Willard Phule, on 06 August 2014 - 06:02 PM, said:

On the bright side, I still play tabletop. I'm running a unit called "PGI" and I've got a bunch of mouthbreathing derps named "Byran," "Paul," and "Russ" in my unit. At any given point, they make the most ignorant decisions possible. And the guys I play with (all MW:O players) tear them apart.

ever run TT games on megamek?

[Voidgazer]

I believe those who think the system attempts to balance teams every game is mistaken. If it does indeed attempt to match teams, then why do I often see one team packed with mostly low-skilled player matched against one with mostly high-skilled players? This occurs quite often for me. From what I can tell, the matching system attempts to determine your skill level and will try to put you in an even game if you are at exactly a 1:1 win loss ratio. If that ratio starts becoming unbalanced, it will place you in an appropriate stacked team that will have a much higher or lower chance of victory, depending on whether you need to win or lose to get your ratio back to 1. Of course, this only applies to drops without groups. In group drops, you have more control over your outcome because the matching system can't stack the teams as easily. The larger your group, the less effective the matching system would be.

[Noth]

Voidgazer, on 06 August 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:

I believe those who think the system attempts to balance teams every game is mistaken. If it does indeed attempt to match teams, then why do I often see one team packed with mostly low-skilled player matched against one with mostly high-skilled players? This occurs quite often for me. From what I can tell, the matching system attempts to determine your skill level and will try to put you in an even game if you are at exactly a 1:1 win loss ratio. If that ratio starts becoming unbalanced, it will place you in an appropriate stacked team that will have a much higher or lower chance of victory, depending on whether you need to win or lose to get your ratio back to 1. Of course, this only applies to drops without groups. In group drops, you have more control over your outcome because the matching system can't stack the teams as easily. The larger your group, the less effective the matching system would be.

It has everything to do with how large the span of ELO the match maker is looking for. If it has widened it, then it find a suitable player because of the widening and throws him on team A and then another person enters the queue that fits in the original and is more skilled and gets thrown on team b. SO yes it cares, but as time goes on, it cares less and less.

[Willard Phule]

Sandpit, on 06 August 2014 - 06:07 PM, said:

ever run TT games on megamek?

We tried but...well, to us geriatrics...technology is confusing and frightening.

Seriously, though, I like megamek. It's pretty cool as far as far as tournament rules are concerned, but, we have a lot of "house rules" that make more sense (yeah, I know...logic and BT don't mix)...

Besides, it's funner to mix beer and BT...stuff gets lost in the mix, then found 10 minutes later...and hilarity ensues...

[H Seldon]

Yeah, I've had a few stinkers. Got headshot in a DW, did only 80 damage. When DWs first came out, got taken out by LRMs hitting only CT. And another time was in Charlie lance on River City, was abandoned and did not hold up very well trying to catch up to the group. So it's really hard to judge other players. But I usually admit when I play poorly during a match. Or congratulate the guy that gets a headshot on me.

[Davers]

When I solo drop in my mediums (my most played weight class) I get really good, close fights. Lots of 12-9 and 12-11 matches. But when I drop into less played weight classes I see far more 'match swings'